Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[Diablo666]

Yeah very true. I remember taking these antidepressants called SSRI and i got extreme panic attacks where i literally felt like i was dying and i told my doctor about them he had never heard of anyone reacting like that.

I know there are people who claim they feel nothing particular from TRT whereas there are people who feel amazing on the stuff.

Take for example libido. My libido is higher with crashed e2 than it is with high e2. It's even higher with low e2 than when im on a normal level.

I go completely sex maniac mad when im to low on e2. Then there are those who can't even get an erection from going to low.


It's wierd how we are affected so differently tbh. But just as with medicine, different ethnical races even respons to medicines differently. Not sure what conclusion to draw from this but.

Yeah we are unique.

Hey Raider, are you low SHBG by any chance? - I am low SHBG and have the same symptoms, libido better with low E2 almost crashed, feel like shit going from low E2 to high E2 without hitting sweet spot.

 

[MIP1950]

What are your current symptoms at the moment?

Mine are:

- Low libido - although not non existent.
- Low drive
- Lack of the ability to enjoy the things that I used to
- dont really feel as connected to others as I used to
- Feeling of agitation an "mental pain" after a bigger T shot

I have some of those symptoms and not on an AI and yes, @ggenovez is the OP who is on 3.5 mg, weekly, anastrozole, 210 mg of test, per week, who only resolved similar symptoms by getting his E2 to 5.

 

[MIP1950]

You didn't crash your E2 like we did. I was at zero. I've probably gone as low as 9 before and recovered fine within 3 days. In fact I used to kind of like low E2 because it made me extremely dry and aggressive, never any ED or anxiety. Even when I was <5pg I could still get my **** hard and now I can't and my E2 is probably high 20's. Now, no matter how much arimidex I take I cannot get "dry" like i used to. I've demonstrated this TWICE. Used the same testosterone dose I used to while taking same amount of arimidex and had no response in physical terms. I've brought my estrogen to 17, and 18 and was still extremely watery.

You need need to stop bringing up women's breast cancer forums unless you bring blood work with it. If these women E2 readings are <3 pg/ml we can talk.

You are doing a lot of denying here. I have physical symptoms that I have never had in my 24 years of life, with no other medical problems, that all occurred during and after my E2 crashes. I don't think that's coincidence. I'm sure you know how exactly you're supposed to feel and I know for damn sure how I'm supposed to feel.

Also, we know what finasteride and SP do to DHT. We also know what arimidex does to E2 in non TRT men. Sounds bizzare, and let me repeat once more, I too would not believe this if it didn't happen to me - I used arimidex for 3.5 years with no prob, I loved the stuff. but there's some mechanism that leads to silencing of genes when using inhibitors.

1.5 weeks ago, took horny goat weed, loss erections for 4 days. looked up iicarin - potent phytoestrogen.

this past weekend, drank for the first time in awhile on friday and woke up the next morning with more low E2 symptoms. lasted for 3 days. monday night, i got an occipital migraine. only had 2 prior to this in my entire life, which were both caused by my first E2 crashes. I would stop the arimidex, within 3-5 days, get a migraine with vision loss, wake up the next morning feeling 80% normal including loss of the water bloat.

So, I got excited monday night when I had the migraine, thought I was going back to normal but I woke up feeling like I have for the past two months - just dry skin, water retention, flat mood, flat muscles, etc.

Now main difference from now and 2 weeks ago less libido, less firm erections, less muscle fullness (not that I had much to begin with because of this), and even worse workouts.

Edit: By the way, I've been measuring my urine output over the night. Usually urinate 1L (1000mLs) every night, regardless if I stop drinking water way before I go to sleep. This never used to happen to me, if I didn't drink water, I wouldn't urinate and my urine would be very dark yellow in the morning. Now it's always the same diluted yellow color.

Horny Goatweed has a long history in Traditional Chinese Medicine. It's considered to be the natural equivalent of a PDE-5 inhibitor. In modern times, the best is standardized to 50%. Even if it has estrogenic properties, I don't believe it would negate its pro-erectile properties.

Alcohol, as you know, increases estrogen. Hops in beer are highly estrogenic. Maybe saturating your body with estradiol to overcome what might be some kind of resistance, as long as you're taking testosterone along with it. If your doctor won't prescribe, you can purchase it from an online pharmacy.

 

[MIP1950]

Beware of this product https://www.amazon.com/Life-Flo-DHE...TF8&qid=1511286492&sr=8-3&keywords=dhea+cream
Me and friend of mine crashed our estrogen using it (we actually used it to keep our estrogen higher since dhea should raise estrogen levels) and going through total hell.. I completely lost my personality again and just feeling like I am dying most of the day. Shit sucks dude I couldn't expect to crash my estrogen using DHEA. We stopped using it 4 months ago or so but symptoms only getting worse

Have you tried estradiol tablets? DHEA, as a neurosteroid, might not be the best way to increase E2. Everytime I've tried it(many, many times) I get depressed and irritable.

