Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

[Bigben]

I actually just switched back to my other routine a few days ago. 10 mg suspension daily. Why? I get more bang for the amount. Here is the calculator to show. You can type in the 12.5 and 5 mg week 1 to 5 then 10 mg suspension week 6 to 10.

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Here is the difference.

 

[camygod]

dont you find the suspension in and out your system too fast?
i wouldnt call 17.5mg of test a day a baby dose but its still low compared to some i guess

 

[Bigben]

dont you find the suspension in and out your system too fast?
i wouldnt call 17.5mg of test a day a baby dose but its still low compared to some i guess

I don't no. There's one study on horses but I can't desipher it properly but here it is. I'm sure this has been discussed before.

 

[Cataceous]

Here is the difference.

The site's model is a little too crude and/or buggy to make this point. In fact with 12.5 mg TE and 5 mg TP you're averaging over 13 mg of testosterone per day. With 10 mg of testosterone suspension you're getting only 10 mg. It's possible that peak serum testosterone goes higher with suspension, but then it would also be likely that trough testosterone goes lower. On the other hand, if the equine suspension pharmacokinetics were applicable to people then serum testosterone would be steadier than with the ester blend.

 

[Bigben]

The site's model is a little too crude and/or buggy to make this point. In fact with 12.5 mg TE and 5 mg TP you're averaging over 13 mg of testosterone per day. With 10 mg of testosterone suspension you're getting only 10 mg. It's possible that peak serum testosterone goes higher with suspension, but then it would also be likely that trough testosterone goes lower. On the other hand, if the equine suspension pharmacokinetics were applicable to people then serum testosterone would be steadier than with the ester blend.

The site's model is a little too crude and/or buggy to make this point. In fact with 12.5 mg TE and 5 mg TP you're averaging over 13 mg of testosterone per day. With 10 mg of testosterone suspension you're getting only 10 mg. It's possible that peak serum testosterone goes higher with suspension, but then it would also be likely that trough testosterone goes lower. On the other hand, if the equine suspension pharmacokinetics were applicable to people then serum testosterone would be steadier than with the ester blend.

Yeah I see what you mean. Still it rocks. I know on suspension I am way stronger. Even the day of. Great pumps. Upping weight fast. Feeling swole most of the day as long as I eat good. Will never get bored of suspension or test e mixed with p. Strength wise suspension wins by far. Plus you can change ur dose daily. Way more fun! Once I did 100 mg by mistake. Don't ask how. But wow! What a day! Lol

 

[camygod]

I don't no. There's one study on horses but I can't desipher it properly but here it is. I'm sure this has been discussed before.

yes something to do with the crystals sticking around
i felt nothing from oil test base shame suspension is very hard to find in UK
i heard that oral test suspension works too when taken sub lingual

 

[Bigben]

yes something to do with the crystals sticking around
i felt nothing from oil test base shame suspension is very hard to find in UK
i heard that oral test suspension works too when taken sub

Lots of ugl out there. But the aquaviron by Abbott was the best. I used to have a good source for that. Still looking for another. There is a new Abbott in an orange box. Not as good.

 

[Willyt]

Finally tested my low dose daily propionate protocol. The results surprised me and illustrate why a blend could be useful.

I tested at peak (5 hours post shallow IM injection) since I wanted to see whether I was staying within normal physiological range. Here are the peak results on only 8mg of Prop daily:

* TT was 1267 (264-916 range)
* Free T (direct) 22 was at top of range (7.2 to 24)
* Hematocrit crept up from 48.6 to 50.3.
* Modest increase in E2 Sensitive from low 20s to 28
* Sizeable drop in SHBG from mid-40s to 34

Amazing that only 56mg of Prop per week can hit those numbers! That said, straight prop amps me up too much even at such a low dose. A blend could hopefully cut down those peaks to stay within physiological range.

I am going to give enanthate blend a try. Ideally there will be less water retention than I experienced on cypionate (15lbs versus zero on propionate) even though cyp and enanthate are very similar medium-term esters. I have read a number of anecdotal accounts of less fluid retention with enanthate so let's see.

 

[goolapsh]

Finally tested my low dose daily propionate protocol. The results surprised me and illustrate why a blend could be useful.

I tested at peak (5 hours post shallow IM injection) since I wanted to see whether I was staying within normal physiological range. Here are the peak results on only 8mg of Prop daily:

* TT was 1267 (264-916 range)
* Free T (direct) 22 was at top of range (7.2 to 24)
* Hematocrit crept up from 48.6 to 50.3.
* Modest increase in E2 Sensitive from low 20s to 28
* Sizeable drop in SHBG from mid-40s to 34

Amazing that only 56mg of Prop per week can hit those numbers! That said, straight prop amps me up too much even at such a low dose. A blend could hopefully cut down those peaks to stay within physiological range.

