Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

[Cataceous]

...
Cataceous and others, very interesting writeup here. Im wondering if my trough is helping my natural production some?

My expectation is that having every other day at high levels is too suppressive to be overcome by the low levels on the alternate days. So far only very short-acting exogenous testosterone has been shown to minimize suppression, as with testosterone nasal gel.

 

[Thekanezzi]

My expectation is that having every other day at high levels is too suppressive to be overcome by the low levels on the alternate days. So far only very short-acting exogenous testosterone has been shown to minimize suppression, as with testosterone nasal gel.

Great info. I really appreciate your insights. I believe if it isnt, dont fix it..but do you (or anyone else) see any low hanging fruit in my protocol?

Thanks!

 

[SSHSSA74]

I was on EOD test cyp for years until I had a severe libido issue last year s/p adding scrotal test cream

I switched to Test P daily and since then have moved to 36mg test P EOD. Big troughs but I absolutely feel better.

I also take 250iu hcg with my test pt and 0.25mg adex MWF

Cataceous and others, very interesting writeup here. Im wondering if my trough is helping my natural production some?

Does E spike with test P making an AI more likely to be necessary?

 

[Thekanezzi]

Does E spike with test P making an AI more likely to be necessary?

I’m using 0.25mg of adex a week less than I was when taking 40mg eod of test cyp. I feel the same otherwise.

My thoughts are that as e2 goes up, there is a sensitizing of dopamine receptors and then as e2 goes down again they aren’t overly stimulated. This was the effect I was chasing with the change protocol and it appeared to work.

fwiw I believe that the trans scrotal t cream put my dht astronomically high which gave me low e2 symptoms and affect d2 receptors.

 

[ivkonst2017]

Seems Im not the only one doing good onky with fast esters.

Ive tried different cypiinate and enanthate protocols with the same terrible issues resulting from them.

Only on sustanon I feel good like Im aupposed to feel on TRT. So my 2 cents if you think whether your efforts for the blend are worthy...

 

[SSHSSA74]

I’m using 0.25mg of adex a week less than I was when taking 40mg eod of test cyp. I feel the same otherwise.

My thoughts are that as e2 goes up, there is a sensitizing of dopamine receptors and then as e2 goes down again they aren’t overly stimulated. This was the effect I was chasing with the change protocol and it appeared to work.

fwiw I believe that the trans scrotal t cream put my dht astronomically high which gave me low e2 symptoms and affect d2 receptors.

ok. thanks for the good information. Scrotal cream seems to be a hit when you first start, but the honeymoon is short.

 

[SSHSSA74]

I’m using 0.25mg of adex a week less than I was when taking 40mg eod of test cyp. I feel the same otherwise.

My thoughts are that as e2 goes up, there is a sensitizing of dopamine receptors and then as e2 goes down again they aren’t overly stimulated. This was the effect I was chasing with the change protocol and it appeared to work.

fwiw I believe that the trans scrotal t cream put my dht astronomically high which gave me low e2 symptoms and affect d2 receptors.

Do you still use cream with your Test P?

 

[Thekanezzi]

Seems Im not the only one doing good onky with fast esters.

Ive tried different cypiinate and enanthate protocols with the same terrible issues resulting from them.

Only on sustanon I feel good like Im aupposed to feel on TRT. So my 2 cents if you think whether your efforts for the blend are worthy...

I am far from an expert but I believe that somehow the longer esters drive up my e1 which is where i get my symptoms. I really cant provide decent reference as to why though.

ok. thanks for the good information. Scrotal cream seems to be a hit when you first start, but the honeymoon is short.

It started with thanos grade erections and orgasms and downgraded into zero libido, anorgasmia and eventual ED.

Mr Happy stack helped a lot and then switching to test p got me back to 90-95% but i still dont feel 100%

Do you still use cream with your Test P?

Absolutely not, never again.

 

[Willyt]

Quick update. Unfortunately, I had to discontinue my attempt at the blended protocol using Cyp + Prop @ 1.2:1 ratio.

Cypionate is my kryptonite due to water retention. In my two previous attempts using only Cypionate (80-100mgs per week), I gained nearly 15 LBS of mostly water weight, which is a lot on my frame. I don't care about the cosmetic aspect. The problem is that water retention wreaks havoc on various aspects of my health.

Its a shame because I felt good the first several days of the blended approach and even had a flickering of libido, which I never had with TRT except when first starting out on scrotal cream. However, as the Cypionate started to stack, I began to retain water (again) as the weeks wore on, even at doses as low as 4.5mg cypionate per day (total of 8.2mg blended per day).

It makes sense that low-dose daily blend would address many of the side effects that people have experienced on this forum. Keep levels within physiological range negating the need for AI while taking advantage of Prop's "pop" in the morning similar to natural daily hormonal rhythm.

I have returned to my Propionate-only protocol of 8-10mg daily. The difference without Cyp is striking. Water gain is near zero. As discussed earlier, the downside is that the daily Prop-only spike comes on a bit strong.

