Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[Country23030]

When I was with the T-mill they crashed my E2 to undetectable levels but actually I feel worse when my E2 gets toward the upper range of normal. Presently on 0.125 MG twice a week. Seems to do well. If I don't take I don't retain water or anything but get irritable, headaches and anxiety.

 

[simeoni]

The past two weeks have been somewhat better for me. I have done few changes in my protocol but Ill give an update on that later. That said everything related to dopamine is still not back to where it was - my pleasure response is still somewhat weaker.

To be honest I don't think that anyone one of us can say that we know the cause of our symptoms - at least at this point. Theres only guessing and different hypotheses based on various studies.

In my opinion its pretty clear that estrogen does have a neuroprotective effect regarding the dopaminergic neurons. The original study I posted did show a 30% loss of dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra. Now this happened in female monkeys and a "prolonged estrogen deprivation" for them was 10 days. The monkeys that received E2 treatment within 10 days were able to recover their neurons.

This effects was not seen in the group that was deprived for 30 days.

Now there is a big caveat in the study. Both groups got a brief estrogen treatment that lasted only for two days. In light of that, we really do not know if the other group could have also recovered if their treatment would have lasted longer. Also you cannot put too much emphasis on one animal study.

All in all my opinion is that if you have a predisposition for parkinson's, it is perhaps possible that a prolonged estrogen deprivation can move you to a point where you start experiencing the first symptoms of that disease. Still I do not think that you have parkinsons. The loss of dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra usually causes tremor's for the majority of people. There are parkinsons forums that are filled with "early onset" people who first noticed a tremor on their left or right hand.

And I have understood that you do not suffer from that?

Also aren't you off TRT at the moment? You said that you pulled labs last week. What were your testosterone and estrogen levels?

Another thing is that you dont really see people complaining about the "non existing dopamine" when they notice their first symptoms. They also do not speak about being agitated.

I think there's something else going on in your situation.

how are you doing simeoni? can few estrogen crashes cause parkinson disease? I feel so bad since dhea crashed my estrogen I can't even function can't work cant concentrate agitated all the time.. I felt same way first year when I crashed my estrogen with arimidex.. whats going on?? symptoms of non existing dopamine... Did I caused myself to get parkinson with dhea??? I am very far from feeling normal and its been quite a time
I never had those symptoms from low estrogen I only got them when my estrogen was completely crashed but the lowest my e2 was on senstivie test was 7 so it wasnt 0 but I still got low dopamine symptoms and situation didn't improve. I've got same symptoms as simeoni stated in the beginning of the thread
https://bmcneurol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2377-10-23

 

[lowe2sucks]

no no tremors thanks god just same symptoms as you have stated when you created thread. I haven't done labwork yet but yeah I am off trt for about 3 months..
- low libido - sometimes non existant
- cant really enjoy the things that I used to like
- I have a really low "drive" at the moment
- social interactions feel difficult
- Feel that my working memory is not the same anymore
- at worst I feel agitated
- I cant really handle stress

 

[simeoni]

I think it's important that you pull those labs. You need to make sure that your body is able to produce a decent amount of androgens on its own.

If your levels are below the range that in itself is enough to warrant those symptoms.

 

[lowe2sucks]

no I felt those symptoms entire first year after I crashed with anastrozole even on trt.. trt has no effect on those symptoms they happen only if you take too much something that lowers estrogen. but i will pull labs in next month
I am mad that everybody says dhea raises estrogen but it crashed mine im 100% confident now im miserable......
when i felt like this i actually posted labs here and my e2 was 60 and i had all kinds of low estrogen symptoms on earth

 

[Burritosnstuff]

Wondering if any of you guys have started feeling better? Kept my E2 too low for 2 months and when it came back most sides stayed.
Ones that got better were-
Libido (not 100%), stomach cramps - gone after 3 months ( it was more like IBS symptoms), tingling in hands, feet, and face(when I took stimulants) - got better after 2 months no AI, heart palpitations- got better after 2 months no AI.

Ones that are still BAD-
FATIGUE!!!, SPACEY- cloudy headed as shit, ZERO short term memory, Achy as hell, dry skin, hair loss, Blood pressure went from too high(pre-crash) to now too low, Weight went from 225lbs to now 200lbs, lost another 5lbs in the last week- even when been eating a lot and training hard 3-5X a week, no pumps in gym etc...

Labs ALL normal now. Immediately post-crash cholesterol, thyroid and a few others got out of wack but a month later all bloodwork was golden.


few things im wondering if any of you tried-
1) Cutting Test completely and cruising only on HCG
2) HGH - maybe this can kick-start something
3) Other anabolic steroids - i simply do not react to any anabolics post crash, not even trenbolone or dianabol - no side effects (normally horrible), no strength changes, NO PUMP AT ALL - curious if you guys have experienced this and also maybe this could give us a clue as to wtf is going on

Also, shot in the dark but, im wondering if you guys have done any research on other SERMS that may reverse the effects of antagonists like ADEX to the receptor (if the receptor is the culprit). I doubt there is something but it may be worth checking out.

