Test P improved TRT, libido still at 0 – what next?

[Kenp]

Forget enclomiphene if libido is important to you. It destroys it!

Yeah, I'm on 24mg ecnlo /week and can confirm libido is zero for the last 2 months. But I have PFS and my libido was zero before that too so lol

 

[ziegen]

Yeah, I'm on 24mg ecnlo /week and can confirm libido is zero for the last 2 months. But I have PFS and my libido was zero before that too so lol

I was thinking of going with enclomiphene due to how my body works, that it responds well to the circadian rhythm. It was kind of the last resort to see if that would do anything to my libido, especially as it seems like I can handle higher levels of E2 without side effects (or benefits). The idea was that enclomiphene should follow the circadian rhythm, produce a proper T : DHT ratio, keep your own system functioning and I'm not affected by higher levels of E2. I guess I thought I would be a good candidate for it, but I'm leaning towards not trying it due to potential side effects with vision and the fact that most people don't have any symptom relief on it.

The problem is that after my experimentation with DHT and T creams, if it doesn't trigger my libido, then I have no idea what else to try. I figured out that I need to follow the circadian rhythm, from the blood tests DHT is the only hormone that seems off on TRT and potentially I need to have my system working, which is why I'm also taking HCG. But other than all this, I have no idea what else to do, as nothing is obviously wrong. I also never took anything that would fuck with my libido, like Finasteride or SSRIs, so I don't know in which direction to turn.

 

[sammmy]

Libido is controlled by the nervous system. Hormones are just one input for it. If hormones do not work, you will have to try stuff that works on the nervous system, the so called "aphrodisiacs", most of which are exaggerated stories.

I would suggest Guarana powder - it is a mild stimulant and stimulates hedonistic desires. It contains many mood supporting alkaloids, not only caffeine.

 

[Kenp]

I was thinking of going with enclomiphene due to how my body works, that it responds well to the circadian rhythm. It was kind of the last resort to see if that would do anything to my libido, especially as it seems like I can handle higher levels of E2 without side effects (or benefits). The idea was that enclomiphene should follow the circadian rhythm, produce a proper T : DHT ratio, keep your own system functioning and I'm not affected by higher levels of E2. I guess I thought I would be a good candidate for it, but I'm leaning towards not trying it due to potential side effects with vision and the fact that most people don't have any symptom relief on it.

The problem is that after my experimentation with DHT and T creams, if it doesn't trigger my libido, then I have no idea what else to try. I figured out that I need to follow the circadian rhythm, from the blood tests DHT is the only hormone that seems off on TRT and potentially I need to have my system working, which is why I'm also taking HCG. But other than all this, I have no idea what else to do, as nothing is obviously wrong. I also never took anything that would fuck with my libido, like Finasteride or SSRIs, so I don't know in which direction to turn.

Have you tried PT141?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Now I did apply the DHT cream 17 hours prior to the test, so maybe it affected total T numbers as DHT was still increased from the DHT cream therefore my body converted less T to DHT, which led to higher numbers?

If DHT was going to have any effect on your total testosterone, it would be a reduction, by reducing SHBG.

 

[ziegen]

Libido is controlled by the nervous system. Hormones are just one input for it. If hormones do not work, you will have to try stuff that works on the nervous system, the so called "aphrodisiacs", most of which are exaggerated stories.

I would suggest Guarana powder - it is a mild stimulant and stimulates hedonistic desires. It contains many mood supporting alkaloids, not only caffeine.

I have tried many supplements and aphrodisiacs through the years, but it never had an effect. I mean I can try Guarana, but I doubt it's gonna be it. Do you have a recommended dose?

Have you tried PT141?

I have, I got all the standard peptide side effects, but it did nothing for my libido. I tried doses from 0.5mg to 3mg.

If DHT was going to have any effect on your total testosterone, it would be a reduction, by reducing SHBG.

Hmm I see, I thought that in the case of adding DHT to a TRT protocol the T converts to DHT less, as there is enough of it. In any case I won't pay it too much attention as long as it all looks good.

 

[sammmy]

1 teaspoon Guarana powder in a cup of water. Brew a tea or heat it in the microwave. Drink both the liquid and the powder in it. I'm not sure if heating it up into a tea is necessary (hot water extraction) - just drinking the liquid is not very effective.

The stimulating and mood lifting properties should be obvious.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Hmm I see, I thought that in the case of adding DHT to a TRT protocol the T converts to DHT less, as there is enough of it.

That would make intuitive sense, but the presence of sufficient or even excessive DHT doesn't seem to down regulate 5-alpha reductase. In at least some tissues, there is a feed-forward mechanism where DHT actually increases the expression of 5-alpha reductase.

