Who's currently on T propionate?

[Jason Sypolt]

I've been experimenting with combining enanthate and propionate so that the degree of hormonal variation can be adjusted independently of the average dose. I've liked the results, but the difference is subtle enough that I'm not sure it's worth the extra effort.

I don't understand the purpose of the blends that some pharmacies offer. There is fear over patents and justification for compounding but using grapseed oil is enough of a difference. Some combine DHEA, Anastrozole, etc. and it's silly to do that because you can't independently dose. The same applies with the blended eaters.

And the amount of Prop in the pre-made blends looks pretty low. I doubt you would feel much from it.

It sounds like you combine from separate products. That's what I would do and just use the Prop when I wanted a boost.

Speaking of boosters, Defy started offering a testosterone nasal gel that can be prescribed PRN to supplement primary treatment. I haven't tried it yet. Something like that would probably be more convenient since it comes in a pen and you can keep it in your pocket.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Speaking of boosters, Defy started offering a testosterone nasal gel that can be prescribed PRN to supplement primary treatment. I haven't tried it yet. Something like that would probably be more convenient since it comes in a pen and you can keep it in your pocket.

This is good news. I'll have to ask about it at my next appointment.

.... And if your SHBG is low then you have 2 rollercoasters each day. ...

I'd like to see this myth buried once and for all. What will it take to persuade you that SHBG does not influence the absorption side of injections, which is what causes the observed half-life of testosterone esters?

 

[Nomad]

Yes. And if your SHBG is low then you have 2 rollercoasters each day. I cannot stress enough the importance of SHBG in a decision to use a fast ester.

For context, I would inject 15mg at 8am. By 1pm, (I have the results somewhere) my Total T was back down to 400s.

Then I would inject 15mg in the afternoon. Same feeling but I never had the second lab draw since it was so late and they were closed 4-5 hours after the afternoon injection. That's 30mg a day of Prop which is really a lot for TRT.

This part is a personal preference. I didn't mind daily injections for T when I used to need it for low SHBG and I do it now for GH Peptides, but twice a day surprisingly interfered with my life in trying to work around the same time every afternoon.

would you consider prop daily better for those with high SHGB? I’m on like day 4 now. I don’t feel it kick in like most experience. Have had morning wood the last two mornings at least. But, I may have to increase dose to .25 daily from .20 to closer match the 200mg a week I was getting from test C.

 

[equel]

Yes. And if your SHBG is low then you have 2 rollercoasters each day. I cannot stress enough the importance of SHBG in a decision to use a fast ester.

For context, I would inject 15mg at 8am. By 1pm, (I have the results somewhere) my Total T was back down to 400s.

Then I would inject 15mg in the afternoon. Same feeling but I never had the second lab draw since it was so late and they were closed 4-5 hours after the afternoon injection. That's 30mg a day of Prop which is really a lot for TRT.

This part is a personal preference. I didn't mind daily injections for T when I used to need it for low SHBG and I do it now for GH Peptides, but twice a day surprisingly interfered with my life in trying to work around the same time every afternoon.

Thats interesting.

I had 8 shbg latest reading. 26 hours after 20mg prop shot = 26nmol, which is high, range is like 8-29.

 

[Cataceous]

...
I had 8 shbg latest reading. 26 hours after 20mg prop shot = 26nmol, which is high, range is like 8-29.

The rate at which you absorb an injected ester like propionate determines serum testosterone. This rate is virtually independent of SHBG. End of story.

The myth that SHBG affects ester half-life has its roots in various things: If total testosterone is held constant then lower SHBG does mean higher free T. Consumption/excretion of testosterone is proportional to free T. Thus someone inferred that low-SHBG guys must be "peeing out" their testosterone faster than others, meaning a shorter effective half-life. Further "evidence" was found in those whose SHBG happened to drop quite a bit while on an unchanging dose of testosterone; they measured total testosterone and saw that it dropped as well.

But these observations are misinterpreted. First, those on TRT do not have fixed total testosterone. In fact it's free testosterone that is fairly fixed. Think of it this way: You're taking in a fixed amount of exogenous testosterone every week. At steady state you have to be using/excreting exactly the same amount every week. Otherwise you'd be building up or depleting testosterone in the body, which is not steady state. As noted, the rate of use and excretion of testosterone is proportional to free testosterone. The constant of proportionality is related to underlying metabolism, and probably changes slowly, if at all. Suppose your SHBG suddenly changed dramatically. What happens at the new steady state? You must still be excreting the same amount of testosterone each week. Thus free testosterone must be unchanged after the transition, and total testosterone adjusts to preserve this level of free T at the new SHBG.