Hope you guys start feeling better soon, wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

 

[nurselyfe]

Wondering if any of you guys have started feeling better? Kept my E2 too low for 2 months and when it came back most sides stayed.
Ones that got better were-
Libido (not 100%), stomach cramps - gone after 3 months ( it was more like IBS symptoms), tingling in hands, feet, and face(when I took stimulants) - got better after 2 months no AI, heart palpitations- got better after 2 months no AI.

Ones that are still BAD-
FATIGUE!!!, SPACEY- cloudy headed as shit, ZERO short term memory, Achy as hell, dry skin, hair loss, Blood pressure went from too high(pre-crash) to now too low, Weight went from 225lbs to now 200lbs, lost another 5lbs in the last week- even when been eating a lot and training hard 3-5X a week, no pumps in gym etc...

Labs ALL normal now. Immediately post-crash cholesterol, thyroid and a few others got out of wack but a month later all bloodwork was golden.


few things im wondering if any of you tried-
1) Cutting Test completely and cruising only on HCG
2) HGH - maybe this can kick-start something
3) Other anabolic steroids - i simply do not react to any anabolics post crash, not even trenbolone or dianabol - no side effects (normally horrible), no strength changes, NO PUMP AT ALL - curious if you guys have experienced this and also maybe this could give us a clue as to wtf is going on

Also, shot in the dark but, im wondering if you guys have done any research on other SERMS that may reverse the effects of antagonists like ADEX to the receptor (if the receptor is the culprit). I doubt there is something but it may be worth checking out.

Hope you guys start feeling better soon, wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

You have identical symptoms to me. Except I didn't have stomach cramps.

I told you to read my posts over PM and clearly you have not done so, Tamoxifen and Clomid made my condition severely worse.

To clarify, I was on 120mg T a week, took 25mg of Nolvadex for the same reason you wanted to try it, and developed extremely dry skin, agitation, more hair loss, more muscle atrophy, destroyed my libido permanently, and gave me ED... permanently. Before that, I had all these symptoms, but to a much much less degree. I then used 1 pill of 12.5mg clomifene 1 month later and the same thing happened. I did not put two and two together because at the time I still didn't think this was all possible.

 

[simeoni]

In my opinion you should pull that full thyroid panel - like I wrote you in the PM. A TSH of 3.4 or 4.8 can definitively be an indication of low thyroid function.

Looking at the big picture I can say that I have improved from the time that I started this thread.

I have lesser agitation and pretty much no anxiety. I can get a decent pump and have the same strength levels at the gym. Libido is better. Also there's now a better subjective sensation when I inject testosterone. I can feel some kick with that once again.

That said im still suffering from apathy, anhedonia, lack of drive etc. Everything related to dopamine is still my biggest symptom. Hopefully that will also improve with time.

 

[lowe2sucks]

Wondering if any of you guys have started feeling better? Kept my E2 too low for 2 months and when it came back most sides stayed.
Ones that got better were-
Libido (not 100%), stomach cramps - gone after 3 months ( it was more like IBS symptoms), tingling in hands, feet, and face(when I took stimulants) - got better after 2 months no AI, heart palpitations- got better after 2 months no AI.

Ones that are still BAD-
FATIGUE!!!, SPACEY- cloudy headed as shit, ZERO short term memory, Achy as hell, dry skin, hair loss, Blood pressure went from too high(pre-crash) to now too low, Weight went from 225lbs to now 200lbs, lost another 5lbs in the last week- even when been eating a lot and training hard 3-5X a week, no pumps in gym etc...

Labs ALL normal now. Immediately post-crash cholesterol, thyroid and a few others got out of wack but a month later all bloodwork was golden.


few things im wondering if any of you tried-
1) Cutting Test completely and cruising only on HCG
2) HGH - maybe this can kick-start something
3) Other anabolic steroids - i simply do not react to any anabolics post crash, not even trenbolone or dianabol - no side effects (normally horrible), no strength changes, NO PUMP AT ALL - curious if you guys have experienced this and also maybe this could give us a clue as to wtf is going on

Also, shot in the dark but, im wondering if you guys have done any research on other SERMS that may reverse the effects of antagonists like ADEX to the receptor (if the receptor is the culprit). I doubt there is something but it may be worth checking out.

Hope you guys start feeling better soon, wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

when i crashed my e2 with arimidex i was on cycle and also lost all response to anabolic steroids.. i immediately started losing muscle, strenght, pumps and started shrinking. when i tried to increase dose it started getting even worse. androgens make me feel worse - i get feminisation like effects from them.