 

[ziegen]

1 teaspoon Guarana powder in a cup of water. Brew a tea or heat it in the microwave. Drink both the liquid and the powder in it. I'm not sure if heating it up into a tea is necessary (hot water extraction) - just drinking the liquid is not very effective.

The stimulating and mood lifting properties should be obvious.

I was planning on buying some supplements in the near future, but because of your recommendations I decided to go grab them immediately. I was also reading about it on the internet and also noticed another supplement called Ginko, which supposedly also helps with libido greatly. I found both of them at the store at a cheap price, so I bought them. I've been using them now for a few days and I do notice an improved mood and energy, but no libido benefits, which is exactly what I expected. With these two, the amount of "libido boosting" supplements and foods I've tried is about 15 and none of them had worked for my libido. I have tried most of these things prior to TRT and now on TRT.

It is my belief that the reason these "aphrodisiacs" work is that they either contain vitamins and minerals, that many people are lacking, due to the modern diet, or they boost mood and energy or they relax you. Of course all these things can have a indirect effect on the libido. So people that have a libido and have trouble with the previously mentioned things, will likely feel an effect on their libido as well. However, people like me, who have the entire sexual system shut down will not feel any benefits. This is what I believe based on the research on the internet, my own experience and the experience of others who had an effect. I will keep using these two supplements for a few more days, but will then stop and only use them when I want to improve my mood and energy.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 6:

As mentioned in update 4 I did a couple of blood tests to check the peak and trough of the Test P (120mg/week) + DHT (200mg daily; split AM and PM) protocol, to see what my numbers are.

Trough:
Total T: 277 ng/dl (range 221-871 ng/dl)
E2: 34 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
DHT: 694 pg/ml (range 300-850pg/ml)

Now these numbers are weird. I was very consistent with all the applications and tests. The total T on trough is abysmal, even lower than on the 84mg/week test. I think that there was something wrong with the test, as I didn't feel bad or off any single day. This also puts into question a test from update 3 that was unexpectedly low. Maybe I didn't do anything wrong and there were no "incorrect" spots where I injected in, the test might've been wrong. Looking at E2 it's about the level where I usually have 600-700 ng/dl of Test, on the 84mg/week test E2 was at 21. Whatever the case with total T is, even considering that let's say it's around 600, the DHT at trough also isn't that high. I applied at 8 am and 5 pm, then tested next day at roughly at 9 am. I'd say it seems like the ratio of T : DHT is about 1:1, I kinda expected it to be higher.

Peak:
Total T: 2230 ng/dl (range 221-871 ng/dl)
E2: 59 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
DHT: 2240 pg/ml (range 300-850pg/ml)

To test the peak I applied the protocol at 6 am and then tested at 11 am, so 5 hours after the application. Peak values also seems a bit strange to me. I very much doubt that I'm running 2230 of Test on 120mg/week, so I'd say the test overestimated Test, it's likely at 1500 tops. However DHT here is pretty good, it also uses a better testing method (LCMS). I guess I'm satisfied with the numbers even though I expected them to be higher according to what others have posted in various threads.

I have since started applying 0.5ml (100mg) of the DHT gel in the morning. Based on the results I think I'll bump the dose to 0.75mg (150mg). With the morning only applications I still seem to retain the good mood, but the hunger and appetite suppression is lesser, which is good. I also noticed a bit of extra beard growth, but that's something that can be truly judged in several months. I also don't see any hair loss for now, but again, to be judged in the future. So far I have not experienced any sexual benefits. Any thoughts on all this?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

UPDATE 6:

As mentioned in update 4 I did a couple of blood tests to check the peak and trough of the Test P (120mg/week) + DHT (200mg daily; split AM and PM) protocol, to see what my numbers are.

Trough:
Total T: 277 ng/dl (range 221-871 ng/dl)
E2: 34 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
DHT: 694 pg/ml (range 300-850pg/ml)

Now these numbers are weird. I was very consistent with all the applications and tests. The total T on trough is abysmal, even lower than on the 84mg/week test. I think that there was something wrong with the test, as I didn't feel bad or off any single day. This also puts into question a test from update 3 that was unexpectedly low. Maybe I didn't do anything wrong and there were no "incorrect" spots where I injected in, the test might've been wrong. Looking at E2 it's about the level where I usually have 600-700 ng/dl of Test, on the 84mg/week test E2 was at 21. Whatever the case with total T is, even considering that let's say it's around 600, the DHT at trough also isn't that high. I applied at 8 am and 5 pm, then tested next day at roughly at 9 am. I'd say it seems like the ratio of T : DHT is about 1:1, I kinda expected it to be higher.