This also explains the drop in total testosterone when SHBG falls while dose remains the same. Free testosterone initially wants to rise, but this "drains off" total testosterone until there's a new equilibrium with the same free T, but lower total testosterone. The Tru-T calculator can be used in reverse to find the new expected level of total testosterone.

 

[Stanfoo]

@Cataceous what is the reason for low shbg guys having less effective response to trt? people keep saying it goes through them faster which you stated is incorrect

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous what is the reason for low shbg guys having less effective response to trt? people keep saying it goes through them faster which you stated is incorrect

Here are some ideas that have been floated:

• For a given level of free testosterone, lower SHBG leads to higher free estradiol; the low-SHBG guy naturally has a lower fT:fE2 ratio, and we know that trying to regulate E2 with aromatase inhibitors can be tricky.

• My assumption above about the stability of underlying testosterone metabolism could be incorrect. For me it's been stable over a period of five years, with SHBG varying from low 40s nMol/L to upper 20s. But if SHBG does affect this metabolism in a manner independent of free testosterone then it's possible low-SHBG guys could be relatively high excreters. Nonetheless, on steady-state TRT one still cannot excrete more or faster than what's being put in.

• There are SHBG receptors that rely on SHBG to deliver testosterone. Low SHBG could negatively affect this. So far I have not seen anyone flesh out the possible effects of this, nor discuss the relative importance of it compared to delivery of testosterone to androgen receptors.

 

[Gman86]

What’s interesting is that on here, having a low SHBG seems like it not ideal, and makes it trickier to dial in. Seems like low SHBG guys have to really work on keeping E2 down, they may need to use ai’s more than high SHBG guys, and they may need to inject very frequently. The reason I say it’s interesting is, because dr Lichten goes against all these things and actually prefers his guys to have a low SHBG. And he has his men on either pellets, or injecting twice a week. For some reason, his low SHBG guys don’t need to inject every day to feel stable. Here’s an interview he did explaining his methods. Maybe for low SHBG guys injecting very frequently and messing with ai’s, and keeping E2 extremely low isn’t the best approaches. They’re just the only approaches we’re currently used to seeing. Maybe there’s something to dr lichten’s methods of instead lowering the testosterone dose a bit, and supplementing the protocol with deca, which will have 5 positive effects that I can think of. Lowering T dose will mean less E2. Adding the deca will raise T levels to where they were prior to lowering T, but will keep E2 down due to deca aromatizing at 1/4 the rate of testosterone. That’s one. 2nd, it binds to SHBG a bit, thus allowing for higher free T levels. This also will help improve the free T to E ratio, eliminating the need for an ai. 3rd, it’s a very long esther, which could maybe be part of the reason why his patients with low SHBG levels can get away with injecting twice per week. 4th, it is a better anti-inflammatory than prednisone, and it also has amazing joint lubricating effects, as well as improves bone mineralization/ density. 5th, it can increase dopamine, which I assume is part of the reason many men report an increased sense of well being on deca, thus improving the chances of a guy feeling “dialed in”.

I could be wrong, but I think in the future, deca is going to be as commonly prescribed with testosterone as HCG is, and will mostly eliminate the need to even consider using an ai.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Here are some ideas that have been floated:

• For a given level of free testosterone, lower SHBG leads to higher free estradiol; the low-SHBG guy naturally has a lower fT:fE2 ratio, and we know that trying to regulate E2 with aromatase inhibitors can be tricky.

• My assumption above about the stability of underlying testosterone metabolism could be incorrect. For me it's been stable over a period of five years, with SHBG varying from low 40s nMol/L to upper 20s. But if SHBG does affect this metabolism in a manner independent of free testosterone then it's possible low-SHBG guys could be relatively high excreters. Nonetheless, on steady-state TRT one still cannot excrete more or faster than what's being put in.

• There are SHBG receptors that rely on SHBG to deliver testosterone. Low SHBG could negatively affect this. So far I have not seen anyone flesh out the possible effects of this, nor discuss the relative importance of it compared to delivery of testosterone to androgen receptors.

This makes sense, but it assumes that a steady state exists. It may not due to various reasons, or ever, particularly on a case by case basis. The fact is that no one knows how all of these processes work. I am actually a bad example because the way my body works is considerably messed up from being prescribed isotretinoin as a teen.

What I can tell you in my own case based on multiple lab draws in the same day is that Total T fluctuates 1000 points in an 8 hour period with Free following proportionately on daily Prop. There is a spike in serum T as you would expect and then it simply isn't present mere hours later.