I may try blended approach again, but this time with Prop + Enanthate. Not sure if it will make a difference in regards to water retention. There have been many discussions on this forum about the differences (or lack thereof) between the longer esters with a few anecdotal reports of less water retention with Enanthate presumably due to the slightly shorter half-life. Then again, maybe I'll just keep riding the wild mustang Prop!

 

[ivkonst2017]

I am far from an expert but I believe that somehow the longer esters drive up my e1 which is where i get my symptoms. I really cant provide decent reference as to why though.

I have no idea about e1, but short esters usually spike estradiol more. On sustanon my e2 is higher than enanthate, but I have no issues with that.

 

[Cataceous]

... In my two previous attempts using only Cypionate (80-100mgs per week), I gained nearly 15 LBS of mostly water weight, which is a lot on my frame. I don't care about the cosmetic aspect. The problem is that water retention wreaks havoc on various aspects of my health.

Its a shame because I felt good the first several days of the blended approach and even had a flickering of libido, which I never had with TRT except when first starting out on scrotal cream. However, as the Cypionate started to stack, I began to retain water (again) as the weeks wore on, even at doses as low as 4.5mg cypionate per day (total of 8.2mg blended per day).
...

My experience is similar, except that for me the water weight is beneficial, virtually eliminating hydration problems I previously had in my sport. On EOD enanthate with serum testosterone around 800 ng/dL I also carried an extra 15 pounds compared to baseline. That figure has dropped to ~7.5 pounds on the TE/TP blend protocol, with serum testosterone peaking around 600-700 ng/dL. I recall my weight retreated even further in the time I was on only propionate.

This dose dependency has me wondering about your serum testosterone levels. Is it possible you were still above your youthful levels? I wonder the same in my case since I'm several pounds over a weight that was stable for decades.

 

[SSHSSA74]

Quick update. Unfortunately, I had to discontinue my attempt at the blended protocol using Cyp + Prop @ 1.2:1 ratio.

Cypionate is my kryptonite due to water retention. In my two previous attempts using only Cypionate (80-100mgs per week), I gained nearly 15 LBS of mostly water weight, which is a lot on my frame. I don't care about the cosmetic aspect. The problem is that water retention wreaks havoc on various aspects of my health.

Its a shame because I felt good the first several days of the blended approach and even had a flickering of libido, which I never had with TRT except when first starting out on scrotal cream. However, as the Cypionate started to stack, I began to retain water (again) as the weeks wore on, even at doses as low as 4.5mg cypionate per day (total of 8.2mg blended per day).

It makes sense that low-dose daily blend would address many of the side effects that people have experienced on this forum. Keep levels within physiological range negating the need for AI while taking advantage of Prop's "pop" in the morning similar to natural daily hormonal rhythm.

I have returned to my Propionate-only protocol of 8-10mg daily. The difference without Cyp is striking. Water gain is near zero. As discussed earlier, the downside is that the daily Prop-only spike comes on a bit strong.

I may try blended approach again, but this time with Prop + Enanthate. Not sure if it will make a difference in regards to water retention. There have been many discussions on this forum about the differences (or lack thereof) between the longer esters with a few anecdotal reports of less water retention with Enanthate presumably due to the slightly shorter half-life. Then again, maybe I'll just keep riding the wild mustang Prop!

What about a lower second daily dose of P?

 

[SSHSSA74]

I am far from an expert but I believe that somehow the longer esters drive up my e1 which is where i get my symptoms. I really cant provide decent reference as to why though.

It started with thanos grade erections and orgasms and downgraded into zero libido, anorgasmia and eventual ED.

Mr Happy stack helped a lot and then switching to test p got me back to 90-95% but i still dont feel 100%

Absolutely not, never again.

Good to know. Thanks for info!

 

[SSHSSA74]

1. I switched to Med Lab Supply because I needed their vials with the PTFE-coated stoppers. Although I no longer need that extra protection, I stick with them out of inertia.

2. I've used those three standard sizes, 2, 5 and 10 mL. The 2 mL vials maybe allow for a little less waste at the end. But they do sometimes trap an air bubble right in the stopper, which you can draw if you're not paying attention. Otherwise choose a size that's good for a month or so of draws.

3. I like using 3 mL syringes for the blending.

4. I use the same syringe for both esters. In theory there can be a tiny amount of cross contamination of the ester drawn second. But additional microbial contamination should be negligible with good technique.

5. I aim for batches that last 4-6 weeks.

6. If the carrier oils are the same then I don't think additional pre-dose mixing is necessary. If they are different then I would want to better understand if separation is possible, and I would agitate before use.

7. I found it helpful to have dose-response data acquired with frequent doses of a longer ester. Free testosterone should be roughly linear with testosterone dose. With this information and some daily propionate trough measurements you can estimate daily fluctuations for any ester ratio.

