Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

[Willyt]

This is great information and I fully agree. I suspect I am like you. I can’t tolerate very much. Recently, I was on 10 mg a day for a few weeks and was not feeling great even on that. The right thing would have been to drop it to 6 to 8 mg per day, but I haven’t quite done that yet. That said, it’s on my radar. Great to hear others succeeding.

I have often thought the same about your physiology after reading many of your posts.

I've been trying to focus more on how I feel overall and less on numbers so long as I'm in range. During my first year of TRT, I was conditioned to think that 500 TT was terrible. Now I recognize that 500 is twice the levels of my pre-TRT days. So long as I feel better than my pre-TRT baseline, its all good.

 

[Willyt]

On the topic of blends, I was reading some of the older Xyosted threads which mentioned that Xyosted absorbs more steadily than the standard formulation of enanthate because Xyosted has none of the preservative Benzyl Alcohol.

It got me thinking, could propionate's use of Benzyl Benzoate further speed up the absorption rate of Enanthate when blended together?

I ask the question because I have noticed that Enan-heavy blends (e.g., 4:1) feel subjectively very different to me than straight enanthate even though the amount of propionate is very small (compared to @Cataceous 4:3 ratio).

Check out Empower's formulations:
Propionate (100mg/ml): Benzyl Benzoate 15% / Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative
Enanthate (200mg/ml): Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative

The post below talks about the role of Benzyl Alcohol in initiating a burst of absorption and seems to imply that other solvents like Benzyl Benzoate could do the same depending on the concentration.

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

 

[Fortunate]

On the topic of blends, I was reading some of the older Xyosted threads which mentioned that Xyosted absorbs more steadily than the standard formulation of enanthate because Xyosted has none of the preservative Benzyl Alcohol.

It got me thinking, could propionate's use of Benzyl Benzoate further speed up the absorption rate of Enanthate when blended together?

I ask the question because I have noticed that Enan-heavy blends (e.g., 4:1) feel subjectively very different to me than straight enanthate even though the amount of propionate is very small (compared to @Cataceous 4:3 ratio).

Check out Empower's formulations:
Propionate (100mg/ml): Benzyl Benzoate 15% / Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative
Enanthate (200mg/ml): Benzyl Alcohol 1% as preservative

The post below talks about the role of Benzyl Alcohol in initiating a burst of absorption and seems to imply that other solvents like Benzyl Benzoate could do the same depending on the concentration.

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

Yes, alcohol does appear to play a role. My guess is that the article has already been cited somewhere here, but check out:
Fundamental understanding of drug absorption from a parenteral oil depot. It touches on absorption characteristics and how it relates to alcohols.

 

[SSHSSA74]

I have been having some success with low dose daily propionate for the last several months. Dose levels have ranged from 8-10 mg injected every morning after waking. Overall, it has been a far better experience than my previous cypionate protocol of 80-100 per week (split every 3.5 days). Evidently, I am one of those guys who responds better to daily variation versus steady state (along with smaller, more frequent doses).

However, straight propionate hits hard and fast as you many of you know, resulting in a steep daily drop-off from peak to trough. I enjoy the energy it brings, but it can be too intense some days even at low doses. I am therefore looking to start a revised protocol using a blend of prop and enanthate (or cypionate) to smooth out the peaks and valleys.

There are number of people on this forum who successfully use low dose daily blends. As I recall, several use a 4:3 enanthate-to-prop blend while others prefer a more prop-heavy blend. Defy/Empower offers a 4:1 cyp-to-prop blend, but that is too light on the prop for my tastes.

QUESTIONS
For those of you using blends, a couple of questions regarding the process for mixing the two together:

1. What online source do you use for buying the sealed sterile vial? This site has been mentioned as one option: Sealed Sterile Vials - Glass Vials & Accessories - Lab Supplies | Med Lab Supply
2. What size sterile vial do you prefer? I mainly see options for 2, 5 or 10 ML.
3. What size/type of syringe do you use to draw out the prop/cyp for blending into the sterile vial?
4. Do you use the same draw syringe on both the prop & cyp?
5. What is total amount that you typically like to blend together at one time in the sterile vial? Enough for 1 week, 1 month, etc.?
6. Is it necessary to gently swirl the blend to re-mix the two before injecting each day?
7. Any other tips from your experience?

I want to try and do this.