 

[JA Battle]

Have you tried estradiol tablets? DHEA, as a neurosteroid, might not be the best way to increase E2. Everytime I've tried it(many, many times) I get depressed and irritable.

Have you tried taking it with progesterone and or in a low dose (like a 5mg cut in half)? Both progesterone and dhea are synthesized from pregnenolone.

 

[glob]

We know what the first study says. This is generally true for all hormones. You deprive the receptors, they up-regulate and become more sensitive to their respective ligand.

I noticed this hypersensitivity when I would stop my AI when I first began crashing E2. I would get high estrogen symptoms extremely quick (after being in a "crappy" sweet spot for 1-3 days, not like my old sweet spots where I felt extremely dry hard and aggressive). But, I'm sure my E2 was still quite low. I would take .25mg arimidex, and crash again. Couldn't figure it out for months. Too late now.

May i ask how are you now? have you solved the low e2 situation?

 

[nurselyfe]

May i ask how are you now? have you solved the low e2 situation?

still in the same situation. only has got worse. blood work is flawless.

 

[JA Battle]

Has anyone used an exogenous estradiol?

Topical, oral or injectable?

In detail what did it do for you?

 

[JustPanicNoDisco]

still in the same situation. only has got worse. blood work is flawless.

Are you still on TRT and running the same protocol?

I'd enjoy talking theory, if you're interested, as I'm in the same boat and you seem quite knowledgeable about medicine.

I'm at a crossroads, where I have no idea whether I should stay on TRT or risk attempting a PCT protocol. I'm very sensitive to hormonal fluctuations, especially from substances that inhibit aromatase, like Cialis, so I imagine antagonizing estrogen both centrally and peripherally with clomiphene or tamoxifen could end extremely poorly. That said, anecdotally, it appears people's bodies are less likely to find homeostasis again when running exogenous hormones.

I, too, believe that there are epigenetic changes that have occurred. Methylation is an active process, though -- a process very necessary to human life. I don't know why we'd get "stuck" with gene silencing; it "should" reverse eventually as the body "recognizes" low e2 symptoms in the presence of adequate amounts of the ligand.

Is it possible exogenous hormones delay / prevent demethylation processes from occurring? Normally, the HPTA governs hormonal production, and perhaps by dictating our body's hormone levels, the body is not able to adjust its levels accordingly in order to correct the receptor expression issues.

 

[Lowe2guy]

still in the same situation. only has got worse. blood work is flawless.

Hey man figure anything out yet? Im literally a mirror image of you down to a T man. I dont want to keep living like this.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Hey man figure anything out yet? Im literally a mirror image of you down to a T man. I dont want to keep living like this.

Between you and @nurselyfe and @Chroniclowe or anyone else struggling in here...
I just switched to a lower daily dose of test, and might be having low e2 again. But, I wanted to ask, do y'all get like electric shocks type of feeling in your legs after walking a mile or 2? It's like tiny little shocks all over my leg muscles top to bottom, and it lasted maybe 10 minutes. I haven't worked out legs in a while so I can't say if it happens with that. Of course, anxiety, brain fog, depression, but this symptom is new to me and I don't recall it, but it's been years since my e2 was verified low (like <15 ultra-sensitive). I can't get labs again for a while but went from 7mg daily to 4mg daily and maybe overshot (or undershot?) It...

 

[Lowe2guy]

Between you and @nurselyfe and @Chroniclowe or anyone else struggling in here...
I just switched to a lower daily dose of test, and might be having low e2 again. But, I wanted to ask, do y'all get like electric shocks type of feeling in your legs after walking a mile or 2? It's like tiny little shocks all over my leg muscles top to bottom, and it lasted maybe 10 minutes. I haven't worked out legs in a while so I can't say if it happens with that. Of course, anxiety, brain fog, depression, but this symptom is new to me and I don't recall it, but it's been years since my e2 was verified low (like <15 ultra-sensitive). I can't get labs again for a while but went from 7mg daily to 4mg daily and maybe overshot (or undershot?) It..

I’ve been having those electric shock feelings but not in my legs rather in my arms and neck. Funny thing is my estrogen on paper is normal even on the high end but I feel every symptom of low e2. I’m experiencing every negative side effect including hairloss which I was told “doesnt look like MPB” as its diffuse and all over my head.

