Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

[Cataceous]

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@Cataceous, I think I understand your rationale for your TRT approach, but are there other supposed anecdotal benefits to propionate over a long lasting ester? Are there guys that "feel better" on propionate, all other things being as equal as possible?

Also see my comment on the first page...

 

[Willyt]

My rough estimate for variation about mean serum levels is half of the fraction of testosterone coming from propionate. This assumes the testosterone from the longer ester varies minimally, while testosterone from propionate gives a +/-50% variation in daily levels. With Empower's 4:1 product the result is: 0.5 * 0.837 / (4 * 0.70 + 0.837) = 11.5%. In contrast, the calculation for the 4:3 blend is 0.5 * 3 * 0.837 / (4 * 0.72 + 3 * 0.837) = 23.3%. Translating to the trough as a fraction of peak, the 4:1 blend is 80%, while the 4:3 blend is 66%.

This nominally applies to free testosterone, but works pretty well for total testosterone if SHBG doesn't change much and is not extreme. For example, I recently measured peak TT as 700 ng/dL and trough as 420. This yields a variation of 25% about the mean, not far from the calculated value.

The usual disclaimer is that the estimate of 50% variation with pure propionate comes from my numbers. Absorption rates may vary significantly between individuals.

Cat - This is pure gold. One question though (I should have paid more attention in math class). How did you calculate the trough as fraction of peak for each blend ratio?

 

[Fortunate]

What is your enanthate daily dose?

You came at it the smarter way - dial in daily enanthate first, then move to the blend knowing what your sweet spot is. I did the reverse because I was having problems with medium-term esters. Its harder to start with Prop-only because the swings are so much bigger as Cat explains in his variations post. Even small Prop doses were putting me way out of range.

I recently tried enanthate-only yet again. Felt like garbage first 2 weeks, immediately put on my water weight, but seemed to have pushed through this time hopefully (jinx!). Finding sweet spot at 7-8mg daily. Now looking to blend in Prop.

I think one of the main benefits of adding Prop to blend is dropping your levels at night for better sleep. IMO, top-of-range steady state is the enemy of sleep.

I have used 10-15mg of enanthate daily. Has worked well, but energy lacking these days. Just got blood drawn to see maybe if E2 shot up or if T levels are too high.

 

[Cataceous]

...One question though (I should have paid more attention in math class). How did you calculate the trough as fraction of peak for each blend ratio?

Glad you asked, since I used the wrong number to make that calculation for the 4:3 blend, which I've fixed. If you've already estimated the fractional excursion, f, above and below the mean, then the trough as a fraction of peak is (1 - f) / (1 + f). For the 4:3 blend, f is 23%, so the calculation is 0.77 / 1.23 = 62%.

Some additional details: Because this is a rough approximation, serum testosterone is modeled as a linear sawtooth. This keeps everything simple, because the mean level is then the sum of peak and trough divided by two.

 

[Fortunate]

@Cataceous, I am giving this another trial. So far, it's been decent. I have only done a few days, into abdominal subQ. I have noticed pain and tenderness at the injection sites, which I rotate. I don't tend to get this with other esters. Have you noticed this with propionate? Where do you inject your blend?

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous, I am giving this another trial. So far, it's been decent. I have only done a few days, into abdominal subQ. I have noticed pain and tenderness at the injection sites, which I rotate. I don't tend to get this with other esters. Have you noticed this with propionate? Where do you inject your blend?

It is more common to have injection site reactions with propionate than with the longer esters. What I have found is that Empower Pharmacy's propionate is much better in this regard than another brand I tried. I have injected in the upper thighs and abdominally. My lab work suggests that the leg injections are absorbed more slowly. Intuitively I might have thought the opposite would be true, but I recall someone posting research supporting the idea of relatively faster abdominal absorption. In any case, for my blend to work as intended it seems as though I must inject into the abdomen.

 

[Willyt]

@Cataceous, I am giving this another trial. So far, it's been decent. I have only done a few days, into abdominal subQ. I have noticed pain and tenderness at the injection sites, which I rotate. I don't tend to get this with other esters. Have you noticed this with propionate? Where do you inject your blend?

To avoid the stinging with Propionate, one thing I've learned is to make sure to shake off any droplets that form on the tip of the needle before you inject. Seems to happen more than with Prop versus Enan/Cyp. Maybe because its less viscous?

 

[Willyt]

It is more common to have injection site reactions with propionate than with the longer esters. What I have found is that Empower Pharmacy's propionate is much better in this regard than another brand I tried. I have injected in the upper thighs and abdominally. My lab work suggests that the leg injections are absorbed more slowly. Intuitively I might have thought the opposite would be true, but I recall someone posting research supporting the idea of relatively faster abdominal absorption. In any case, for my blend to work as intended it seems as though I must inject into the abdomen.

