Test P improved TRT, libido still at 0 – what next?

[ziegen]

I don't think that your SHBG is the problem.

Good luck and success to you, and I'm looking forward to hear of your progress.

P.S. There seem to be places in the UK where one can get all treatment options. https://www.optimale.co.uk/trt-uk/the-best-trt-protocol/

Thank you, I will update as I try things and see if anything changes.

Prolactin, thyroid and salt are three other things to consider. You can slightly lower prolactin by taking a low (600mg or less) dose of Chasteberry every other day. Low thyroid can affect a lot of things. The book The Salt Fix discusses that low salt can lower libido. More generally, if you have any reason to suspect that you may have some sort of chronic infection, that is something else that could be an issue, as could some form of unresolved emotional trauma.

I didn't want to write too much in the original post, but prior to TRT I had, for several years, the perfect lifestyle and was doing quite good in life. I also had my entire body and organs checked for any causes for low T, yet everything was in perfect shape. I checked thyroid, vitamins and minerals as well and it was all fine. Prolactin is elevated in the test I posted, however in most other tests it's roughly at 10, which is middle of the range, but I did consider trying Caber to lower it a bit more, but it's unlikely that that would do anything based on my current levels. I'm also taking P5P right now, which supposedly reduces Prolactin, but I'm not feeling any effects, I started taking it for the supposed Dopamine effects, because I think I might have trouble there. Regarding salt, I train a lot so I lose a lot of salt and overall I eat pretty salty food, so I think I should be good on this front.

The thing with my libido is that I had it and then suddenly at 17 I lost it fully. Nothing special was happening back then at any front in my life, so there is quite honestly no trigger. It was also a sudden loss. I just assume that that was the point where my hormones were so low that things just stopped working. Then improving my life and lifestyle on many points did nothing for it and eventually I discovered low T levels, while nothing else was wrong. Mentally I don't think I have any deep or specific issues, sure I'm not happy with the state of my body and it has put me in awkward and painful situations, but I also had months and years when I was focusing on different stuff and I wasn't thinking about any of this while doing TRT. So if it was mental, then I think there were plenty of situations where I'd feel some sort of a libido, yet that has never happened, regardless of my mental state.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Thanks for the background. Most importantly, hang in there and keep trying things. Two things come to mind. You might at least have a conversation with a Hypnotherapist and see if they have any insights. Hypnosis might not reveal or resolve anything for you, but it might give you some insights if you can find a therapist who has worked with similar issues. Also, if there is anything extreme in your eating or activity or anything else, that seems like it would be something to question. Even if something (like overtraining for example) did not cause the original issue it might be contributing to maintaining it.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

You might also look into Deprenyl (selegiline) which works on a pathway connected to dopamine IIRC

 

[ziegen]

Thanks for the background. Most importantly, hang in there and keep trying things. Two things come to mind. You might at least have a conversation with a Hypnotherapist and see if they have any insights. Hypnosis might not reveal or resolve anything for you, but it might give you some insights if you can find a therapist who has worked with similar issues. Also, if there is anything extreme in your eating or activity or anything else, that seems like it would be something to question. Even if something (like overtraining for example) did not cause the original issue it might be contributing to maintaining it.

I used to overtrain years ago, but I figured out it was too much and have since reduce the intensity and amount of exercising, which did improve my well-being. Well now I'm also a bit older and have other things to do in life, so exercise isn't as big of a hobby as it used to be. Also when I started TRT we had lockdowns so I was doing just light training during that time. Overall I don't think I have anything extreme going on.
There seems to be 1 private doctor in my country who seems to deal with hormonal issues along with hypnosis, might be worth checking out if nothing else pans out.

You might also look into Deprenyl (selegiline) which works on a pathway connected to dopamine IIRC

I'm not familiar with this substance, I heard it was mentioned a few times, but I don't know the details. Upon a decent search I cannot see where I could even get it from.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I used to overtrain years ago, but I figured out it was too much and have since reduce the intensity and amount of exercising, which did improve my well-being. Well now I'm also a bit older and have other things to do in life, so exercise isn't as big of a hobby as it used to be. Also when I started TRT we had lockdowns so I was doing just light training during that time. Overall I don't think I have anything extreme going on.
There seems to be 1 private doctor in my country who seems to deal with hormonal issues along with hypnosis, might be worth checking out if nothing else pans out.


I'm not familiar with this substance, I heard it was mentioned a few times, but I don't know the details. Upon a decent search I cannot see where I could even get it from.

Deprenyl used to be big in the anti-aging world. You can get it from the Indian suppliers like alldaychemist. It primarily blocks the enzyme which breaks down dopamine however, as with anything, do your own research and see if it has good risk/reward to try for you.

 

[ziegen]

Deprenyl used to be big in the anti-aging world. You can get it from the Indian suppliers like alldaychemist. It primarily blocks the enzyme which breaks down dopamine however, as with anything, do your own research and see if it has good risk/reward to try for you.

