Kev101
Member
I like it man, makes sense. I like this low dose stuff, keep all the gains from the past and don't have to worry about when I'll die.
Oxandrolone and Nandrolone (common availability)
Loki
Member
Of all my protocols the best I have felt was on the cream. It was compounded at 175mg strength and I would apply it to my inner thighs after my morning shower and right before bed... Everything worked fine, I was a borderline sex offender and the numbers stayed in range. The Doctor I went to retired and I have been on several other protocols after that. I think I don't push it because I see better results in the gym with my shots but I still have 100mg cream I do once daily on the scrotum. Seems to be a good trade-off...
madman
Super Moderator
Nobody is gaining any significant amount of muscle tissue (actin/myosin) using therapeutic trt doses let alone maintaining any significant amount of muscle gained from previous steroid abuse!
If anything when it comes to test 300-600 mg/week would be the dose where one would start to really reap the gains in size/strength and even then doses on the higher end would give the most bang for the buck.
Even when using ND a minimum of 200 mg/week would be needed to really start to reap the anabolic properties let alone 400-600 mg week is where it would really start to shine.
Most of these guys on trt claiming to gain let alone maintain any significant amount of pure muscle tissue are the ones that are blasting/cruising yet they go on to tell you that they are just on higher-end trt doses.....LMFAO.
We have a few of them on here lurking now and then.
Most men on trt are injecting 100-200 mg/week and many never venture to the higher end let alone many would never need such a dose (200 mg/week) to achieve a healthy FT level.
Regardless as you very well know even when following a proper diet/training protocol genetics will have the final say.
Sure someone with good genetics that follows a proper diet/training protocol that is on the higher end trt dose 200 mg/week can make good gains but even then most would never pack on a significant amount of muscle tissue (actin/myosin) on such dose.....maybe if you are talking about pure mass (actin/myosin + extra-cellular water (water retention/bloat/puffiness) + intracellular water (due to increased glycogen storage)!
Take away all that water weight and the amount of pure muscle tissue you are left with is far from significant.
No one is blowing up with muscle on trt let alone 100-150 mg/week ND.....LMFAO.
200 mg T + 200 mg ND.....now we are getting somewhere.....unfortunately, this would not be considered trt/hrt.
The therapeutic dose of ND for treating joint/bone pain is 50-100 mg/week some may go slightly higher but 200 mg/week would never be needed.
Kev101
Member
I know what you mean, I was assuming the guys I was talking to used to be on "bodybuilder" type doses. For the random skinny guy who asks me how to get jacked. I would never think TRT alone. I understand they have proven lean tissue growth comes at certain doses. Although, if you were on the cutting edge of HRT, everything they offered, like all 4 compounds (Oxandrolone, Test, Nan and GHRPs/secretagauges), for let's say 3-5 years and ate and trained perfectly. I bet you could build a body that would compete with higher dosing AAS users.
I was thinking along the lines of this study that always pops up,"Anabolic steroids produce a permanent increase in users' capacity for muscle development. In keeping with this, studies show that mice given testosterone acquire new myonuclei that persist long after the steroid use ends."
I can't speak for anyone else but for me, when I read that study and hear guys reciting it on YouTube I knew it was true. I can go from not working out and getting all the way down to 200 lbs (I'm 6'2) so that's super skinny for me. Not filling out Tshirts and having round muscle bellies. As soon as I add the TRT test 200-280 mg/week I get 80% back, if not more.
So I was mainly speaking to the guys who used to hold a lot of size. I think adding small amounts of these AAS is all we need to maintain size without staying on the crazy doses past our 30's.
I was thinking along the lines of this study that always pops up,"Anabolic steroids produce a permanent increase in users' capacity for muscle development. In keeping with this, studies show that mice given testosterone acquire new myonuclei that persist long after the steroid use ends."
I can't speak for anyone else but for me, when I read that study and hear guys reciting it on YouTube I knew it was true. I can go from not working out and getting all the way down to 200 lbs (I'm 6'2) so that's super skinny for me. Not filling out Tshirts and having round muscle bellies. As soon as I add the TRT test 200-280 mg/week I get 80% back, if not more.
So I was mainly speaking to the guys who used to hold a lot of size. I think adding small amounts of these AAS is all we need to maintain size without staying on the crazy doses past our 30's.