That does seem backwards. Subjectively, I nearly always feel prop kick in much faster with shallow IM in deltoids versus subq in love handles.

 

[Fortunate]

That does seem backwards. Subjectively, I nearly always feel prop kick in much faster with shallow IM in deltoids versus subq in love handles.

So, what is your current protocol?

 

[Willyt]

So, what is your current protocol?

I am finally on the blend. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I was initially having trouble with cyp/enan and side effects related to water weight. I finally pushed through that problem and focused on dialing in low dose daily Enan first before moving on to the blend.

I have since added in Prop slowly, starting at 4:1 Enan/Prop ratio. I am now at 2:1 ratio, which provides less daily variance compared to Cat's 4:3 (18% versus 23% variance if my calculations are correct). Stated another way, expected trough is 69% of peak so plenty of daily fluctuation.

Daily total dose of 7.5mg which provides actual T of 5.7mg. Too early to make any judgements although I can say its very different from straight Prop.

Its been a bit of hassle because I am injecting each separately for the time being (two injections at same time daily). I will blend up an actual batch in sterile vial once I settle on a preferred ratio.

 

[Fortunate]

I am finally on the blend. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I was initially having trouble with cyp/enan and side effects related to water weight. I finally pushed through that problem and focused on dialing in low dose daily Enan first before moving on to the blend.

I have since added in Prop slowly, starting at 4:1 Enan/Prop ratio. I am now at 2:1 ratio, which provides less daily variance compared to Cat's 4:3 (18% versus 23% variance if my calculations are correct). Stated another way, expected trough is 69% of peak so plenty of daily fluctuation.

Daily total dose of 7.5mg which provides actual T of 5.7mg. Too early to make any judgements although I can say its very different from straight Prop.

Its been a bit of hassle because I am injecting each separately for the time being (two injections at same time daily). I will blend up an actual batch in sterile vial once I settle on a preferred ratio.

This is helpful. My enanthate strength is 200mg/ml (as opposed to @Cataceous's 300mg/ml). Using his method, I created a 1:1 blend (math below for verification).

I have several sore spots on the abdomen and resigned myself to the fact that I can't do this blend unless I figure out a way to not react to the propionate. I noticed that at the top of my vial, there is a little collection of some gooey looking stuff. I wonder if this is crystallized propionate? It prompted me to order a new vial, but I wonder if heating it a bit would have been good enough?

I am sure you already said this somewhere, but are you doing shallow IM? Quads?

Assumptions:
- enathate = 200mg/ml
- propionate = 100mg/ml
- enanthate actual test = 72% = 144mg/ml
- propionate actual test = 83.7% = 83.7mg/ml
- ratio is 1.7
- 1.7ml of propionate + 1ml of enanthate = 1:1 ratio (50% from each ester)
- 1.7ml x 100mg/ml x 0.837 = 142mg propionate
- 1ml of 200mg/ml x 0.72 = 144mg enanthate
- 286 total test per 2.7ml = 106mg of actual test/ml of blend with a 1:1 ratio
- 0.1ml of blend = 10.6mg of actual test at 50-50 ratio

Now my problem is how to inject without getting a painful nodule!

 

[Willyt]

I have several sore spots on the abdomen and resigned myself to the fact that I can't do this blend unless I figure out a way to not react to the propionate. I noticed that at the top of my vial, there is a little collection of some gooey looking stuff. I wonder if this is crystallized propionate? It prompted me to order a new vial, but I wonder if heating it a bit would have been good enough?

I am sure you already said this somewhere, but are you doing shallow IM? Quads?

Now my problem is how to inject without getting a painful nodule!

I tend to switch between shallow IM in delts or VG or Subq in love handles. I like the convenience of subq, but subjectively feel better on shallow IM. It could all be in my head, but I've doing this for awhile now can feel a difference between the two methods when Prop is involved.

Are you using 31 gauge / 5/16 needle? I quickly wipe off Prop vial before and after drawing to avoid the residue you speak of (I have experienced the same).

 

[Fortunate]

I tend to switch between shallow IM in delts or VG or Subq in love handles. I like the convenience of subq, but subjectively feel better on shallow IM. It could all be in my head, but I've doing this for awhile now can feel a difference between the two methods when Prop is involved.

Are you using 31 gauge / 5/16 needle? I quickly wipe off Prop vial before and after drawing to avoid the residue you speak of (I have experienced the same).

I am using a 31 gauge short needle. I ordered a new bottle of propionate. Curious if there’s something wrong with the last vial? Not sure I want to give it a try, but if I do, I will report back here.

 

[Fortunate]

Here is an image of what I am describing. It's hard to see. I couldn't get my darn phone to focus on the sludge, but it's in the upper right corner, at the neck of the bottle.