Thanks, I'll look into it and will likely try it at some point.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 1:
A few days before making this thread I decided to give Nandrolone (Deca) a try, as some report better mood and libido on it. I got it in the NPP form, which has a half life of 2 days. I dropped my Test P dose from 140 mg/week to 105 mg/week and added 105 mg/week of NPP. It kicked in roughly 6-7 days later and I knew that because the symptom relief that Test P has brought has started becoming less effective. Since my sleep, digestion and energy were started being negatively affected, while also having no desired positives I decided to drop it after 2 weeks. I wanted to try it for at least a month, but I knew that this wasn't the right direction. Of course I also did a blood test at trough before ending its use:


Total T: 3022 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 23 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 13.27 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)
DHEA: 15 umol/L (range 5-16 umol/L)


These results surprised me. Considering 175 mg/week of Test P gave me a trough of 1040 ng/dl, yet here I had a much lower dose, while Total T was much, much higher. I think it just shows how extremely potent Nandrolone is. My belief is that the positive effects from Nandrolone come from not converting to E2 that much and as such those who have high E2 issues, especially on higher Test doses, reap the benefits. Yet on lower Test doses, such as mine, it can cause low E2 symptoms. I also tested Prolactin to see if it increased too much, as this is also something that Nandrolone can cause, and I tested DHEA as I was supplementing 25 mg/day and here it shows that it's on top of the range. It's likely too high once the pill is digested, so I dropped the dose of DHEA and Pregnenolone to 10mg/day.

Nandrolone pros:

• Based on these levels it's no doubt you'll make crazy gains.
• While I wasn't on it for a long time, I did notice joints felt better and some old injuries became a bit better.

Nandrolone cons:

• Lost a good amount of the benefits from Test P.
• Worse mental state.
• Increased irritability and response to irritations.

Overall once I figure out my issues I would be interested in running Nandrolone again, though in a even lower dose, for the joint benefits. Maybe 2 months max, but for now I'm done with it.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 2:
After dropping Nandrolone I waited a few days and then dropped my Test P dose from 105mg/week to 84mg/week, as I wanted to try low dose TRT. After roughly 4 days since the last Nandrolone injection I started noticing the benefits of Test P coming back. Overall I've been on this dose for about a bit over a week now and I can say that while digestion is still pretty good, my energy, sleep and recovery have definitely taken a hit. Before I slept roughly 8 hours a night and I was good for the rest of the day, yet now I can easily sleep 9 hours and I still get tired 1-2 times per day. I did not feel any additional benefits from being on this dose. I took a blood test:

Total T: 323 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 21 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 11.16 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)

Honestly this trough is way too low and I'm not surprised I'm having energy issues. I don't think the trough should be lower than roughly 500 ng/dl. Due to this I increased my dose to 120 mg/week and the energy issues should be solved in a couple of days. I'm glad I tried it, but I can definitely say that this isn't the right course for me, regardless of what my Free T levels are. After a few days on 120 mg/week I'll do another blood test, where I expect the trough to be in the low 600s. Once again I tested Prolactin as I wanted to check what my levels are as I was taking 40mg of P5P daily, which is supposed to lower Prolactin, and I wanted to see if this happened here. It did not, these are my regular levels, which is kinda expected as my dose was pretty low, people report running it at 100mg+. I did get eye twitching due to it, so I dropped it as soon as I did this test. The eye twitching stopped after a couple of days without P5P.

I ordered the 20% DHT gel from AlphaGels and it should arrive in the first half of October, so I think that will have the best chance of solving my libido issues. Until then I'll be on 120 mg/week and I'm also considering tying injecting IM, just to see if there's a difference in blood levels, as some people note. Until now I've always injected SubQ and I prefer it, but I was never on IM for a longer time, so it might be a good opportunity to try it out and answer the IM vs SubQ question for myself. Overall I can say that I'm glad to be on Test P to try out all these things, as I can see the results quickly and adjust accordingly.

 

[madman]

UPDATE 1:
A few days before making this thread I decided to give Nandrolone (Deca) a try, as some report better mood and libido on it. I got it in the NPP form, which has a half life of 2 days. I dropped my Test P dose from 140 mg/week to 105 mg/week and added 105 mg/week of NPP. It kicked in roughly 6-7 days later and I knew that because the symptom relief that Test P has brought has started becoming less effective. Since my sleep, digestion and energy were started being negatively affected, while also having no desired positives I decided to drop it after 2 weeks. I wanted to try it for at least a month, but I knew that this wasn't the right direction. Of course I also did a blood test at trough before ending its use:


Total T: 3022 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 23 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 13.27 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)
DHEA: 15 umol/L (range 5-16 umol/L)


These results surprised me. Considering 175 mg/week of Test P gave me a trough of 1040 ng/dl, yet here I had a much lower dose, while Total T was much, much higher. I think it just shows how extremely potent Nandrolone is. My belief is that the positive effects from Nandrolone come from not converting to E2 that much and as such those who have high E2 issues, especially on higher Test doses, reap the benefits. Yet on lower Test doses, such as mine, it can cause low E2 symptoms. I also tested Prolactin to see if it increased too much, as this is also something that Nandrolone can cause, and I tested DHEA as I was supplementing 25 mg/day and here it shows that it's on top of the range. It's likely too high once the pill is digested, so I dropped the dose of DHEA and Pregnenolone to 10mg/day.