DixieWrecked
Well-Known Member
I may ask about that. Libido still isn't exactly how I want it even on the lower dose shots.
Kev101
Member
I don't know how I missed this, laughing my tits off.
Bro my wife calls me a homo when I don't hit it often enough, she's super hot too.
I used to be super sensitive to test shots, like how you explain but now no matter what I do I just stay average in terms of aggression. It's never high or low, just nothing too exciting. I wish I had that crazy caveman drive that I had in my 20's sometimes.
madman
Super Moderator
Although, if you were on the cutting edge of HRT, everything they offered, like all 4 compounds (Oxandrolone, Test, Nan and GHRPs/secretagauges), for let's say 3-5 years and ate and trained perfectly. I bet you could build a body that would compete with higher dosing AAS users.
Bro science!
Therapeutic dose of T 100-200 mg/week, ND 50-100 mg/week (bone/joint pain).....lets even up this to 150 mg and OX 15-25 mg/week (would not be used indefinitely as although mild it is still c-17 alpha-alkylated) topped off with GHRPs/secretagogues.
No f***ing way the above so called cutting edge hrt protocol would build the amount of muscle let alone strength that one would obtain when abusing high dosed testosterone/AAS.....far fetched, to say the least!
Look like you already have one bro-science follower LOL!
Loki
Member
In many cases, the Bro science is ahead of your local doctor. I think Nelson posted a study that showed 20MG a day of Oxandrolone with Low levels of T had the same anabolic effect of 600MG a week of T. That along with the others mentioned above seems like it would make a significant impact. Also, I believed the threshold of T to start impacting lean body mass is 120 or 125mg a week. Take these little advantages and get as much leverage as possible out of them.
Just like a guy pumping 1,000mg a week of test and let's say his only physical activity is strapping a mask on his chubby face. Well, he won't see much of a benefit will he...
No matter what we HAVE to put the work in...
DixieWrecked
Well-Known Member
My gym gains have been awesome on TRT. With ND, even better. I am definetely on a different level with and without it. Thats with just 200mg of anabolics a week. MAybe I'm a good responder. Pretty sure there are guys in there on tons of gear that look like regular joes.
Kev101
Member
Right, that's my experience as well. The people and genetics make it impossible to place a 1 study fits all statement and call it accruate.
I hired this "kid" (recent college grad) a few yrs ago and he was jacked, as soon as I had a chance we talked lifting and what he was on. He didn't even understand what I was talking about. We became friends and I ended up showing him how to do a shot in the arm, he nearly passed out haha. This guy would have you all saying 100% juice but nope! And the local UGL dealer back home, he looks absolutely terrible man and is on everything. Tren, clean, Abombs, you name it. His body is a disaster.
You have good genetics and respond well to AAS, get a little bit of 4 different compounds in your system..3 of which you can stay on 24/7. Boom, magazine qualified stud. Average weiner but still.
Studies are fun to read but many times they just aren't accurate in the real world. I read them for baseline knowledge but first hand experience is the only way. Many are flawed too, they don't accout for particular diets, long periods of time and dexascans aren't accurate.
I hired this "kid" (recent college grad) a few yrs ago and he was jacked, as soon as I had a chance we talked lifting and what he was on. He didn't even understand what I was talking about. We became friends and I ended up showing him how to do a shot in the arm, he nearly passed out haha. This guy would have you all saying 100% juice but nope! And the local UGL dealer back home, he looks absolutely terrible man and is on everything. Tren, clean, Abombs, you name it. His body is a disaster.
You have good genetics and respond well to AAS, get a little bit of 4 different compounds in your system..3 of which you can stay on 24/7. Boom, magazine qualified stud. Average weiner but still.
Studies are fun to read but many times they just aren't accurate in the real world. I read them for baseline knowledge but first hand experience is the only way. Many are flawed too, they don't accout for particular diets, long periods of time and dexascans aren't accurate.
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madman
Super Moderator
The keyword here is significant.
No one is gaining a significant amount of muscle tissue (actin/myosin) on 20 mg/day OX let alone is in no way comparable to the gains one would make when using the 600 mg/week test.....period!
No one is packing any significant amount of pure muscle tissue on a therapeutic dose of T 100-200 mg/week.
Gains would be average at best for most.