This repeated on a smaller scale of 200-300 points intra-day on daily Cypionate.

I had an unknown/invisible thyroid problem fixed, high RT3, and over 8 months on Liothyronine my SHBG doubled from 12 to 25. Now I take Enanthate TIW instead of QD. My Total T labs now come back almost always within 100 points of each other with Free T almost identical. Sometimes the results are exactly the same.

There are certainly other variables that were not examined and tested, but one variable that did change and was tested was SHBG. So no, a definite conclusion linking SHBG as the cause cannot be drawn from that, but it was observed and present. On the other hand, dismissing it as a myth is equally inconclusive, just as some dismiss the importance of RT3 as a myth.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

would you consider prop daily better for those with high SHGB? I’m on like day 4 now. I don’t feel it kick in like most experience. Have had morning wood the last two mornings at least. But, I may have to increase dose to .25 daily from .20 to closer match the 200mg a week I was getting from test C.

I don't personally think that Prop had a place as a primary treatment. Many people report feeling their best with stability and balance. It would make a nice booster though as I said above.

I don't use it - I take Enanthate and supplement a 5% cream applied to the scrotum. For close to the cost of Prrop and doing yet another series of injections in a week I am on Nandrolone. And I could not be happier with the results.

 

[Cataceous]

This makes sense, but it assumes that a steady state exists. It may not due to various reasons, or ever, particularly on a case by case basis. The fact is that no one knows how all of these processes work. I am actually a bad example because the way my body works is considerably messed up from being prescribed isotretinoin as a teen.

What I can tell you in my own case based on multiple lab draws in the same day is that Total T fluctuates 1000 points in an 8 hour period with Free following proportionately on daily Prop. There is a spike in serum T as you would expect and then it simply isn't present mere hours later.

This repeated on a smaller scale of 200-300 points intra-day on daily Cypionate.
...

In this context "steady state" doesn't mean "static". It just means that results of every injection cycle are essentially the same. Given what I've seen with my results, I'm not surprised at what you see with daily propionate. On the other hand, the variation you're reporting with daily cypionate is not expected. With EOD enanthate my results were such that my Tru-T free testosterone was always proportional to dose, within a few percent. It didn't matter if the test was immediately pre-injection or the day before/after an injection.

In any case, there are various factors that affect the absorption rates of injected esters, which in turn affect the apparent half-lives. These include the carrier oils used as well as the particular injection sites.

 

[Nomad]

I don't personally think that Prop had a place as a primary treatment. Many people report feeling their best with stability and balance. It would make a nice booster though as I said above.

I don't use it - I take Enanthate and supplement a 5% cream applied to the scrotum. For close to the cost of Prrop and doing yet another series of injections in a week I am on Nandrolone. And I could not be happier with the results.

I’m interested in the nandrolone approach to boost TRT does defy prescribe it? Does it affect your libido and erection quality, while looking up the drug last night I read a lot of “deca-dick”

 

[Jason Sypolt]

I’m interested in the nandrolone approach to boost TRT does defy prescribe it? Does it affect your libido and erection quality, while looking up the drug last night I read a lot of “deca-dick”

Defy can prescribe Nandrolone/Oxandrolone/Stanozolol as long as they are safe and justified. There is more data coming out showing that these drugs have beneficial effects in low (safe) therapeutic doses such as relief from joint pain or when combined with lifestyle changes reversal of metabolic diseases and fat loss and augmenting the effects and benefits of TRT and improve quality of life. The stigma and taboo/mystery around them stems from their abuse in sports.

"deca dick" happens when the bodybuilders either use Nandrolone without T, or they use too much Nandrolone and not enough T. Beyond therapeutic in other words. What will happen though is that your RBC will increase and your HDL will decrease. Stanozolol has a reputation of drying out joints and I have felt some aches in my shoulders off an on. The orals will also strain your liver and are cycled on and off to meet a goal like fat loss or like with a lot of the GH peptides so that your body can take a break. Again, health and safety is our goal here. I take fish oil like you do (the MM brand that Defy sells) as well as NAC. So if you have issues with your liver, cholesterol, or high RBC/H&H then it may not be a good fit but that is a discussion you should have in a consult. Any Defy provider can prescribe them.