Nandrolone pros:

• Based on these levels it's no doubt you'll make crazy gains.
• While I wasn't on it for a long time, I did notice joints felt better and some old injuries became a bit better.

Nandrolone cons:

• Lost a good amount of the benefits from Test P.
• Worse mental state.
• Increased irritability and response to irritations.

Overall once I figure out my issues I would be interested in running Nandrolone again, though in a even lower dose, for the joint benefits. Maybe 2 months max, but for now I'm done with it.

UPDATE 1:

A few days before making this thread I decided to give Nandrolone (Deca) a try, as some report better mood and libido on it. I got it in the NPP form, which has a half life of 2 days. I dropped my Test P dose from 140 mg/week to 105 mg/week and added 105 mg/week of NPP. It kicked in roughly 6-7 days later and I knew that because the symptom relief that Test P has brought has started becoming less effective. Since my sleep, digestion and energy were started being negatively affected, while also having no desired positives I decided to drop it after 2 weeks. I wanted to try it for at least a month, but I knew that this wasn't the right direction. Of course I also did a blood test at trough before ending its use:


Total T: 3022 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 23 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 13.27 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)
DHEA: 15 umol/L (range 5-16 umol/L)


These results surprised me. Considering 175 mg/week of Test P gave me a trough of 1040 ng/dl, yet here I had a much lower dose, while Total T was much, much higher.


Nandrolone pros:

• Based on these levels it's no doubt you'll make crazy gains.
• While I wasn't on it for a long time, I did notice joints felt better and some old injuries became a bit better.

Nandrolone cons:

• Lost a good amount of the benefits from Test P.
• Worse mental state.
• Increased irritability and response to irritations.

You are clearly not understanding how this works!

Wasting your time here testing your TT using the standard immunoassay when using nandrolone as it will inflate your TT and skew/falsely inflate the results due to cross reactivity (interference caused by compounds with structural similarity to the target steroid of the assay).

Esterified nandrolone is cleaved by esterase enzymes fairly quick once it hits the bloodstream and all that is left is free N (hydrolysis of ND to N).

*It is argued that after injection of the oil depot, ND molecules will be transported via the lymphatic system towards lymph nodes. From here, it will enter the central circulation and within half an hour it will hydrolyse to the active N compound.

You are not walking around with a testosterone level of 3000 ng/dL.

Just be clear here no one is making crazy gains running a therapeutic dose of 100 mg NPP or ND/week, pure nonsense.

The anabolic properties of nandrolone truly start to shine in the 200-600 mg/week range as in doses beyond/well beyond therapeutic.

Same can be said for testosterone when it comes to the anabolic properties as 300-600 mg T/week would be where it's at!

Most would consider 300mg T/week getting your feet wet!

One would need to abuse T/AAS using steroid doses as in doses beyond/well beyond therapeutic if your goal was to pack on the most muscle mass, increase strength and enhance recovery!

Now if we are talking about hitting an ridiculously high TT 3000+ ng/dL on T only which would require one to use/abuse doses beyond therapeutic then it is a given one would expect to gain a fair amount of muscle/strength when following a proper diet/training protocol let alone genetics will have the final say when it comes to how well one responds to such!




UPDATE 2:

After dropping Nandrolone I waited a few days and then dropped my Test P dose from 105mg/week to 84mg/week, as I wanted to try low dose TRT. After roughly 4 days since the last Nandrolone injection I started noticing the benefits of Test P coming back. Overall I've been on this dose for about a bit over a week now and I can say that while digestion is still pretty good, my energy, sleep and recovery have definitely taken a hit. Before I slept roughly 8 hours a night and I was good for the rest of the day, yet now I can easily sleep 9 hours and I still get tired 1-2 times per day. I did not feel any additional benefits from being on this dose.


I took a blood test:

Total T: 323 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 21 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 11.16 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)




UPDATE:1

Of course I also did a blood test at trough before ending its use:

Total T: 3022 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 23 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 13.27 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)
DHEA: 15 umol/L (range 5-16 umol/L)




You are now hitting a low trough TT on 84 mg TP/week.

Highly doubtful anyone would feel great at such level.

Even then if you compare your most recent results 84 mg TP/week with your previous results 105 mg TP + 105 mg NPP/week you can clearly see that your estradiol and prolactin are just a little bit higher and seeing as you unfortunately used the direct immunoassay your result for TT 3000+ ng/dL was skewed/inflated due to cross reactivity and your trough TT would have most likely been descent on 105 mg TP/week as you increased the dose of TP by 21 mg going from 84--->105 mg/week.