Peak:
Total T: 2230 ng/dl (range 221-871 ng/dl)
E2: 59 ng/L (range 11-44 ng/L)
DHT: 2240 pg/ml (range 300-850pg/ml)

To test the peak I applied the protocol at 6 am and then tested at 11 am, so 5 hours after the application. Peak values also seems a bit strange to me. I very much doubt that I'm running 2230 of Test on 120mg/week, so I'd say the test overestimated Test, it's likely at 1500 tops. However DHT here is pretty good, it also uses a better testing method (LCMS). I guess I'm satisfied with the numbers even though I expected them to be higher according to what others have posted in various threads.

I have since started applying 0.5ml (100mg) of the DHT gel in the morning. Based on the results I think I'll bump the dose to 0.75mg (150mg). With the morning only applications I still seem to retain the good mood, but the hunger and appetite suppression is lesser, which is good. I also noticed a bit of extra beard growth, but that's something that can be truly judged in several months. I also don't see any hair loss for now, but again, to be judged in the future. So far I have not experienced any sexual benefits. Any thoughts on all this?

Where and how deeply are you injecting the test prop, and what is the carrier oil?

 

[ziegen]

Where and how deeply are you injecting the test prop, and what is the carrier oil?

I inject SubQ and usually pinch the site to raise it, put the needle in and then release to ensure that it's deep enough in the fat and not in the muscle. Of course the needle usually gets pushed out a bit during the process, yet it still in deep enough. I'd say the depth is about 7-9mm, however I'm pretty lean so any more than that and I will hit the muscle on most sites. The carrier oil is sesame. On each side I have 2-3 locations on ventroglutes, 2 location on the belly and 1 location on the love handles. I always had good blood test results with Test E and I don't feel bad/off on any injection site, I always feel good. I have also injected 6 times in a row on the belly, where I definitely hit the fat and nothing else, and there was also no drop off in symptom relief.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I inject SubQ and usually pinch the site to raise it, put the needle in and then release to ensure that it's deep enough in the fat and not in the muscle. Of course the needle usually gets pushed out a bit during the process, yet it still in deep enough. I'd say the depth is about 7-9mm, however I'm pretty lean so any more than that and I will hit the muscle on most sites. The carrier oil is sesame. On each side I have 2-3 locations on ventroglutes, 2 location on the belly and 1 location on the love handles. I always had good blood test results with Test E and I don't feel bad/off on any injection site, I always feel good. I have also injected 6 times in a row on the belly, where I definitely hit the fat and nothing else, and there was also no drop off in symptom relief.

Ok. You have some crazy inexplicable labs then, which look like your testosterone has roughly a 6 hour half-life, which should be impossible for test prop injected SC in thick sesame oil (I would expect closer to 24 hr half-life in this scenario).

 

[ziegen]

Ok. You have some crazy inexplicable labs then, which look like your testosterone has roughly a 6 hour half-life, which should be impossible for test prop injected SC in thick sesame oil (I would expect closer to 24 hr half-life in this scenario).

I think there is a problem with the tests they run. Previously they sent all the blood tests samples for Testosterone tests to another country, because the lab there was bigger and there wasn't enough demand here for Testosterone testing. However in the last 6 months or so, they started doing the Testosterone tests here as well, but I had good and expected results most of the time regardless. It just seems like sometimes the tests completely fuck up and give out such odd results. I don't think anything is wrong with the Testosterone itself, I think the tests are wrong sometimes.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I think there is a problem with the tests they run. Previously they sent all the blood tests samples for Testosterone tests to another country, because the lab there was bigger and there wasn't enough demand here for Testosterone testing. However in the last 6 months or so, they started doing the Testosterone tests here as well, but I had good and expected results most of the time regardless. It just seems like sometimes the tests completely fuck up and give out such odd results. I don't think anything is wrong with the Testosterone itself, I think the tests are wrong sometimes.

Ignore the labs then and make protocol adjustments based on how you feel. That's what we all end up doing anyway - the numbers are only there to satisfy our curiosity.

 

[ziegen]

Ignore the labs then and make protocol adjustments based on how you feel. That's what we all end up doing anyway - the numbers are only there to satisfy our curiosity.

Yeah I'll do that. I mean most things still seem accurate, but for whatever reason total T misses sometimes. In the end I use the labs to get a feel on where I stand and how things look like to some degree. Of course if I feel good I won't go adjusting my protocol just because the labs say so, when it has now been shown that it's sometimes inaccurate.