 

[BradockTRT]

Hello everyone, I still can't understand how I mix Enanthate with propionate, who can help me please, I take 16 mg of Enanthate ED, so if I mix it with propionate, would it look like this? 10mg Enanthate + 6mg Propionate the 2 have the same concentration 200mg/1ml Someone who can help me?

 

[Cataceous]

Hello everyone, I still can't understand how I mix Enanthate with propionate, who can help me please, I take 16 mg of Enanthate ED, so if I mix it with propionate, would it look like this? 10mg Enanthate + 6mg Propionate the 2 have the same concentration 200mg/1ml Someone who can help me?

There are at least a couple approaches to this. If you're still experimenting with the ester ratio then it could make sense to draw the esters separately into the same syringe for each injection. However, if you have settled on the ester ratio then it is less work to blend the two esters in a separate sterile vial, so that a single draw is needed for each injection. There's also less blunting of the syringe needle with a single draw.

I'll make one change in your example, which is setting the concentration of T propionate to 100 mg/mL, because this is far more common. You would draw 10 mg of T enanthate (TE) (0.05 mL) and then draw 6 mg of T propionate (TP) (0.06 mL), so that your syringe contains a total of 0.11 mL, which would be 11 units in a U-100 insulin syringe.

If you want to keep the vial pressures equalized then it's good to alternate which vial is used first, and inject double the withdrawal volume of air in the first vial and none in the second. That is, for the first injection you would inject 10 units of air before withdrawing 5 units of TE, and then immediately draw the 6 units of TP. For the second injection you would inject 12 units of air into the TP vial before drawing the 6 units, and then immediately draw the 5 units of TE. For the third and fourth injections you duplicate the first and second injections, and so on.

Once the long-term ester ratio is chosen then you can fill a separate vial with the ester blend. Note that in theory it is possible to have slightly different pharmacokinetics with a blend versus unmixed esters in the same syringe. However, I have done both and didn't notice any qualitative or quantitative differences when I made the switch. Suppose you want to be conservative and mix 20 days worth at a time. If you maintain the ratio of 10 mg TE to 6 mg TP then into a new sterile vial you would inject 200 mg of TE (1 mL) and 120 mg of TP (1.2 mL). The dose would be the same total volume, 0.11 mL or 11 units.

There's a further complication, in that if you do the above then you will be increasing your already elevated testosterone dose. The 16 mg TE is giving you 11.5 mg T. The blend increases this to 12.2 mg T. This is because TP contains more testosterone by weight than TE. The shorter half-life of TP also means that peak serum testosterone will be considerably higher than with TE alone. As a result I typically suggest a dose reduction of at least 20%, which puts you at 8 mg TE and 5 mg TP.

 

[BradockTRT]

There are at least a couple approaches to this. If you're still experimenting with the ester ratio then it could make sense to draw the esters separately into the same syringe for each injection. However, if you have settled on the ester ratio then it is less work to blend the two esters in a separate sterile vial, so that a single draw is needed for each injection. There's also less blunting of the syringe needle with a single draw.

I'll make one change in your example, which is setting the concentration of T propionate to 100 mg/mL, because this is far more common. You would draw 10 mg of T enanthate (TE) (0.05 mL) and then draw 6 mg of T propionate (TP) (0.06 mL), so that your syringe contains a total of 0.11 mL, which would be 11 units in a U-100 insulin syringe.

Se você deseja manter as pressões dos frascos equalizadas, é bom alternar qual frasco é usado primeiro e injetar o dobro do volume de retirada de ar no primeiro frasco e nenhum no segundo. Ou seja, para a primeira injeção você injetaria 10 unidades de ar antes de retirar 5 unidades de TE e, em seguida, retiraria imediatamente as 6 unidades de TP. Para a segunda injeção, você injetaria 12 unidades de ar no frasco TP antes de aspirar as 6 unidades e, em seguida, aspirar imediatamente as 5 unidades de TE. Para a terceira e quarta injeções, você duplica a primeira e a segunda injeções e assim por diante.

Uma vez escolhida a proporção de éster de longo prazo, você pode encher um frasco separado com a mistura de éster. Observe que, em teoria, é possível ter uma farmacocinética ligeiramente diferente com uma mistura versus ésteres não misturados na mesma seringa. No entanto, fiz as duas coisas e não notei nenhuma diferença qualitativa ou quantitativa quando fiz a troca. Suponha que você queira ser conservador e misturar 20 dias de cada vez. Se você mantiver a proporção de 10 mg de TE para 6 mg de TP, em um novo frasco estéril, você injetaria 200 mg de TE (1 mL) e 120 mg de TP (1,2 mL). A dose seria o mesmo volume total, 0,11 mL ou 11 unidades.