One can easily achieve a descent bump in TT increasing the dose by 20 mg/week.




post #13

TRT and low estrogen

Struggling to keep my estrogen levels up. Weekly protocol 30mg test cyp x 3, HCG 450 IU x 2, Oxandrolone (for joint pain) 12.5mg x 5. I was on nandrolone 50mg a week and had similar issues. My joints feel like they are running l dry, especially my knees. Everything feels normal after hcg for...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Gman86]

UPDATE 1:
A few days before making this thread I decided to give Nandrolone (Deca) a try, as some report better mood and libido on it. I got it in the NPP form, which has a half life of 2 days. I dropped my Test P dose from 140 mg/week to 105 mg/week and added 105 mg/week of NPP. It kicked in roughly 6-7 days later and I knew that because the symptom relief that Test P has brought has started becoming less effective. Since my sleep, digestion and energy were started being negatively affected, while also having no desired positives I decided to drop it after 2 weeks. I wanted to try it for at least a month, but I knew that this wasn't the right direction. Of course I also did a blood test at trough before ending its use:


Total T: 3022 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 23 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 13.27 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)
DHEA: 15 umol/L (range 5-16 umol/L)


These results surprised me. Considering 175 mg/week of Test P gave me a trough of 1040 ng/dl, yet here I had a much lower dose, while Total T was much, much higher. I think it just shows how extremely potent Nandrolone is. My belief is that the positive effects from Nandrolone come from not converting to E2 that much and as such those who have high E2 issues, especially on higher Test doses, reap the benefits. Yet on lower Test doses, such as mine, it can cause low E2 symptoms. I also tested Prolactin to see if it increased too much, as this is also something that Nandrolone can cause, and I tested DHEA as I was supplementing 25 mg/day and here it shows that it's on top of the range. It's likely too high once the pill is digested, so I dropped the dose of DHEA and Pregnenolone to 10mg/day.

Nandrolone pros:

• Based on these levels it's no doubt you'll make crazy gains.
• While I wasn't on it for a long time, I did notice joints felt better and some old injuries became a bit better.

Nandrolone cons:

• Lost a good amount of the benefits from Test P.
• Worse mental state.
• Increased irritability and response to irritations.

Overall once I figure out my issues I would be interested in running Nandrolone again, though in an even lower dose, for the joint benefits. Maybe 2 months max, but for now I'm done with it.

So couple things that need correcting. Nandrolone converts extremely little to E2, as well as prolactin. It’s a myth that nandrolone converts moderately or heavily into prolactin. On an Hrt dose of nandrolone by itself, say 100-200mg/ week, E2 will usually back in the single digits, and prolactin will come back bottom of the barrel.

What nandrolone actually does, is sensitize estrogen and prolactin receptors, making whatever estrogen and prolactin u have in ur system feel more potent. I’ve heard that it can also increase the rate at which testosterone converts into estrogen. Not 100% sure about that last one, but I’ve heard it quite a few times.

So even tho ur E2 came back at 23, u might have been experiencing high E2/ prolactin like symptoms a bit, in regards to ur mood feeling off.

And ur total test level came back at 3022 because u had a non sensitive total testosterone panel done. It picked up the nandrolone in ur system as if it were testosterone. Only the sensitive version of a total testosterone panel will be sensitive enough to distinguish between a nandrolone and a testosterone molecule. So if u were on the same dose of test prop and NPP, at the time, ur actual testosterone level was probably half that. Maybe around 1500. Which doesn’t make much sense when ur test level came back at 1040 on 175mg of test per week. Maybe ur NPP was more potent than advertised.

 

[Forty2]

I think we have a really bad understanding of SHBG. The mentality for a long time is/was that a low SHBG is good, as it frees up hormones to be used, but who knows if that's good or bad. Maybe it's just one part of the balance. It does seem like people with lower levels of SHBG, like below 25, seem to be having more issues with dialing in, yet some do just fine. There is some mention of the "low SHBG curse" as a reference to this problem. The additional problem is that it's possible to quite easily reduce SHBG with either Boron supplementation or increasing injection frequency, however increasing it is a problem. Best things I found were some extreme diets, like carnivore, etc., decreasing dose frequency or using a SERMs. If nothing else works out, one of the things I intend to try is using Enclomiphene, along with Test P, as a substitute to HCG. Maybe it would raise my SHBG and give me some additional symptom relief? Who know, but might be worth trying in the future if nothing else works out.

Forget enclomiphene if libido is important to you. It destroys it!