Something really odd is I made an attempt to stop this Hairloss with finasteride because I value my hair so much and what can I possibly lose as I feel so shitty already, I used it for a month and about 3 weeks in holy crap did I ever feel GREAT! By far the best I’ve ever felt,all low e2 symptoms were gone. 0 bloating, my previously painful joints (knees,back,shoulders,elbows) no longer hurt at all, pumps in the gym were skin tearing again, strength shot up, libido was insane felt like a crazed sex freak lol my wife can attest to that, morning wood returned and I had the most positive/confident mood Ive had in a long time.

Unfortunately I quit finasteride because a week later my hair started flying off my head at an alarming rate. Same rate as when I crashed my e2 for the last time which I cant seem to recover from. Im at a loss for words and cant even theorize why this occured… I’m completely clueless. Upon cessation of finasteride my symptoms gradually returned (probably when DHT built up again) but who knows.

Im at my witts end with this shit tbh, I dont know what to do. Since using finasteride i’ve tried everything from raising my trt dose which makes me feel even worse to lowering my trt dose which makes my libido a tad bit better but my joints hurt even more. Im tempted to just take finasteride again to get relief from these symptoms but I value my hair (whats left of it) and the thought that an anti androgen is making me feel that way is kind of scary when its supposed to do the exact opposite.

Anyone have any ideas?

 

[bixt]

Anyone have any ideas?

Your DHT is overriding your E2, as far as effects go.

Fin -> less dht -> less antagonising E2 -> E2 can do its job and you feel great


The following has been known to work for me to instantly fix low E2 symptoms (I experiment A LOT on myself, as do tons of bodybuilders in other forums)

1. Pop 2 dbols
2. A small amount (any amount) of MENT

These 2 compounds supposedly convert to methyl estradiol, a super potent estradiol with a long half life.

Im not saying take these things and you are good to go forever. What you could do is experiment with them, and should they work, you now have more clues to help you in your pursuit to find the reason. Same as you did with the Fin.

 

[JmarkH]

I’ve been having those electric shock feelings but not in my legs rather in my arms and neck. Funny thing is my estrogen on paper is normal even on the high end but I feel every symptom of low e2. I’m experiencing every negative side effect including hairloss which I was told “doesnt look like MPB” as its diffuse and all over my head.

This isn't even a SWAG, just a thought. Have you checked your potassium? Both high and low potassium can produce similar effects and both are dangerous conditions.

 

[Lowe2guy]

Your DHT is overriding your E2, as far as effects go.

Fin -> less dht -> less antagonising E2 -> E2 can do its job and you feel great

This seems to be the case but I dont see how its possible. The body finds homeostasis correct? Knowing that why would I overproduce DHT relative to estrogen unless theres something wrong with my estrogen receptors and they just dont respond but I clearly have enough estrogen on paper. Maybe I have overactive 5AR is this even a thing? I might try some dbol or try the Fin out again to confirm what is happening and if all the positive symptoms start again I’m not sure how to proceed. Stay on Fin? Lol

I also have no symptoms of high DHT aside from bad diffuse hairloss across entire scalp, extremely fast beard growth and growth of body hair on my shoulders/chest/back. No oily skin at all my scalp being one of the most dry spots on my body. This doesnt make any sense very bizarre but I’m exhausted trying to find the solution. Working out feels pointless as my pumps in the gym are maybe 3/10 compared to what they used to be. Strength is relatively the same but I definitely havent progressed or put on muscle in over a year.

 

[Lowe2guy]

This isn't even a SWAG, just a thought. Have you checked your potassium? Both high and low potassium can produce similar effects and both are dangerous conditions.

Yup had multiple electrolyte panels done all perfect.

 

[GreenMachineX]

This seems to be the case but I dont see how its possible. The body finds homeostasis correct? Knowing that why would I overproduce DHT relative to estrogen unless theres something wrong with my estrogen receptors and they just dont respond but I clearly have enough estrogen on paper. Maybe I have overactive 5AR is this even a thing? I might try some dbol or try the Fin out again to confirm what is happening and if all the positive symptoms start again I’m not sure how to proceed. Stay on Fin? Lol

I also have no symptoms of high DHT aside from bad diffuse hairloss across entire scalp, extremely fast beard growth and growth of body hair on my shoulders/chest/back. No oily skin at all my scalp being one of the most dry spots on my body. This doesnt make any sense very bizarre but I’m exhausted trying to find the solution. Working out feels pointless as my pumps in the gym are maybe 3/10 compared to what they used to be. Strength is relatively the same but I definitely havent progressed or put on muscle in over a year.

My symptoms are the same here too: fast beard growth, upper torso covered in hair, never oily skin and sometimes dry along with everything else we've discussed. I think this high dht to e2 ratio thing might be something to investigate though. When my e2 was 18, ecdysterone brought it up to 22 and 37, depending on dose. This was after realizing that it was doing something positive for my anxiety and panic.