The anabolics augment the effects of testosterone which you must already be taking, so for someone already on TRT you could possibly lose weight faster, get some relief from joint pain, more energy, and the Nandrolone does seem to give me a libido boost as well. That has been my experience after almost 8 weeks taking Nandrolone. I've been taking Stanozolol for 5 weeks. Just like with TRT, they are not magic and you have to put in some work or are just wasting money and time. I am extremely busy and work out for only a half hour 3 times a week and still see results that I am happy with. Better libido, better joints (aside from the intermittent Stanozolol-induced aches). I am a little more muscular and stronger. Most importantly, I have lost some of the stubborn fat around my mid-section and hips. That is the dangerous stuff that you want gone, and these therapies work for me. Let's start a thread if you want to discuss further so as not to derail this one.

 

[Gman86]

I’m interested in the nandrolone approach to boost TRT does defy prescribe it? Does it affect your libido and erection quality, while looking up the drug last night I read a lot of “deca-dick”

Defy does prescribe it. I don’t take it, so can’t speak on how it effects libido and erections, but deca dick comes from men using either deca only, using deca at too high of doses, and/ or taking too much deca compared to their testosterone dose.

Deca doesn’t convert much to DHT, and it also converts at 1/4 the rate into E2 as testosterone. Too much deca can also raise prolactin too high. So as long as you use enough testosterone to convert enough into E2 and DHT, and keep deca at doses around 50-100mg/ week, you should be fine in the libido and erection department.

 

[Stanfoo]

Nandrolone eleven times more damaging to blood vessels than testosterone

You're really recommending deca as an addition to TRT for life?

Feel good right now you are. Feel bad later on you will.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Nandrolone eleven times more damaging to blood vessels than testosterone

You're really recommending deca as an addition to TRT for life?

Feel good right now you are. Feel bad later on you will.

That article is more than a decade old and the very first sentence says that testosterone also cause fatal heart failure, which we know is not true.

It also discusses high doses and use with cocaine. Not even close to what I mentioned. And I did not say that it was for life. If you read carefully, I said it can be applied as a therapy to meet goals such as relief from pain or fat loss. Healing from surgery or injury could be another application.

 

[Gman86]

That article is more than a decade old and the very first sentence says that testosterone also cause fatal heart failure, which we know is not true.

It also discusses high doses and use with cocaine. Not even close to what I mentioned. And I did not say that it was for life. If you read carefully, I said it can be applied as a therapy to meet goals such as relief from pain or fat loss. Healing from surgery or injury could be another application.

He was referring to me theorizing that deca will eventually be used regular in conjunction with testosterone for HRT, which I truly believe. I see only benefits from using it at low doses along with testosterone. I also see no reason why it can’t be used indefinitely, just like testosterone is. Not only do I see only benefits, I also seeing deca being a missing piece in a lot of guys’ protocols that struggle with E2. I would much prefer to manage E2 via deca vs using an ai.

I also understand that deca is just the esther. Just replace every time I said deca with nandrolone.

 

[DS3]

Yes. And if your SHBG is low then you have 2 rollercoasters each day. I cannot stress enough the importance of SHBG in a decision to use a fast ester.

For context, I would inject 15mg at 8am. By 1pm, (I have the results somewhere) my Total T was back down to 400s.

Then I would inject 15mg in the afternoon. Same feeling but I never had the second lab draw since it was so late and they were closed 4-5 hours after the afternoon injection. That's 30mg a day of Prop which is really a lot for TRT.

This part is a personal preference. I didn't mind daily injections for T when I used to need it for low SHBG and I do it now for GH Peptides, but twice a day surprisingly interfered with my life in trying to work around the same time every afternoon.

I consistently have low SHBG at 20 mnol/L and I love EOD propionate shots. No crazy hormonal or mood swings. Peak (tested) is at 1100 ng/dL and trough is at 700-800 ng/dL (again, no crazy swings). Your issue with rapidly metabolizing propionate runs deeper than mere SHBG levels.

 

[DS3]

The rate at which you absorb an injected ester like propionate determines serum testosterone. This rate is virtually independent of SHBG. End of story.

The myth that SHBG affects ester half-life has its roots in various things: If total testosterone is held constant then lower SHBG does mean higher free T. Consumption/excretion of testosterone is proportional to free T. Thus someone inferred that low-SHBG guys must be "peeing out" their testosterone faster than others, meaning a shorter effective half-life. Further "evidence" was found in those whose SHBG happened to drop quite a bit while on an unchanging dose of testosterone; they measured total testosterone and saw that it dropped as well.