 

[Forty2]

UPDATE 2:
After dropping Nandrolone I waited a few days and then dropped my Test P dose from 105mg/week to 84mg/week, as I wanted to try low dose TRT. After roughly 4 days since the last Nandrolone injection I started noticing the benefits of Test P coming back. Overall I've been on this dose for about a bit over a week now and I can say that while digestion is still pretty good, my energy, sleep and recovery have definitely taken a hit. Before I slept roughly 8 hours a night and I was good for the rest of the day, yet now I can easily sleep 9 hours and I still get tired 1-2 times per day. I did not feel any additional benefits from being on this dose. I took a blood test:

Total T: 323 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 21 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 11.16 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)

Honestly this trough is way too low and I'm not surprised I'm having energy issues. I don't think the trough should be lower than roughly 500 ng/dl. Due to this I increased my dose to 120 mg/week and the energy issues should be solved in a couple of days. I'm glad I tried it, but I can definitely say that this isn't the right course for me, regardless of what my Free T levels are. After a few days on 120 mg/week I'll do another blood test, where I expect the trough to be in the low 600s. Once again I tested Prolactin as I wanted to check what my levels are as I was taking 40mg of P5P daily, which is supposed to lower Prolactin, and I wanted to see if this happened here. It did not, these are my regular levels, which is kinda expected as my dose was pretty low, people report running it at 100mg+. I did get eye twitching due to it, so I dropped it as soon as I did this test. The eye twitching stopped after a couple of days without P5P.

I ordered the 20% DHT gel from AlphaGels and it should arrive in the first half of October, so I think that will have the best chance of solving my libido issues. Until then I'll be on 120 mg/week and I'm also considering tying injecting IM, just to see if there's a difference in blood levels, as some people note. Until now I've always injected SubQ and I prefer it, but I was never on IM for a longer time, so it might be a good opportunity to try it out and answer the IM vs SubQ question for myself. Overall I can say that I'm glad to be on Test P to try out all these things, as I can see the results quickly and adjust accordingly.

Normally trough TT is about 50% of peak TT on Test prop, so if your trough was only 323 ng/dl on 84mg/week of prop, it strongly suggests that your prop is underdosed.

 

[Mastodont]

So daily injections, that through is not super low, meaning you are not spending alot of time on low levels, even so if the peak is double that it might still be bit too low, might be another story if you were injecting IM, lots of anecdotes where subq results in lower levels.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 1:

A few days before making this thread I decided to give Nandrolone (Deca) a try, as some report better mood and libido on it. I got it in the NPP form, which has a half life of 2 days. I dropped my Test P dose from 140 mg/week to 105 mg/week and added 105 mg/week of NPP. It kicked in roughly 6-7 days later and I knew that because the symptom relief that Test P has brought has started becoming less effective. Since my sleep, digestion and energy were started being negatively affected, while also having no desired positives I decided to drop it after 2 weeks. I wanted to try it for at least a month, but I knew that this wasn't the right direction. Of course I also did a blood test at trough before ending its use:


Total T: 3022 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 23 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 13.27 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)
DHEA: 15 umol/L (range 5-16 umol/L)


These results surprised me. Considering 175 mg/week of Test P gave me a trough of 1040 ng/dl, yet here I had a much lower dose, while Total T was much, much higher.


Nandrolone pros:

• Based on these levels it's no doubt you'll make crazy gains.
• While I wasn't on it for a long time, I did notice joints felt better and some old injuries became a bit better.

Nandrolone cons:

• Lost a good amount of the benefits from Test P.
• Worse mental state.
• Increased irritability and response to irritations.

You are clearly not understanding how this works!

Wasting your time here testing your TT using the standard immunoassay when using nandrolone as it will inflate your TT and skew/falsely inflate the results due to cross reactivity (interference caused by compounds with structural similarity to the target steroid of the assay).

Esterified nandrolone is cleaved by esterase enzymes fairly quick once it hits the bloodstream and all that is left is free N (hydrolysis of ND to N).

*It is argued that after injection of the oil depot, ND molecules will be transported via the lymphatic system towards lymph nodes. From here, it will enter the central circulation and within half an hour it will hydrolyse to the active N compound.

You are not walking around with a testosterone level of 3000 ng/dL.

Just be clear here no one is making crazy gains running a therapeutic dose of 100 mg NPP or ND/week, pure nonsense.

The anabolic properties of nandrolone truly start to shine in the 200-600 mg/week range as in doses beyond/well beyond therapeutic.

Same can be said for testosterone when it comes to the anabolic properties as 300-600 mg T/week would be where it's at!

Most would consider 300mg T/week getting your feet wet!

One would need to abuse T/AAS using steroid doses as in doses beyond/well beyond therapeutic if your goal was to pack on the most muscle mass, increase strength and enhance recovery!

Now if we are talking about hitting an ridiculously high TT 3000+ ng/dL on T only which would require one to use/abuse doses beyond therapeutic then it is a given one would expect to gain a fair amount of muscle/strength when following a proper diet/training protocol let alone genetics will have the final say when it comes to how well one responds to such!




UPDATE 2:

After dropping Nandrolone I waited a few days and then dropped my Test P dose from 105mg/week to 84mg/week, as I wanted to try low dose TRT. After roughly 4 days since the last Nandrolone injection I started noticing the benefits of Test P coming back. Overall I've been on this dose for about a bit over a week now and I can say that while digestion is still pretty good, my energy, sleep and recovery have definitely taken a hit. Before I slept roughly 8 hours a night and I was good for the rest of the day, yet now I can easily sleep 9 hours and I still get tired 1-2 times per day. I did not feel any additional benefits from being on this dose.