Dry gains minus the extra-cellular water weight (bloat/puffiness) and intra-cellular water weight (increased glycogen storage) would be average at best.
Sure there are some with good genetics who may respond well when taking 200 mg/week but again even then it is in no way comparable to gains in muscle/strength that one would obtain from steroid doses 300-600 mg/week.
Anyone that using a gram of test/week let alone other compounds in absurd doses that do not compete is a f***ing idiot!
Regardless of the compound used there is a point in dose where any further beneficial effects will be outweighed by side-effects let alone gains in muscle/strength.
Who stated no one had to put in the work?
Keep in mind that even though one needs to put in the work (training/diet/rest) when using/abusing testosterone/AAS they have a huge anabolic advantage over a natty.
Much easier to build muscle/gain strength let alone recover better and unfortunately one could still be lax with their training/diet and still make some progress.
Ones genetics/diet/training is key but let it be clear no one and I mean no one can achieve that fake jacked-up look achieved from use/abuse testosterone/AAS.
Sure there are some natty outliers that look jacked but they are far and few!
Muscles will always be bigger/harder/fuller/stronger when on gear!
madman
Super Moderator
We talking mass gains (muscle/water/adipose)?
Post up pics before and after as one will easily be able to get an idea of how much of your awesome gains are solid!
Loki
Member
My point on putting in the work is I have seen guys juicing up and not put in the work and look like crap. Maybe crap dressed up a bit but still crap. Also, you will notice I called TRT a little advantage. Take that and leverage to start working harder, motivation to eat better, get better rest, and so on... I don't think anybody is disputing that the juice monkeys have a far greater potential to get jacked up. I personally have never taken anything that wasn't prescribed to me by a doctor. In a gym, however, those guys won't even work out next to me. If they knew my age they would really feel inadequate.
I was a big guy before TRT from my hard work, But I am certainly bigger and stronger now...
I was a big guy before TRT from my hard work, But I am certainly bigger and stronger now...
Loki
Member
I have been in the gym since I was 13 and never taken a break outside of a week. I have been tempted but I don't want to do anything that isn't sustainable. It would be like that guy you meet that always talks about how strong he used to be or how big he was. You would actually be that guy and it would suck. I am also a massive chicken when it comes to harming myself. I haven't even attempted to smoke a cigarette or anything for that matter.
madman
Super Moderator
Take that and leverage to start working harder, motivation to eat better, get better rest, and so on...
True but again even then my point was that no one is gaining a significant amount of muscle tissue (actin/myosin) using a therapeutic dose of T let alone ND.
I don't think anybody is disputing that the juice monkeys have a far greater potential to get jacked up.
Cycling, blasting/cruising using high doses of T 300-600 mg/week or ND 200-600 mg/week will have a far greater advantage when it comes to gains in muscle/strength than one using therapeutic doses.
I was a big guy before TRT from my hard work, But I am certainly bigger and stronger now...
Of course, you put in the work (training/diet/rest) let alone had the advantage of a bigger frame/build pre-trt and you have reaped the benefits of responding well to trt as you were blessed with good genetics if you truly have never used any doses other than therapeutic.
I am a frequent nandrolone user and cycle three months on two months off and I’ve done that three or four times now. I definitely feel the benefit both in terms of joint relief but also in some mild gains– I do believe that even at a low dose the nandrolone has a mild anabolic effect, plus the joint relief allows me to push heavier weights so it’s compounding the effect.
I spoke to a couple of clinics in Florida recently about oxandrolone and all of them were very ready to prescribe it for me at 50 mg per day. To put things in perspective, I did some cycles back in the 80s and we would start with a 2.5 mg tab and work our way up to about 20 mg per day of that and make tremendous gains so I couldn’t even freaking imagine what 50 mg could do. When I requested 25 mg the woman at the clinic told me that she runs 25 mg per day of oxandrolone and I should use the higher dose
.