But these observations are misinterpreted. First, those on TRT do not have fixed total testosterone. In fact it's free testosterone that is fairly fixed. Think of it this way: You're taking in a fixed amount of exogenous testosterone every week. At steady state you have to be using/excreting exactly the same amount every week. Otherwise you'd be building up or depleting testosterone in the body, which is not steady state. As noted, the rate of use and excretion of testosterone is proportional to free testosterone. The constant of proportionality is related to underlying metabolism, and probably changes slowly, if at all. Suppose your SHBG suddenly changed dramatically. What happens at the new steady state? You must still be excreting the same amount of testosterone each week. Thus free testosterone must be unchanged after the transition, and total testosterone adjusts to preserve this level of free T at the new SHBG.

This also explains the drop in total testosterone when SHBG falls while dose remains the same. Free testosterone initially wants to rise, but this "drains off" total testosterone until there's a new equilibrium with the same free T, but lower total testosterone. The Tru-T calculator can be used in reverse to find the new expected level of total testosterone.

" As noted, the rate of use and excretion of testosterone is proportional to free testosterone."

So as I am reading your intricately written except, to me, what it sounds like you are saying is, "The rate that your body uses and subsequently excretes exogenous T is proportional to free testosterone." So what is sounds like to me is that your statement backs up the myth that you are trying to disprove. So if free T is high, SHBG is going to be low. If free T is high, the T user excretes T faster than low free T guys. Logic would then dictate (through the transitive property), that low SHBG would indeed, as a result of higher free T, lead to faster excretion of testosterone. So if low SHBG/high free T testosterone users excrete testosterone faster than their converse counterparts, it would stand to reason that they would indeed 'run through' an ester at a faster rate than their converse counterparts.

Have I shamefully misinterpreted your statements?

"Suppose your SHBG suddenly changed dramatically. What happens at the new steady state? You must still be excreting the same amount of testosterone each week. Thus free testosterone must be unchanged after the transition, and total testosterone adjusts to preserve this level of free T at the new SHBG."

Is this a hypothesis or something that has been proven? This sounds highly theoretical.

 

[DS3]

Defy can prescribe Nandrolone/Oxandrolone/Stanozolol as long as they are safe and justified. There is more data coming out showing that these drugs have beneficial effects in low (safe) therapeutic doses such as relief from joint pain or when combined with lifestyle changes reversal of metabolic diseases and fat loss and augmenting the effects and benefits of TRT and improve quality of life. The stigma and taboo/mystery around them stems from their abuse in sports.

"deca dick" happens when the bodybuilders either use Nandrolone without T, or they use too much Nandrolone and not enough T. Beyond therapeutic in other words. What will happen though is that your RBC will increase and your HDL will decrease. Stanozolol has a reputation of drying out joints and I have felt some aches in my shoulders off an on. The orals will also strain your liver and are cycled on and off to meet a goal like fat loss or like with a lot of the GH peptides so that your body can take a break. Again, health and safety is our goal here. I take fish oil like you do (the MM brand that Defy sells) as well as NAC. So if you have issues with your liver, cholesterol, or high RBC/H&H then it may not be a good fit but that is a discussion you should have in a consult. Any Defy provider can prescribe them.

The anabolics augment the effects of testosterone which you must already be taking, so for someone already on TRT you could possibly lose weight faster, get some relief from joint pain, more energy, and the Nandrolone does seem to give me a libido boost as well. That has been my experience after almost 8 weeks taking Nandrolone. I've been taking Stanozolol for 5 weeks. Just like with TRT, they are not magic and you have to put in some work or are just wasting money and time. I am extremely busy and work out for only a half hour 3 times a week and still see results that I am happy with. Better libido, better joints (aside from the intermittent Stanozolol-induced aches). I am a little more muscular and stronger. Most importantly, I have lost some of the stubborn fat around my mid-section and hips. That is the dangerous stuff that you want gone, and these therapies work for me. Let's start a thread if you want to discuss further so as not to derail this one.

Your deca dick comment is interesting. I personally have experienced ED side effects of nandrolone at 100 mg per week while taking 200 mg T. I have even done a 3:1 ratio of T to N and still had the issue. I think the deca dick train of thought that it only occurs in users who go above therapeutic levels is rudimentary, frequently leaving neurotransmitters out of the conversation and the effect that nandrolone can have on upregulating dopamine in brain structures such as the hypothalamus. Decreased dopamine in the CNS can certainly create ED issues, and could help explain why some users experience deca dick even when they are within therapeutic ranges. Note: I am not referring to increased prolactin as the root cause of decreased dopamine in the CNS. I am referring to a direct effect on the CNS from nandrolone, aside from any effects on prolactin.