I took a blood test:

Total T: 323 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 21 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 11.16 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)




UPDATE:1

Of course I also did a blood test at trough before ending its use:

Total T: 3022 ng/dl (range 185-730 ng/dl)
E2: 23 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
Prolactin: 13.27 ug/L (range 3.5-19.5 ug/L)
DHEA: 15 umol/L (range 5-16 umol/L)




You are now hitting a low trough TT on 84 mg TP/week.

Highly doubtful anyone would feel great at such level.

Even then if you compare your most recent results 84 mg TP/week with your previous results 105 mg TP + 105 mg NPP/week you can clearly see that your estradiol and prolactin are just a little bit higher and seeing as you unfortunately used the direct immunoassay your result for TT 3000+ ng/dL was skewed/inflated due to cross reactivity and your trough TT would have most likely been descent on 105 mg TP/week as you increased the dose of TP by 21 mg going from 84--->105 mg/week.

One can easily achieve a descent bump in TT increasing the dose by 20 mg/week.




post #13

TRT and low estrogen

Struggling to keep my estrogen levels up. Weekly protocol 30mg test cyp x 3, HCG 450 IU x 2, Oxandrolone (for joint pain) 12.5mg x 5. I was on nandrolone 50mg a week and had similar issues. My joints feel like they are running l dry, especially my knees. Everything feels normal after hcg for...

www.excelmale.com

So couple things that need correcting. Nandrolone converts extremely little to E2, as well as prolactin. It’s a myth that nandrolone converts moderately or heavily into prolactin. On an Hrt dose of nandrolone by itself, say 100-200mg/ week, E2 will usually back in the single digits, and prolactin will come back bottom of the barrel.

What nandrolone actually does, is sensitize estrogen and prolactin receptors, making whatever estrogen and prolactin u have in ur system feel more potent. I’ve heard that it can also increase the rate at which testosterone converts into estrogen. Not 100% sure about that last one, but I’ve heard it quite a few times.

So even tho ur E2 came back at 23, u might have been experiencing high E2/ prolactin like symptoms a bit, in regards to ur mood feeling off.

And ur total test level came back at 3022 because u had a non sensitive total testosterone panel done. It picked up the nandrolone in ur system as if it were testosterone. Only the sensitive version of a total testosterone panel will be sensitive enough to distinguish between a nandrolone and a testosterone molecule. So if u were on the same dose of test prop and NPP, at the time, ur actual testosterone level was probably half that. Maybe around 1500. Which doesn’t make much sense when ur test level came back at 1040 on 175mg of test per week. Maybe ur NPP was more potent than advertised.

I see, thank you for the corrections, I wasn't really aware on how all these different testing methods function, however it's all I can get here. So I guess it's good enough to test T when you're just taking T, but not so great when adding other similar compounds.
My Estradiol test also isn't sensitive, can't get it here either, so it's hard to say where exactly it sits. I do the test just to get at least some feeling on where it could be, and so far whenever I did something to increase E2 the increase has always been shown on the blood test as well. I did mention that Nandrolone doesn't convert to E2 much, and I also tried manipulating E2 in both directions. So far whenever I increased E2 I never got any side effects or benefits, so it seems I can handle it well. However when I decreased it I did start to feel bad mentally/emotionally, so I'd sooner say that my E2 was too low in this case, based on previous experimentation.

 

[ziegen]

Forget enclomiphene if libido is important to you. It destroys it!

Why? I know that it's harder to dose correctly and that it can start increasing E2, however if you could take a pill instead of an injection while getting good benefits it would be good no? Also if DHT is my issue, then that would likely be resolved as well. But I don't know if it adheres to the natural rhythm.

Normally trough TT is about 50% of peak TT on Test prop, so if your trough was only 323 ng/dl on 84mg/week of prop, it strongly suggests that your prop is underdosed.

That's always a possibility when dealing with UGLs, I'll see what my blood test says early next week. I assume that my trough should be in the high 500s or low 600s, and that would about match my trough when I was on Test E 125mg/week. With Test E I had different brands and I had similar results overall. We'll see otherwise the worst case is that I have to increase the dose, but right now I'm already feeling pretty good after increasing it.

So daily injections, that through is not super low, meaning you are not spending alot of time on low levels, even so if the peak is double that it might still be bit too low, might be another story if you were injecting IM, lots of anecdotes where subq results in lower levels.

I mean it is quite low, but yes I didn't spend a lot of time on it and I do understand that most of the day I'm on higher levels, which is the reason why I still had benefits from TRT and didn't feel absolutely horrible. In any case I just wanted to try low dose and see where I stand, as I never went that low and wanted to cross that out. So now it's tried out and it wasn't for me.
I'll do a blood test soon now that I'm on 120mg/week SubQ and afterwards I'll switch to IM and do another blood test a week later to answer this question for myself. The IM vs SubQ question hasn't really been answered yet, some say it feels the same and their levels are the same, some say that it's a night and day difference, so it seems it's based on the individual, as are all things when it comes to TRT. Considering I tried higher doses I would image I'd feel the same, but my levels might be higher. We'll see.