At one point (and I am again) I was petrified of taking anything new for fear of side effects and interactions. I started using it anyway regardless of the silly fear, and about a week or 2 later realized I wasn't scared of trying anything new. Had some blood work done about 6 weeks later and saw the higher e2. Since then, I've gone on and off it to replicate the higher e2. I've had many other issues recently creating even more anxiety and panic nullifying its benefit, but I will be trying this again after this keflex 10 day course with my lower daily testosterone dose of 4mg daily. I stopped taking any testosterone on Monday though due to being up all night with tight chest and panic, and waiting on blood work to confirm where levels were at that time.

I've since found research that ecdysterone works on the same beta e2 receptors that dbol does. I'll report back soon.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I’ve been having those electric shock feelings but not in my legs rather in my arms and neck. Funny thing is my estrogen on paper is normal even on the high end but I feel every symptom of low e2. I’m experiencing every negative side effect including hairloss which I was told “doesnt look like MPB” as its diffuse and all over my head.

Something really odd is I made an attempt to stop this Hairloss with finasteride because I value my hair so much and what can I possibly lose as I feel so shitty already, I used it for a month and about 3 weeks in holy crap did I ever feel GREAT! By far the best I’ve ever felt,all low e2 symptoms were gone. 0 bloating, my previously painful joints (knees,back,shoulders,elbows) no longer hurt at all, pumps in the gym were skin tearing again, strength shot up, libido was insane felt like a crazed sex freak lol my wife can attest to that, morning wood returned and I had the most positive/confident mood Ive had in a long time.

Unfortunately I quit finasteride because a week later my hair started flying off my head at an alarming rate. Same rate as when I crashed my e2 for the last time which I cant seem to recover from. Im at a loss for words and cant even theorize why this occured… I’m completely clueless. Upon cessation of finasteride my symptoms gradually returned (probably when DHT built up again) but who knows.

Im at my witts end with this shit tbh, I dont know what to do. Since using finasteride i’ve tried everything from raising my trt dose which makes me feel even worse to lowering my trt dose which makes my libido a tad bit better but my joints hurt even more. Im tempted to just take finasteride again to get relief from these symptoms but I value my hair (whats left of it) and the thought that an anti androgen is making me feel that way is kind of scary when its supposed to do the exact opposite.

Anyone have any ideas?

Also, I think you said you have crazy anxiety also. What do you do for that? Take something, or deal with it?

 

[GreenMachineX]

I’ve been having those electric shock feelings but not in my legs rather in my arms and neck. Funny thing is my estrogen on paper is normal even on the high end but I feel every symptom of low e2. I’m experiencing every negative side effect including hairloss which I was told “doesnt look like MPB” as its diffuse and all over my head.

Something really odd is I made an attempt to stop this Hairloss with finasteride because I value my hair so much and what can I possibly lose as I feel so shitty already, I used it for a month and about 3 weeks in holy crap did I ever feel GREAT! By far the best I’ve ever felt,all low e2 symptoms were gone. 0 bloating, my previously painful joints (knees,back,shoulders,elbows) no longer hurt at all, pumps in the gym were skin tearing again, strength shot up, libido was insane felt like a crazed sex freak lol my wife can attest to that, morning wood returned and I had the most positive/confident mood Ive had in a long time.

Unfortunately I quit finasteride because a week later my hair started flying off my head at an alarming rate. Same rate as when I crashed my e2 for the last time which I cant seem to recover from. Im at a loss for words and cant even theorize why this occured… I’m completely clueless. Upon cessation of finasteride my symptoms gradually returned (probably when DHT built up again) but who knows.

Im at my witts end with this shit tbh, I dont know what to do. Since using finasteride i’ve tried everything from raising my trt dose which makes me feel even worse to lowering my trt dose which makes my libido a tad bit better but my joints hurt even more. Im tempted to just take finasteride again to get relief from these symptoms but I value my hair (whats left of it) and the thought that an anti androgen is making me feel that way is kind of scary when its supposed to do the exact opposite.

Anyone have any ideas?

Flaxseed dietary supplement versus hormone replacement therapy in hypercholesterolemic menopausal women - PubMed

Although 40 g of flaxseed is as effective as oral estrogen-progesterone to improve mild menopausal symptoms and to lower glucose and insulin levels, only hormone replacement therapy significantly improves cholesterol profile in hypercholesterolemic women and favorably modifies markers related to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Check that out. 40g ground flaxseed was basically a effective as HRT in reducing menopausal symptoms which is basically what we have.

 

[Lowe2guy]

Also, I think you said you have crazy anxiety also. What do you do for that? Take something, or deal with it?

Yup crazy anxiety 24/7 lol , I just deal with it unfortunately. Funny thing I forgot to mention finasteride fixed that as well super bizarre nobody believed I responded to Fin that way on forums.