 

[nurselyfe]

when i crashed my e2 with arimidex i was on cycle and also lost all response to anabolic steroids.. i immediately started losing muscle, strenght, pumps and started shrinking. when i tried to increase dose it started getting even worse. androgens make me feel worse - i get feminisation like effects from them.

Can you elaborate on "feminisation" ... Let's start being a bit more concise here considering we are discussing a unforeseen/not yet known (as we claim) paradoxical response to a hormone that needs to be balanced in men to have beneficial effects, otherwise unbalanced (too high or low) known to cause a wide array of issues like feminization or decreased libido.

So, regarding our condition, I doubt you mean gynecomastia or things like softer thinner skin.

I think you mean loss of libido, loss of strength, ED, hair loss, etc?

 

[Lames]

I think crashing my e2 somehow made my body more sensitive to e2. I've had my e2 in the high 20s measured by sensitive e2 assay and have had itchy nipples, sweating, overly emotional etc. My serum DHT has been at the very low end of reference range measured twice. If blood DHT is accurate then maybe I don't have enough DHT to antagonize the e2? I dont know.

 

[nurselyfe]

I think crashing my e2 somehow made my body more sensitive to e2. I've had my e2 in the high 20s measured by sensitive e2 assay and have had itchy nipples, sweating, overly emotional etc. My serum DHT has been at the very low end of reference range measured twice. If blood DHT is accurate then maybe I don't have enough DHT to antagonize the e2? I dont know.

This would fit my theory of what is taking place on a molecular level here. What you just explained is what initially happened to me.

Ive crashed my e2 many times before, but never have I ever experienced these sides and always felt fine after a few days. However, every time I crashed, it felt as if I would become more sensitive to E2. The same blood levels of E2 and not changing my protocol would cause more high symptoms.

Then last May when this all began, I was using massive doses of arimidex to get a therapeutic effect. One day I used 1.5mg and my symptoms immediately appeared and have only got worse since despite not using any arimidex and perfect blood levels.

I believe an initial over expression of Estrogen receptors due to deprivation is what causes the over sensitivity. Then further deprivation may induce negative autoregulation causing receptor shut down, in laymans terms.

 

[Gman86]

This would fit my theory of what is taking place on a molecular level here. What you just explained is what initially happened to me.

Ive crashed my e2 many times before, but never have I ever experienced these sides and always felt fine after a few days. However, every time I crashed, it felt as if I would become more sensitive to E2. The same blood levels of E2 and not changing my protocol would cause more high symptoms.

Then last May when this all began, I was using massive doses of arimidex to get a therapeutic effect. One day I used 1.5mg and my symptoms immediately appeared and have only got worse since despite not using any arimidex and perfect blood levels.

I believe an initial over expression of Estrogen receptors due to deprivation is what causes the over sensitivity. Then further deprivation may induce negative autoregulation causing receptor shut down, in laymans terms.

Awesome reply. And I think you’re probably spot on with your analysis and assumptions. The body is very smart and is always looking to maintain homeostasis. I was just listening to a podcast with a guy that’s practiced psychiatry for 30+ years, and he was saying why antidepressants are so ineffective. He explained how SSRI’s, for example, increase circulating seratonin. So since there is more seratonin floating around, to compensate for this your body downregulates the amount of seratonin receptors. This leads to the person either needing to continually up their dose or try different medications to get the same desired effect.

 

[lowe2sucks]

This would fit my theory of what is taking place on a molecular level here. What you just explained is what initially happened to me.

Ive crashed my e2 many times before, but never have I ever experienced these sides and always felt fine after a few days. However, every time I crashed, it felt as if I would become more sensitive to E2. The same blood levels of E2 and not changing my protocol would cause more high symptoms.

Then last May when this all began, I was using massive doses of arimidex to get a therapeutic effect. One day I used 1.5mg and my symptoms immediately appeared and have only got worse since despite not using any arimidex and perfect blood levels.

I believe an initial over expression of Estrogen receptors due to deprivation is what causes the over sensitivity. Then further deprivation may induce negative autoregulation causing receptor shut down, in laymans terms.

what theraupetic effect you wanted to get from arimidex? stuff is poison literally and makes one feel like total crap
reason why you feel like crap post crash even with normal e2 numbers is because of the damage that was done to your brain and body during estrogen deprivation

 

[nurselyfe]

what theraupetic effect you wanted to get from arimidex? stuff is poison literally and makes one feel like total crap
reason why you feel like crap post crash even with normal e2 numbers is because of the damage that was done to your brain and body during estrogen deprivation

Is this a joke? Arimidex is not poison. Anything in excess is not good. That's like saying cheese burgers are poison.

Practitioners may prescribe arimidex off label to achieve the therapeutic effect of cessation of high estradiol symptoms.