 

[Forty2]

Why? I know that it's harder to dose correctly and that it can start increasing E2, however if you could take a pill instead of an injection while getting good benefits it would be good no? Also if DHT is my issue, then that would likely be resolved as well. But I don't know if it adheres to the natural rhythm.

Enclomiphene blocks estrogen receptors in the brain important for libido.
I've experimented with it multiple times at different doses/frequencies. The only positive I got from it was an energy boost.

 

[ziegen]

Enclomiphene blocks estrogen receptors in the brain important for libido.
I've experimented with it multiple times at different doses/frequencies. The only positive I got from it was an energy boost.

I see, I'll try all other things first and hopefully something fixes my issues, then sometime in the future I might give it a go, just to check if I can handle it with good results and without side effects. Most people don't do well on it, but some do, so I might just check for myself, I mean if I have the desired results from some other protocol, then I can always go back. Thank you for the information.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 3:
As I mentioned in my previous post, I decided to increase my dose from 84mg/week to 120mg/week. I'm also pinning SubQ and have been doing so since day 1 of TRT. On the second day of the dose increase I was already feeling better, but on the third day the intensity of symptom relief was in full swing. A couple of days before the next blood test I was feeling a bit off in terms of energy, however I did work outside a lot during these two days so I just thought it was that. I went for a blood test:

Total T: 373 ng/dl (range 221- 871 ng/dl)
E2: 34 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)

Ok, what happened? I have increased the dose by a good degree yet the results are barely better than on 84mg/week, but I did feel a lot better. I don't have full knowledge of the testing method, so I guess it's possible that the test wasn't accurate this time? I don't know, maybe, however I also think it could've been a mistake from my side. This time I got my blood taken roughly 1.5 hours later than usual, but what I think could be the cause is a wrong pinning place. The two days before the test I pinned on the side of my middle abs, close to the ribs, there's a spot of shallow fat that I have occasionally pinned in. Maybe there is too little fat and it doesn't absorb too well? I will try to do better next time and be more consistent.

In any case I already decided to pin IM for my next experimentation. I pinned IM a few times, but not consistently, so I didn't know if it would be better. I decided that delts and quads would be my spots to hit the muscle for sure. Going in I thought that I would have higher levels, but that I would feel the same, as higher doses didn't bring any additional effects. After a week I did a blood test:

Total T: 706 ng/dl (range 221- 871 ng/dl)
E2: 36 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)

So the results are about what I would expect from pinning 140mg/week, honestly I expected roughly 800 based on the 1040 results from pinning 175mg/week SubQ. I felt no changes in benefits. So it seems like for me IM is practically the same as SubQ. I should also mention that my bodyfat % is roughly 12%, and I did hear that leaner people have less variation between IM and SubQ pinning. Overall I can say that I vastly prefer SubQ and will go back to it and stick with it. IM pinning didn't hurt at all, but the PIP was pretty bad. I already pinned delts before, but even here I had some annoying pain, however quads were something new and the pain was horrible. Left quad hurt for like 3 days, while the right one for 1 day, each step I took I was in pain. It was a "virgin" muscle so I guess it would stop being this painful if I continued, but overall I can say, I wasn't a fan of IM, I never had a painful experience like this with SubQ.

I switch to SubQ again with 140mg/week and was waiting to do another blood test. This time I focused on being very consistent to get proper results. I also avoided the places with little fat and stuck to the ones I usually pin in. Here are the results:

Total T: 731 ng/dl (range 221-871 ng/dl)
E2: 40 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)

The results are about as I expected, I guess something went wrong with the last SubQ test. Interesting that they're higher than with IM pinning, so it seems like there is no concrete difference between IM and SubQ for me, which is something I'm happy with. I'll drop my dose back to 120mg/week and stick to that for the near future. In the last months I have, for myself, fully answered the questions regarding TRT basics, which is something I should've done in the first year tbh. Short vs long ester, IM vs SubQ and dosage. Next week I should get my DHT gel from AlphaGels, it has already arrived, but customs here are slow. We'll see what happens then.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 4:

12 days ago I have received the 20% DHT gel from AlphaGels. I have written about it a bit in another thread and I will post the link to the post at the bottom of this update, if anyone is interested. I tried applying 1ml (200mg) to the chest and shoulder area and contrary to the experience of many, I didn't get any benefits immediately (let's say within 8 hours or so), so I can say that I was quite disappointed, as I'm desperate to fix my libido. Considering that my DHT has always been roughly half of my total T, maybe it takes a few weeks to fully kick in, similar as how it is when you start TRT? I decided on a simple protocol of 0.5ml twice a day (AM and PM), applied to the scrotum, for a total of 200mg of DHT per day and would wait to see what happens.