 

[Seagal]

I was planning on buying some supplements in the near future, but because of your recommendations I decided to go grab them immediately. I was also reading about it on the internet and also noticed another supplement called Ginko, which supposedly also helps with libido greatly. I found both of them at the store at a cheap price, so I bought them. I've been using them now for a few days and I do notice an improved mood and energy, but no libido benefits, which is exactly what I expected. With these two, the amount of "libido boosting" supplements and foods I've tried is about 15 and none of them had worked for my libido. I have tried most of these things prior to TRT and now on TRT.

It is my belief that the reason these "aphrodisiacs" work is that they either contain vitamins and minerals, that many people are lacking, due to the modern diet, or they boost mood and energy or they relax you. Of course all these things can have a indirect effect on the libido. So people that have a libido and have trouble with the previously mentioned things, will likely feel an effect on their libido as well. However, people like me, who have the entire sexual system shut down will not feel any benefits. This is what I believe based on the research on the internet, my own experience and the experience of others who had an effect. I will keep using these two supplements for a few more days, but will then stop and only use them when I want to improve my mood and energy.

Something that is more specific and maybe helps to pinpoint the 'root cause' of the problem.

I think you don't have anhedonia etc thus not a possibly broader dopamine problem. ... Just wanted to share that info in case you didn't know.

 

[ziegen]

Something that is more specific and maybe helps to pinpoint the 'root cause' of the problem.

I think you don't have anhedonia etc thus not a possibly broader dopamine problem. ... Just wanted to share that info in case you didn't know.

I have, I got all the standard peptide side effects, but it did nothing for my libido. I tried doses from 0.5mg to 3mg.

I mentioned above, and a couple of times in this thread, that I tried PT-141. I definitely don't have anhedonia and while I mentioned before that maybe my issues are dopamine related I no longer think so. On Test P + DHT I now feel really good, motivated and enjoy doing various things, yet libido is still dead.

At this point I don't think my libido issues are related to lifestyle, dopamine or mental health. I already tried and tested everything prior to TRT and low T was the only thing that actually looked like the root cause. In the honeymoon phase of TRT I had similar symptom relief that I have now, yet I still had no libido/arousal then, which is something that worried me then and now. I felt an increased interest in women though. Quite honestly I have no idea what could be wrong or what would actually make sense in trying. I'm starting to believe that I have something similar to PSSD or PFS despite never taking these drugs or anything similar.

 

[Kenp]

I mentioned above a couple of times in this thread that I tried PT-141. I definitely don't have anhedonia and while I mentioned before that maybe my issues are dopamine related I no longer think so. On Test P + DHT I now feel really good, motivated and enjoy doing various things, yet libido is still dead.

At this point I don't think my libido issues are related to lifestyle, dopamine or mental health. I already tried and tested everything prior to TRT and low T was the only thing that actually looked like the root cause. In the honeymoon phase of TRT I had similar symptom relief that I have now, yet I still had no libido/arousal then, which is something that worried me then and now. I felt a increased interest in women though. Quite honestly I have no idea what could be wrong or what would actually make sense in trying. I'm starting to believe that I have something similar to PSSD or PFS despite never taking these drugs or anything similar.

Yeah really, really sounds like PFS. I completely understand what you mean. I feel fine for most part too but libido is zero. Coulde be something epigenetically, that's whaytmany now think and studies point in that direction too. But we have treatments to fix it, have you seen this PFS recovery?

So what he did was high dose VPA (sodium valproate) to tackle the epigenetic problem, it's an HDACI, combined with DHB for around 3 months. Then followed with PEA (raises allopregnenalone) and high dose HCG for a month or two.

Another guy called Jasper who had PFS got cured too that way.

You can get PFS like syndrome from a lot of things, seen people get it from SSRI's, accutane, AI's, supplements and herbs,...

 

[Seagal]

I mentioned above, and a couple of times in this thread, that I tried PT-141. I definitely don't have anhedonia and while I mentioned before that maybe my issues are dopamine related I no longer think so. On Test P + DHT I now feel really good, motivated and enjoy doing various things, yet libido is still dead.

At this point I don't think my libido issues are related to lifestyle, dopamine or mental health. I already tried and tested everything prior to TRT and low T was the only thing that actually looked like the root cause. In the honeymoon phase of TRT I had similar symptom relief that I have now, yet I still had no libido/arousal then, which is something that worried me then and now. I felt a increased interest in women though. Quite honestly I have no idea what could be wrong or what would actually make sense in trying. I'm starting to believe that I have something similar to PSSD or PFS despite never taking these drugs or anything similar.

Followed your posts but didn't recall that. Can imagine it must be annoying ppl suggesting things that you already checked.