Há uma complicação adicional, pois se você fizer o que foi dito acima, estará aumentando sua já elevada dose de testosterona. O TE de 16 mg está dando a você 11,5 mg de T. A mistura aumenta para 12,2 mg de T. Isso ocorre porque o TP contém mais testosterona em peso do que o TE. A meia-vida mais curta de TP também significa que o pico de testosterona sérica será consideravelmente maior do que com TE sozinho. Como resultado, normalmente sugiro uma redução de dose de pelo menos 20%, o que o coloca em 8 mg TE e 5 mg TP.

muito obrigado pela explicação

 

[Willyt]

Hello everyone, I still can't understand how I mix Enanthate with propionate, who can help me please, I take 16 mg of Enanthate ED, so if I mix it with propionate, would it look like this? 10mg Enanthate + 6mg Propionate the 2 have the same concentration 200mg/1ml Someone who can help me?

@Cataceous is the man to listen to on the blends. When I test different blend ratios, I always keep it simple by injecting separately with two different syringes usually for 1-2 weeks just to get feel of it. Bit of a pain, but not that bad. Once satisfied, I blend up a batch using a sterile vile (see page 1 of thread).

You could try slowly introducing Prop too, just 2-3 mg per day while cutting back on Enan. Less shock to the system.

 

[grimcontango]

Hey there,

I’ve been following the various threads on Prop / blends for some time and have had a similar journey as @Cataceous (low shbg, cypionate kryptonite, e2 sensitivity etc). I do have pubertal gyno which I’m planning to have removed later in the year - and suspect this plays a role.

I’ve been on Test / AAS for about 5 years and was always fine on low dose Test with Higher tren (but modest dose) for periods of time, always struggled with trying to be on Test-only. Orals never worked consistently enough.
And of course Tren forever is absolutely not sustainable due to other levels going out of whack.
I’ve been through all the usual rollercoasters too with AIs and what not.

Just wanted to share my guinea pig experiment incase it’s useful to the community.

So.. where I’m at is that 3-5mg of Prop works very nicely, with a raging libido for the first part of the day but the trough is a bit too deep.

And..what I am presently experimenting with is 0.04ml Sustanon at 15:00 each day, with 2mg of prop in the evening before bed.
I am using Hcg although I haven’t quite found the right dose, in a sense that I can’t tell much difference, but for belts and braces I’m doing 520 iu EOD (Omnidrel).

I’ve felt consistent the last week or so but need to see if the longer esters creep up on me again as seems to always be the case. For most of my time on TRT/AAS I’ve preferred Test Phenylprop which has a more mid range half life but still compounds and peaks my e2 too high so I end up having to skip / reset.
If I throw daily Tren Ace back in on a minimal dose (30mg/week) of Phenylprop im fine.

For completeness I’ve been on Lexapro 10mg for years (no sexual sides), and I take Cialis 5mg / day, sometimes up to 20mg if it’s date night. SHBG at last test was 11 (up from 8) since starting the dailies.

I’ve had my fair share of embarrassing moments when I’ve needed to perform so hope someone finds my posts useful.

Edit; added a chart of the protocol from the start where I used prop to “bridge” my levels until steady state. This is helpful from a psychological perspective and getting out of the “nothing works” rut when trying to do longer esters daily - so you can at least enjoy yourself a bit and get your confidence back.

To lower my E2 levels and flush everything about before this, I went cold turkey and used Vitamin D at 2000IU/day. I took bloods every 3 days over two weeks before starting pinning again.
My e2 was at 196 pmol/l at that particular peak when I was feeling “good” and subsequently crashed from further pinning (was on around 70mg/week split into two doses) and is now around 114 pmol/l and will likely have risen favourably by my next test.
My emphasis is on E2, not because it’s “bad” but because of the “sweet spot” and being particularly sensitive to it.

 

[Willyt]

So.. where I’m at is that 3-5mg of Prop works very nicely, with a raging libido for the first part of the day but the trough is a bit too deep.

Thanks for the write-up. Were you injecting only 3-5mg Prop daily at one point? Or was that with Sustanon?

I am surprised you can inject prop before bedtime. It would keep me awake

 

[grimcontango]

Thanks for the write-up. Were you injecting only 3-5mg Prop daily at one point? Or was that with Sustanon?