I am going to give enanthate blend a try. Ideally there will be less water retention than I experienced on cypionate (15lbs versus zero on propionate) even though cyp and enanthate are very similar medium-term esters. I have read a number of anecdotal accounts of less fluid retention with enanthate so let's see.

Hows libido? That’s the ultimate test, cause all the other shit don’t matter without that.

 

[madman]

Finally tested my low dose daily propionate protocol. The results surprised me and illustrate why a blend could be useful.

I tested at peak (5 hours post shallow IM injection) since I wanted to see whether I was staying within normal physiological range. Here are the peak results on only 8mg of Prop daily:

* TT was 1267 (264-916 range)
* Free T (direct) 22 was at top of range (7.2 to 24)
* Hematocrit crept up from 48.6 to 50.3.
* Modest increase in E2 Sensitive from low 20s to 28
* Sizeable drop in SHBG from mid-40s to 34

Amazing that only 56mg of Prop per week can hit those numbers! That said, straight prop amps me up too much even at such a low dose. A blend could hopefully cut down those peaks to stay within physiological range.

I am going to give enanthate blend a try. Ideally there will be less water retention than I experienced on cypionate (15lbs versus zero on propionate) even though cyp and enanthate are very similar medium-term esters. I have read a number of anecdotal accounts of less fluid retention with enanthate so let's see.

Hard to believe after all this time you would use/rely upon the piss poor direct immunoassay which is known to be inaccurate let alone post your FT.

With a TT 1267 ng/dL and normal SHBG 34 nmol/L, your FT is going to be absurdly high as in most likely mid-high 40 ng/dL.

Not.....Free T (direct) 22 was at top of range (7.2 to 24)

Useless assay!

 

[Willyt]

Hard to believe after all this time you would use/rely upon the piss poor direct immunoassay which is known to be inaccurate let alone post your FT.

With a TT 1267 ng/dL and normal SHBG 34 nmol/L, your FT is going to be absurdly high as in most likely mid-high 40 ng/dL.

Not.....Free T (direct) 22 was at top of range (7.2 to 24)

Useless assay!

I knew you would give me shit for that lol. It's part of the standard Defy checkup test. Do they offer an alternative considering its Labcorp?

 

[Willyt]

Hows libido? That’s the ultimate test, cause all the other shit don’t matter without that.

Completely agree and unfortunately TRT has never done much for my libido other than a few occasional flashes related to dose changes. And I've tried a number of different injection protocols in addition to cream. Like many on this board, I have concluded that FT is just one small piece of the libido puzzle.

 

[madman]

I knew you would give me shit for that lol. It's part of the standard Defy checkup test. Do they offer an alternative considering its Labcorp?

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[Cataceous]

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Interesting to see that it's in the Defy store now. However, at $106 it's not something I'd be likely to splurge on. Given the occasional problems with these more complicated tests I think that the average guy isn't necessarily any worse off if he instead looks at the Vermeulen and Tru-T numbers.

 

[madman]

I knew you would give me shit for that lol. It's part of the standard Defy checkup test. Do they offer an alternative considering its Labcorp?

This is where I stand when it comes to testing FT!

I would not rely on the piss poor direct immunoassay let alone outdated calculated methods especially in cases of altered SHBG.

Although the newer cFTZ algorithm (TruT) should give fairly consistent results I would prefer to rely on direct testing using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration especially in cases of altered SHBG.

Again with a TT 1267 ng/dL and SHBG 34 nmol/L your FT will most likely be well over what would be considered the top end of healthy 16-31 ng/dL.

Stick to whatever method suits your fancy.



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[Willyt]

@Cataceous - How would Empower's pre-blended Cypionate/Propionate 4:1 compare to your 4:3 Enanthate/Prop protocol in terms of daily fluctuations? What variation would estimate for the 4:1?

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[Fortunate]

@Willyt, your question comes at a good time, because I wanted to wake this thread back up. I gave a Prop/Enanth blend a try a while back, but did not give it enough time. More recently, I am on daily small doses of enanthate, but I am starting to get curious about propionate again (for a few reasons).

@Cataceous, I think I understand your rationale for your TRT approach, but are there other supposed anecdotal benefits to propionate over a long lasting ester? Are there guys that "feel better" on propionate, all other things being as equal as possible?

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous - How would Empower's pre-blended Cypionate/Propionate 4:1 compare to your 4:3 Enanthate/Prop protocol in terms of daily fluctuations? What variation would estimate for the 4:1?
...