Any opinions on what this is? Crystallized propionate? If so, that would suggest the portion that is still liquid is less potent than what it was prior to the crystallization.

 

[Cataceous]

Here is an image of what I am describing. It's hard to see. I couldn't get my darn phone to focus on the sludge, but it's in the upper right corner, at the neck of the bottle.

Any opinions on what this is? Crystallized propionate? If so, that would suggest the portion that is still liquid is less potent than what it was prior to the crystallization.

...

You can try the hot water method to see if the substance dissolves. You'll need to invert your vial so that the oil is in contact with the deposit.

 

[Fortunate]

You can try the hot water method to see if the substance dissolves. You'll need to invert your vial so that the oil is in contact with the deposit.

Wow. I suppose this can possibly explain my post injection pain. I’ll try this and maybe draw up some to inject tomorrow and report back.

 

[Willyt]

Quick update. I've been playing with the blend variables trying to find the right balance. Too much Prop and I get hyped up in the AM, a bit scatterbrained. Too much Enan negatively impacts by sleep due to elevated trough levels overnight.

My sweet spots seem to range from 2-3mg Prop + 5-6mg Enan with total around 8mg. After netting out the esters, this yields around 6mg in actual T depending on the blend ratio, which is line with natural daily T. Thanks @Cataceous !

I tried chasing Emeric the Bodybuilder's much heralded 10mg per day. Many would find this laughable, but its just too high for me. I get the bounding heart and sleep like garbage.

I keep thinking about what @readalot has mentioned - we all have different tolerance levels for exo T depending on what our body was designed to handle. My guess is that my TT levels were never in the 800s even during my 20s when natural T levels were highest.

 

[Fortunate]

Quick update. I've been playing with the blend variables trying to find the right balance. Too much Prop and I get hyped up in the AM, a bit scatterbrained. Too much Enan negatively impacts by sleep due to elevated trough levels overnight.

My sweet spots seem to range from 2-3mg Prop + 5-6mg Enan with total around 8mg. After netting out the esters, this yields around 6mg in actual T depending on the blend ratio, which is line with natural daily T. Thanks @Cataceous !

I tried chasing Emeric the Bodybuilder's much heralded 10mg per day. Many would find this laughable, but its just too high for me. I get the bounding heart and sleep like garbage.

I keep thinking about what @readalot has mentioned - we all have different tolerance levels for exo T depending on what our body was designed to handle. My guess is that my TT levels were never in the 800s even during my 20s when natural T levels were highest.

This is great information and I fully agree. I suspect I am like you. I can’t tolerate very much. Recently, I was on 10 mg a day for a few weeks and was not feeling great even on that. The right thing would have been to drop it to 6 to 8 mg per day, but I haven’t quite done that yet. That said, it’s on my radar. Great to hear others succeeding.

 

[SSHSSA74]

Quick update. I've been playing with the blend variables trying to find the right balance. Too much Prop and I get hyped up in the AM, a bit scatterbrained. Too much Enan negatively impacts by sleep due to elevated trough levels overnight.

My sweet spots seem to range from 2-3mg Prop + 5-6mg Enan with total around 8mg. After netting out the esters, this yields around 6mg in actual T depending on the blend ratio, which is line with natural daily T. Thanks @Cataceous !

I tried chasing Emeric the Bodybuilder's much heralded 10mg per day. Many would find this laughable, but its just too high for me. I get the bounding heart and sleep like garbage.

I keep thinking about what @readalot has mentioned - we all have different tolerance levels for exo T depending on what our body was designed to handle. My guess is that my TT levels were never in the 800s even during my 20s when natural T levels were highest.

Is that 10 prop per day, or 10 total (prop + enan) per day?

 

[Willyt]

Is that 10 prop per day, or 10 total (prop + enan) per day?

I have tried both straight 10mg Prop and 10mg prop + enan blend. Straight prop is entirely different animal. Hell, I tested TT of 1200 on only 8mg of Prop! (measured at peak 4-5 hours after injection).

The 10mg blend has slightly higher actual T (due to less ester in Prop) than Emeric's straight 10mg Enan, which equates to 7.2mg of actual T per day.

In chasing Emeric's 10mg per day target, I was hoping to raise Free T since my SHBG is in low 40s. Feel great at times and then it quickly catches up to me, especially with sleep. Lots of early morning awakenings, which can make for a shitty day.

Sleep > TRT in my opinion. Like many others on this forum, I have found that both hypogonadal low T and supra-physiological high T can sabotage sleep. Using the blend is about seeking balance. Inject first thing in morning. Peak early in day and let levels come down overnight.

For example, @Cataceous personal data based on 4:3 blend ratio showed trough at about 62% of peak. In theory, you could peak at 700-800 around midday followed by overnight/early morning trough of 400-500. And he's on less than 6mg total per day.
as I recall.