1. I switched to Med Lab Supply because I needed their vials with the PTFE-coated stoppers. Although I no longer need that extra protection, I stick with them out of inertia.

2. I've used those three standard sizes, 2, 5 and 10 mL. The 2 mL vials maybe allow for a little less waste at the end. But they do sometimes trap an air bubble right in the stopper, which you can draw if you're not paying attention. Otherwise choose a size that's good for a month or so of draws.

3. I like using 3 mL syringes for the blending.

4. I use the same syringe for both esters. In theory there can be a tiny amount of cross contamination of the ester drawn second. But additional microbial contamination should be negligible with good technique.

5. I aim for batches that last 4-6 weeks.

6. If the carrier oils are the same then I don't think additional pre-dose mixing is necessary. If they are different then I would want to better understand if separation is possible, and I would agitate before use.

7. I found it helpful to have dose-response data acquired with frequent doses of a longer ester. Free testosterone should be roughly linear with testosterone dose. With this information and some daily propionate trough measurements you can estimate daily fluctuations for any ester ratio.

Is it the same to just draw from two separate vials? One P and one E?

 

[Cataceous]

Is it the same to just draw from two separate vials? One P and one E?

I think I mentioned somewhere back there that I didn't notice a difference between the two methods, though it is possible the absorption characteristics are a little different.

 

[SSHSSA74]

I think I mentioned somewhere back there that I didn't notice a difference between the two methods, though it is possible the absorption characteristics are a little different.

Got it. Thank you.

 

[ivkonst2017]

It started with thanos grade erections and orgasms and downgraded into zero libido, anorgasmia and eventual ED.

If your thanos grade errections were when you initiated TRT dont expect that to get back 100 percent ever again. The honeymoon period happens because of the dopamine rush resulting from the body experiencing elevated t levels for the first time. Sorry, but that cannot last because the dopamine receptors downregulate to that initial t experience. However if you fix everything you may reach up to 80-85 percent of that experience at least from what Ive seen from me and other people. The honey moon is not something that can last long.

However having anorgasmia and ED for sure is not normal and indicates either your protocol is not right for you or you have other issues that need to be addreassed. Most of us on TRT especially who started with secondary have other issues and it is almost never only the suboptimal t that the body suffered from initially.

 

[Thekanezzi]

If your thanos grade errections were when you initiated TRT dont expect that to get back 100 percent ever again. The honeymoon period happens because of the dopamine rush resulting from the body experiencing elevated t levels for the first time. Sorry, but that cannot last because the dopamine receptors downregulate to that initial t experience. However if you fix everything you may reach up to 80-85 percent of that experience at least from what Ive seen from me and other people. The honey moon is not something that can last long.

However having anorgasmia and ED for sure is not normal and indicates either your protocol is not right for you or you have other issues that need to be addreassed. Most of us on TRT especially who started with secondary have other issues and it is almost never only the suboptimal t that the body suffered from initially.

I was comparing to the 4 years prior on trt. This change was 4 years after initiating TRT therapy

 

[Willyt]

My experience is similar, except that for me the water weight is beneficial, virtually eliminating hydration problems I previously had in my sport. On EOD enanthate with serum testosterone around 800 ng/dL I also carried an extra 15 pounds compared to baseline. That figure has dropped to ~7.5 pounds on the TE/TP blend protocol, with serum testosterone peaking around 600-700 ng/dL. I recall my weight retreated even further in the time I was on only propionate.

This dose dependency has me wondering about your serum testosterone levels. Is it possible you were still above your youthful levels? I wonder the same in my case since I'm several pounds over a weight that was stable for decades.

It is surprising to see that level of water weight even at dose as low as your 3.2 TE daily. Your experience makes me think I would have similar result on Enanthate blend as I did for Cypionate. On a positive note, I never thought of the hydration benefit. Way to find the silver lining!

Do you find that the retention negatively effects your cardio for an endurance sport? It would seem to have less of an effect on low impact sports like cycling and Nordic skiing, but a killer for running at least in my experience. The joints is where I can really feel it.

Do you take any measures to avoid exacerbating the retention (e.g., monitoring sodium intake)?

Regarding dose dependency, I was testing at top end of range (750 TT) on trough day during my cypionate-only days of 100mg per week (split 3.5D) with SHBG in mid-40s. I have yet to test on low dose daily protocol, but after some experimenting, decided to hold at 8mg Prop daily in effort to keep spike within range (or close to it). I can definitely feel a big difference between 8mg and 10mg of Prop. It will be interesting to see what the test results show...

 

[Willyt]

What about a lower second daily dose of P?

I've thought about it, but the practical side of me thinks I would have trouble complying on long-term basis with that approach. Once daily is plenty challenging for me.

The other consideration is that I've found that Prop too close to bedtime negatively impacts sleep because Prop seems to have a stimulating effect. That said, some guys are not bothered by evening doses of T. Let us know if you try the 2x daily.