I personally have crashed my E2 many times and never ever "felt like crap." At most, my joints hurt and I was dehydrated. And that always went away with in 2-3 days maximum.

Clearly something else happened to you and I but it seems like you're still living in a fairy tale land.

 

[lowe2sucks]

Is this a joke? Arimidex is not poison. Anything in excess is not good. That's like saying cheese burgers are poison.

Practitioners may prescribe arimidex off label to achieve the therapeutic effect of cessation of high estradiol symptoms.

I personally have crashed my E2 many times and never ever "felt like crap." At most, my joints hurt and I was dehydrated. And that always went away with in 2-3 days maximum.

Clearly something else happened to you and I but it seems like you're still living in a fairy tale land.

everybody will tell you crashed e2 is hell on earth if you never felt like crap with crashed e2 you must be alien.. arimidex is poison it damages brain, bones, heart, adrenal glands no physician who cares about patient health will prescribe it. estrogen makes you healthier supressing it damages you, makes you irritable, depressed and can even make you manic.
now when your e2 goes up you feel like you are dying thats what arimidex did to you death of your cells

 

[Lames]

Yeah. This is very bad situation because symptoms persist now for over a year and I think I might have some blood sugar / insulin issues too which I did not have before all this crap... I wish I never took one pill of arimidex. Doctors aren't much help either so I need to figure something out. I've tired nolva for my mild gyno and although it raises my testosterone it has no effect on my general feeling etc. I think one thing that would point to the sensitivity issue is that both arimidex / nolva, no matter how carefully I taper off even from short amount of time / small dosages, I feel like I get worse symptoms when doing that.

 

[nurselyfe]

everybody will tell you crashed e2 is hell on earth if you never felt like crap with crashed e2 you must be alien.. arimidex is poison it damages brain, bones, heart, adrenal glands no physician who cares about patient health will prescribe it. estrogen makes you healthier supressing it damages you, makes you irritable, depressed and can even make you manic.
now when your e2 goes up you feel like you are dying thats what arimidex did to you death of your cells

Arimidex is not poison. Using anything in excess can damage you - this goes for any drug.. Used correctly under a knowledgeable TRT specialist supervision it can be perfectly fine , it needs to be in range because estrogen is essential for male physiology, I would argue just as much as testosterone.

Your last sentence I do not understand what you're trying to say but this only happens to you and I. No one else. Possibly burritosnstuff but that's still tentative. The reason it happens to just us and no one I just said below.

I have no real evidence, only in vivo and in vitro models, but AT LEAST I am being proactive about it and trying to get further molecular work up rather than ranting on forums about how arimidex is poison and spewing bro science every where. You really need to get with it man.

 

[Checkdis]

So how does one recover from a very bad crash and deprived estrogen for a long time?

I have long lasting symptoms that TRT will just not fix. And I have been battling for 1.5 years. I don’t know how much more I can take sadly, I have tried just about everything.

There has to be a way to recover from this horrible curse.

I am a suffer too from crashed E2. Just follow all my threads and posts. I have labs to show and even with TRT and now high E2 I still feel like crap. Doctors believe I have anxiety which I really don’t. I went and saw a psychologist and his professional view after a couple of months visits said I had mild anxiety....

Amitriptyline and benzodiazepines only help.

Also my frequent urination only effects me during the day, but when I sleep I am fine, no nocturia.which makes me lead back to psychosomatic. I know i’m not crazy so I am debating about starting PCT but monitor closely by my doctor. Come off everything and see if my body can find some sort of homeostasis.

Current symptoms:
Frequent urination
Dizzy
Flushing
Sweat a lot little activity
Heat intolerant
Night sweats
No appetite
Brain fog
Hard to think of words when speaking
Bloating
Hard to see at night
Light sensitive

Luckily I don’t have ED and libido is just fine. Wify is happy no complaints.

 

[Vitamin_C]

//So since there is more seratonin floating around, to compensate for this your body downregulates the amount of seratonin receptors.//

Same with dopamine, insulin etc....when there is too much, the receptors become desensitized and may not function at full capacity. This is what causes T2DM. Low amounts of insulin does not reduce receptor function, but high amounts do. However some of these guys are saying the receptors changed as a result of a DEFICIT of a substance, in which the evidence seems to be scant. For instance, too much masturbation/porn, addictions, drugs will cause a surplus of dopamine in the brain and eventually the dopamine receptors get desensitized and don't function properly, however, quitting these activities indeed shows the receptors do indeed recover and the body finds homeostasis. All of this is with an ABUNDANCE of substances, not a deficit. Speculating that receptors changed because of a lack of estrogen seems to fall in line with bro science and the evidence just isn't there to a large degree. I think we'd be seeing something related to receptor changes with all the women who take anti-estrogens for sometimes up to a decade for breast cancer who crush their estrogen to minuscule levels. Also, receptors seem to show a remarkable ability to recover.