I am just very thankful that the compounds are now legally prescribed and there are progressive doctors who recognize the benefits. I realize that it may be getting a little out of hand but I think in the long run old age muscle wasting as well as some of the joint problems really start to add up, and if you use them moderately, they could help with this. Also, for what it’s worth, I’ve always had the best blood panels ever when I was on the Nandrolone- it lowered my liver and kidney enzymes
I spoke to a couple of clinics in Florida recently about oxandrolone and all of them were very ready to prescribe it for me at 50 mg per day. To put things in perspective, I did some cycles back in the 80s and we would start with a 2.5 mg tab and work our way up to about 20 mg per day of that and make tremendous gains so I couldn’t even freaking imagine what 50 mg could do. When I requested 25 mg the woman at the clinic told me that she runs 25 mg per day of oxandrolone and I should use the higher dose
.I am just very thankful that the compounds are now legally prescribed and there are progressive doctors who recognize the benefits. I realize that it may be getting a little out of hand but I think in the long run old age muscle wasting as well as some of the joint problems really start to add up, and if you use them moderately, they could help with this. Also, for what it’s worth, I’ve always had the best blood panels ever when I was on the Nandrolone- it lowered my liver and kidney enzymes
Kev101
Member
When I was a 20-something all the kids did Oxandrolone at 100mg. So when I heard 50mg is what they give out @ clinics, it didn't raise any flags I figured that was normal for a "bodybuilder" but not a theraputic dose!
It's funny we can justify 50mg, sign me up bro, I'm on the gainz train.
So far 200 test / 80 nandrone and Ipamorelin 5 on /off has drastically improved my body. I took 9 months off and lost almost everything, 50 lbs. I think #1 the UGL suff that got me big is prob under-dosed and I got huge on much less than I thought and #2 "muscle memory" is fantastic.
To be able to hold this much size, safely on hardly anything is remarkable. I thought you had to cycle and take a bunch and eventually you just quit and look like Dave Palumbo. I'm shocked more pros don't maintain a jacked physique after they are done being 300lbs. If I can do it, surely anyone can.
PS I know Jay Cutler did, he's doing well. I think Denis Wolf gave up too
It's funny we can justify 50mg, sign me up bro, I'm on the gainz train.
So far 200 test / 80 nandrone and Ipamorelin 5 on /off has drastically improved my body. I took 9 months off and lost almost everything, 50 lbs. I think #1 the UGL suff that got me big is prob under-dosed and I got huge on much less than I thought and #2 "muscle memory" is fantastic.
To be able to hold this much size, safely on hardly anything is remarkable. I thought you had to cycle and take a bunch and eventually you just quit and look like Dave Palumbo. I'm shocked more pros don't maintain a jacked physique after they are done being 300lbs. If I can do it, surely anyone can.
PS I know Jay Cutler did, he's doing well. I think Denis Wolf gave up too
Been doing a bunch of research on oxandrolone recently. I wanted to try a little experiment with it to see if I could use a very low dose as a form of mild ai.
Seems like it’s one of the most faked anabolics out there. So good chance most people’s experiences with it weren’t even with real Oxandrolone. I’ve heard quite a few guys say that real Anavar used to come in 2.5mg doses for a reason. They said it was very effective, even at low doses. A lot of them reiterated what u mentioned. Men were seeing amazing results on as little as 20mg/ day of real anavar, according to quite a few guys that used it before they stopped making it.
Is original anavar different at all compared to compounded oxandrolone, or are they 100% identical in every way?
Oh, and it seems like oxandrolone/ anavar is one of those compounds that high doses of it doesn’t result in much more results. All the guys I heard talk about their experiences with it say that it’s very effective at low doses, and higher doses will obv give u more results, but not in a linear fashion, and definitely not worth the side effects and expense to justify very slight improvements/ benefits over lower dosing
Seems like it’s one of the most faked anabolics out there. So good chance most people’s experiences with it weren’t even with real Oxandrolone. I’ve heard quite a few guys say that real Anavar used to come in 2.5mg doses for a reason. They said it was very effective, even at low doses. A lot of them reiterated what u mentioned. Men were seeing amazing results on as little as 20mg/ day of real anavar, according to quite a few guys that used it before they stopped making it.
Is original anavar different at all compared to compounded oxandrolone, or are they 100% identical in every way?
Oh, and it seems like oxandrolone/ anavar is one of those compounds that high doses of it doesn’t result in much more results. All the guys I heard talk about their experiences with it say that it’s very effective at low doses, and higher doses will obv give u more results, but not in a linear fashion, and definitely not worth the side effects and expense to justify very slight improvements/ benefits over lower dosing
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