My rough estimate for variation about mean serum levels is half of the fraction of testosterone coming from propionate. This assumes the testosterone from the longer ester varies minimally, while testosterone from propionate gives a +/-50% variation in daily levels. With Empower's 4:1 product the result is: 0.5 * 0.837 / (4 * 0.70 + 0.837) = 11.5%. In contrast, the calculation for the 4:3 blend is 0.5 * 3 * 0.837 / (4 * 0.72 + 3 * 0.837) = 23.3%. Translating to the trough as a fraction of peak, the 4:1 blend is 80%, while the 4:3 blend is 62%.

This nominally applies to free testosterone, but works pretty well for total testosterone if SHBG doesn't change much and is not extreme. For example, I recently measured peak TT as 700 ng/dL and trough as 420. This yields a variation of 25% about the mean, not far from the calculated value.

The usual disclaimer is that the estimate of 50% variation with pure propionate comes from my numbers. Absorption rates may vary significantly between individuals.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I was hoping you would chime in @Cataceous considering you were the pioneer that got me interested in the less-is-more daily approach with prop blend. Couple of follow-up questions:

* Do you recommend the Ultra-Spec or the ALK sterile vile below?

https://www.medical-and-lab-supplies.com/lab-supplies/vials/sealed-sterile-vials/ultra-spec-sterile-5ml-20mm-neck-clear-sealed-glass-vials.html

ALK-5ml Clear Sealed Sterile Glass Vial-Blue, Qty. 1

In order to receive vials in sealed shrink wrap boxes, please order in multiples of 25

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* How did you devise your 4:3 ratio (3.2 mg enanthate to 2.4 mg propionate). Through trial and error? Or is this what you were referring to when you mentioned "dose-response data"?

* I am having trouble wrapping my pea brain around the idea of blending two solutions with different concentrations (Propionate 100mg/ML versus Cypionate 200mg/ML).

For example, assume I blend 50/50 split of Prop 100mg + Cyp 100mg (ignoring the different ester weights for simplicity). That would require drawing of Prop 1 ML + Cyp .5 ML due to the different concentrations for total blended amount of 1.5 ML.

Then assume I want to inject 10mg dose (= Prop 5mg + Cyp 5mg). What ML amount would I draw from the sterile vile that now contains the blend? Would the injection be .075 ML? (= Prop .05 ML + Cyp 0.25 ML)

1. I switched to Med Lab Supply because I needed their vials with the PTFE-coated stoppers. Although I no longer need that extra protection, I stick with them out of inertia.

2. I've used those three standard sizes, 2, 5 and 10 mL. The 2 mL vials maybe allow for a little less waste at the end. But they do sometimes trap an air bubble right in the stopper, which you can draw if you're not paying attention. Otherwise choose a size that's good for a month or so of draws.

3. I like using 3 mL syringes for the blending.

4. I use the same syringe for both esters. In theory there can be a tiny amount of cross contamination of the ester drawn second. But additional microbial contamination should be negligible with good technique.

5. I aim for batches that last 4-6 weeks.

6. If the carrier oils are the same then I don't think additional pre-dose mixing is necessary. If they are different then I would want to better understand if separation is possible, and I would agitate before use.

7. I found it helpful to have dose-response data acquired with frequent doses of a longer ester. Free testosterone should be roughly linear with testosterone dose. With this information and some daily propionate trough measurements you can estimate daily fluctuations for any ester ratio.

Excellent advice Cataceous. I would use a larger barrel needle (21g) to make drawing up the oil much easier and a 3ml syringe. Use alcohol each time you draw. To get the 4:3 ratio, figure out how many doses you want and simply draw up 3.2 mg enanthate to 2.4 mg propionate for each dose and in just inject it into the new vial. If you are using raw powder its just a matter of weighing out the ratio of powders before adding the oil BB and BA. Agitation before use is a great idea.

 

[Willyt]

@Willyt, your question comes at a good time, because I wanted to wake this thread back up. I gave a Prop/Enanth blend a try a while back, but did not give it enough time. More recently, I am on daily small doses of enanthate, but I am starting to get curious about propionate again (for a few reasons).

@Cataceous, I think I understand your rationale for your TRT approach, but are there other supposed anecdotal benefits to propionate over a long lasting ester? Are there guys that "feel better" on propionate, all other things being as equal as possible?

What is your enanthate daily dose?

You came at it the smarter way - dial in daily enanthate first, then move to the blend knowing what your sweet spot is. I did the reverse because I was having problems with medium-term esters. Its harder to start with Prop-only because the swings are so much bigger as Cat explains in his variations post. Even small Prop doses were putting me way out of range.

I recently tried enanthate-only yet again. Felt like garbage first 2 weeks, immediately put on my water weight, but seemed to have pushed through this time hopefully (jinx!). Finding sweet spot at 7-8mg daily. Now looking to blend in Prop.

I think one of the main benefits of adding Prop to blend is dropping your levels at night for better sleep. IMO, top-of-range steady state is the enemy of sleep.