I am surprised you can inject prop before bedtime. It would keep me awake

I was doing up to 10mg prop solo but I don’t feel much difference to the upside between 5mg and 10mg other than a deeper trough, so this is when I thought about cushioning with a longer ester and decided on Sustanon.
For some reason, I feel better a little amped day to day and get better sleep that way.
I don’t really drink but if I do, I have a hard time sleeping.

 

[Forty2]

Hey there, I’ve been following the various threads on Prop / blends for some time and have had a similar journey as @Cataceous (low shbg, cypionate kryptonite, e2 sensitivity etc). I do have pubertal gyno which I’m planning to have removed later in the year - and suspect this plays a role. I’ve been on Test / AAS for about 5 years and was always fine on low dose Test with Higher tren (but modest dose) for periods of time, always struggled with trying to be on Test-only. Orals never worked consistently enough. And of course Tren forever is absolutely not sustainable due to other levels going out of whack. I’ve been through all the usual rollercoasters too with AIs and what not. Just wanted to share my guinea pig experiment incase it’s useful to the community. So.. where I’m at is that 3-5mg of Prop works very nicely, with a raging libido for the first part of the day but the trough is a bit too deep. And..what I am presently experimenting with is 0.04ml Sustanon at 15:00 each day, with 2mg of prop in the evening before bed. I am using Hcg although I haven’t quite found the right dose, in a sense that I can’t tell much difference, but for belts and braces I’m doing 520 iu EOD (Omnidrel). I’ve felt consistent the last week or so but need to see if the longer esters creep up on me again as seems to always be the case. For most of my time on TRT/AAS I’ve preferred Test Phenylprop which has a more mid range half life but still compounds and peaks my e2 too high so I end up having to skip / reset. If I throw daily Tren Ace back in on a minimal dose (30mg/week) of Phenylprop im fine. For completeness I’ve been on Lexapro 10mg for years (no sexual sides), and I take Cialis 5mg / day, sometimes up to 20mg if it’s date night. SHBG at last test was 11 (up from 8) since starting the dailies. I’ve had my fair share of embarrassing moments when I’ve needed to perform so hope someone finds my posts useful. Edit; added a chart of the protocol from the start where I used prop to “bridge” my levels until steady state. This is helpful from a psychological perspective and getting out of the “nothing works” rut when trying to do longer esters daily - so you can at least enjoy yourself a bit and get your confidence back. To lower my E2 levels and flush everything about before this, I went cold turkey and used Vitamin D at 2000IU/day. I took bloods every 3 days over two weeks before starting pinning again. My e2 was at 196 pmol/l at that particular peak when I was feeling “good” and subsequently crashed from further pinning (was on around 70mg/week split into two doses) and is now around 114 pmol/l and will likely have risen favourably by my next test. My emphasis is on E2, not because it’s “bad” but because of the “sweet spot” and being particularly sensitive to it.

Do you think that vitamin D lowers E2?

 

[grimcontango]

Do you think that vitamin D lowers E2?

It seems to help me in this way yes, I recover faster from episodes of high e2

 

[Forty2]

It seems to help me in this way yes, I recover faster from episodes of high e2

Are you also taking vitamin K2?
I've read that vitamin K2 has strong anti aromatase actions.

 

[susuzadam]

So.. where I’m at is that 3-5mg of Prop works very nicely, with a raging libido for the first part of the day but the trough is a bit too deep.

And..what I am presently experimenting with is 0.04ml Sustanon at 15:00 each day, with 2mg of prop in the evening before bed.
I am using Hcg although I haven’t quite found the right dose, in a sense that I can’t tell much difference, but for belts and braces I’m doing 520 iu EOD (Omnidrel).

Hmmm, so you are saying that you will up your test dose by 5mgs to 10mgs.

I'm doing good with 20mg test ace + 2mg e2 val injection a day with 3x5mg dbol.
Injections at 8-9 A.M. energy raises at 12 pm. and stays high until 4P.M. or so.

And in the afternoon I got lower energy, nothing happens majorly but not feeling good like beginning ıf the day.

So, can I add 10mg's test enanthate to this protocol for not to drop my energy, or how much do you recommend.

I take e2 and dbol for e2. I dont take cialis, zinc. Just nicotine lowers my e2, I got some kind of e2 resistance after crashing with aromasin few times.