The third day, before the first application, I noticed some effects:

• Massively improved mood: When I woke up I was suddenly in a great mood, with an increase in motivation, I can't stay still and have to do things constantly. This is surprising since in the last couple of months I've been in a terrible mood due to some life events. I even feel better than how I felt before my current issues and the improvements to mood are still going strong almost two weeks later.
• Reduced hunger and appetite: I was always a hungry person, but I'm also training and doing things all the time, so I'd say it's to be expected. Additionally I'm also decently tall and muscular, which requires more energy. However I noticed that I just don't feel that hungry anymore, my appetite has also taken a good hit, and to be honest, my appetite has always been higher than hunger, which can lead to some overeating. I don't think it's bad that these two things got reduced, but I think the reduction has been a bit too much.
• Massively reduced food cravings: Linked to hunger and appetite, but my cravings have suddenly stopped as well. In the last years whenever I went to the store I was always looking at candy or just good food to eat, even if I wasn't that hungry. Now I don't want to buy that shit, it actually kinda disgusts me. Something interesting that popped into my mind is that prior to TRT I never really had such strong cravings. While I had lower hormonal levels in general, my T : DHT ratio was much better, than it is now that I'm on injections, so maybe my cravings are connected with low DHT or bad ratio? Maybe it's a bit too soon to make such conclusions, but to me it's quite interesting what's been happening since adding DHT.

After a week I noticed an additional effect:

• Reduction in acne: I always had oily skin, so I also had a good amount of acne, especially as a teen. As I cleaned up my diet (removed/reduced dairy products and candy) and became older, my acne has been reduced to a mild form. Honestly it really isn't that bad and I don't care for it. TRT also didn't increase acne at all. Now the acne is basically gone. I suspect this is due to the anti E2 properties of DHT, if I understand correctly, it doesn't lower E2, but prevents its expression, or something like that. My acne also disappeared when I was trying out low dose Arimidex, which made me feel worse, but cleaned up my skin, which is why I assume this has something to do with E2. During the time I was trying AIs I was also eating like shit and was sweaty for most of the day, so not a good thing for acne, yet I didn't get any.

I have also done a couple of blood tests to check my DHT levels at trough and peak, and the results should come some time next week. While I don't know my levels right now, the DHT is definitely working. My plan isn't to be running sky high DHT levels all the time, but rather to have a good T : DHT ratio and to follow the circadian rhythm as I'm doing with Test P. I started a bit high and with more constant levels as I wanted to see if it even works, what DHT levels I would have, what effects I would get and how fast. Now that I have a feel for it I'm going to change the protocol to something more sensible and see how things go. Still I'm doing this somewhat blind until I get the blood test results, and based on those tests I might do some changes, if needed. I decided to take only 0.5ml of DHT in the morning, applied to the scrotum, so 100mg/day, to follow the rhythm I'm doing with Test P. I hope this protocol suppresses my hunger and appetite less, as I think the current level of suppression is too much. Additionally I have also reintroduced HCG as I want to maximize my chances of getting my libido back. Considering I've been using HCG for over a year and a half, it's not an unknown to me, so I feel comfortable adding it to the protocol, despite trying out DHT. I've been off HCG for roughly two months until now.

Link to the DHT thread where I posted a few things when I received the DHT gel:

DHT Cream Plus Testosterone Propionate = Major Libido Boost

It's a thin oil so you will need to spread around to avoid it going to waste. I rub in as best possible. It says it's a cream, but it is not. I do the entire shaft and just wait for the tissues to get the boost. You can literally feel it. Like its buzzing? Very pleasant and you get a good chubby...

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[ziegen]

UPDATE 5:

While I was trying out the DHT gel I have also received T and DHT in raw powder to make some home-brew creams. I followed a mixing guide and figured out a bunch of things as I went through the process and now I have some T creams ready to be used. The plan was that if the DHT thing panned out, then I would eventually try out a T cream only protocol, to see if that would provide similar results, after all, it's better to use one thing than two in your protocol, right? Additionally, I think that when traveling it would be easier to bring along, especially as I filled it into convenient little tubes. As I will be traveling soon, and bringing these creams along, I will be using them for a week, so that I don't have to bring a bunch of other things. But before then I wanted to see how they work (if they even work). The cream is around 10%, meaning 100mg per 1ml, so I decided that apply 2ml (200mg) to the scrotum and do a blood test 5 hours later to see the peak. I applied only this cream, I didn't take Test P or the DHT gel.

T cream (homebrew) peak:
Total T: 1414 ng/dl (range 221-871 ng/dl)
E2: 46 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)

The results are actually much better than expected. Now I did apply the DHT cream 17 hours prior to the test, so maybe it affected total T numbers as DHT was still increased from the DHT cream therefore my body converted less T to DHT, which led to higher numbers? Anyway, it seems like the cream works and the protocol would be 2ml applied to the scrotum every morning. During my travels I'll be using this protocol for a week, so I'll see how it goes. I wonder if the symptom relief will be similar to Test P + DHT. After I'm back I'll do a blood test at trough and peak to see what my numbers are. This time I'll also check DHT levels. Afterwards I plan on returning to my Test P + DHT protocol, unless I have any additional benefits from the T cream protocol.