I also tried shooting tren 30mg yesterday, seperately than my morning shot, when I'm feeling really good at 12pm. Then my penis said goodbye for 12 hours, libido also shut down.
This is the third time I'm trying adding tren to my protocol.

Before than I was using 50mg tren ace a day with cialis for functioning penis, but still low e2 knee pain, mood swings, anxiety, low back pain etc.

I just want to feel better all day long, not high in 12pm and noticeably worse the day.

Do you think adding 10-25mg test-e worth trying?

 

[grimcontango]

I just wanted to update everyone here on where I’m at incase it’s useful.
I was debating with myself about the Tren and why it “helps”, and I surmised that perhaps it’s just due to the overall amount of T. Meaning adding a non aromatising compound is skewing my T to E ratio favourably rather than something in the Tren itself.

So…I’ve been running on 100mg Test cyp every 3 days instead and found that if I take 0.125mg Arimidex the day after the injection, I’m actually stable until the next injection day. That works out at 300mg/ week but if you net off the ester I think it’s around 225mg (if I’m not mistaken 100mg Pharma test cyp would be around 75mg).

So there is some plausibility here that at least in my case, I’ve essentially been under dosing trying to control the E2 but the solution for me is to simply up the T.
I will see how it goes without the Arimidex at some point but for now I want to see what things look like in the next month or so.

I have pubertal gyno, and interestingly using B6 also seems to help in the overall picture.

One thing I have to stress is that there is a massive difference for me between UGL and Pharmaceutical products, particularly Arimidex. So having switched completely to prescription has made things a lot more “accurate” as regardless of which UGL brand of Arimidex or Examestane I’ve used, the pills seem to differ in their concentrations even within the same pack.
So for those struggling with all these things, if you can revert to Pharma / prescription products, it may help to limit the variables.

Best wishes to all

 

[Annte]

There are at least a couple approaches to this. If you're still experimenting with the ester ratio then it could make sense to draw the esters separately into the same syringe for each injection. However, if you have settled on the ester ratio then it is less work to blend the two esters in a separate sterile vial, so that a single draw is needed for each injection. There's also less blunting of the syringe needle with a single draw.

I'll make one change in your example, which is setting the concentration of T propionate to 100 mg/mL, because this is far more common. You would draw 10 mg of T enanthate (TE) (0.05 mL) and then draw 6 mg of T propionate (TP) (0.06 mL), so that your syringe contains a total of 0.11 mL, which would be 11 units in a U-100 insulin syringe.

If you want to keep the vial pressures equalized then it's good to alternate which vial is used first, and inject double the withdrawal volume of air in the first vial and none in the second. That is, for the first injection you would inject 10 units of air before withdrawing 5 units of TE, and then immediately draw the 6 units of TP. For the second injection you would inject 12 units of air into the TP vial before drawing the 6 units, and then immediately draw the 5 units of TE. For the third and fourth injections you duplicate the first and second injections, and so on.

Once the long-term ester ratio is chosen then you can fill a separate vial with the ester blend. Note that in theory it is possible to have slightly different pharmacokinetics with a blend versus unmixed esters in the same syringe. However, I have done both and didn't notice any qualitative or quantitative differences when I made the switch. Suppose you want to be conservative and mix 20 days worth at a time. If you maintain the ratio of 10 mg TE to 6 mg TP then into a new sterile vial you would inject 200 mg of TE (1 mL) and 120 mg of TP (1.2 mL). The dose would be the same total volume, 0.11 mL or 11 units.

There's a further complication, in that if you do the above then you will be increasing your already elevated testosterone dose. The 16 mg TE is giving you 11.5 mg T. The blend increases this to 12.2 mg T. This is because TP contains more testosterone by weight than TE. The shorter half-life of TP also means that peak serum testosterone will be considerably higher than with TE alone. As a result I typically suggest a dose reduction of at least 20%, which puts you at 8 mg TE and 5 mg TP.

I Did exakt this on my trip too Mallorca i premixed 13 days of test e an p mix. But when i started too do my daily dosage i only got 7 days out off the vial

 

[Mastodont]

Do you think that vitamin D lowers E2?

Tissue-selective regulation of aromatase expression by calcitriol: implications for breast cancer therapy - PubMed

Aromatase, the enzyme that catalyzes estrogen synthesis, is critical for the progression of estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer (BCa) in postmenopausal women. We show that calcitriol, the hormonally active form of vitamin D, regulates the expression of aromatase in a tissue-selective...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov