Test P improved TRT, libido still at 0 – what next?

[Kenp]

I completely agree. Have you tried Kisspeptin? I got some a while back but still haven't tried it (was busy experimenting with cream, neurosteroids, etc...). I've heard very good things from several men who'd incorporated it into their protocol, especially concerning libido, and even with once/day injections of 100-200mcg.

If you haven't tried it I would definitely give it a shot.

Yeah Kisspeptin is very interesting, going to try it too since I have PFS. Recent PFS guy had improvements from it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinasterideSyndrome/comments/1hgbp3m/update_my_personal_kisspeptin10_experience_1

"I'd say I'm about a month and perhaps a week in, and I've been stable for several weeks at what I would say is probably somewhere between 75-100% back to my original baseline, in both ability to obtain erection, ability to maintain erection, ability to enjoy orgasm, ability to become mentally aroused, and feeling 'the spark' (the spark 'feeling' that you get when you see something arousing that triggers your arousal)."

 

[ziegen]

I completely agree. Have you tried Kisspeptin? I got some a while back but still haven't tried it (was busy experimenting with cream, neurosteroids, etc...). I've heard very good things from several men who'd incorporated it into their protocol, especially concerning libido, and even with once/day injections of 100-200mcg.

If you haven't tried it I would definitely give it a shot.

I haven't tried it, read about it a month ago or so. However it seems getting such things in the US or UK is quite simple and trivial, but for Europe I cannot find any sites. We don't have any "specialized" sites that would sell peptides or various "gray zone" chemicals. It's also quite a niche thing so I doubt you can easily find it on the black market.

Are you using compounded test cream or a brand name?

I'm making my own cream as I wrote a few comments above. I'm in Europe and here we have very limited options in terms of treatment, only gel and Nebido. It's also too niche to be found on the black market.

 

[SSHSSA74]

Are you using compounded test cream or a brand name?

What was your DHEA at when you were tested?

 

[SSHSSA74]

Are you using compounded test cream or a brand name?

@ziegen,

I'm on a cream protocol as well and it has been by far the most successful protocol I've been on in 4+ years of trying everything under the sun (Test C/E/P, Primo/Masteron, Adex, Asin, cream on scrotum and non-scrotum, hCG, Pregnenolone, DHEA, HGH...).

For me neurosteroids are the missing piece. Cream feels better than any other Testosterone modality by far, but without neurosteroids something is missing. I'm right now in the process of fine tuning Preg/DHEA in different forms (topical vs oral (micronized IR or SR), ...), but 3 clicks AM on the scrotum + 5mg/day slow release micronized Preg (compounded pharma) and 25mg/day topical DHEA had me feeling better than I ever did in my life. Libido super high also.

I switched to non-scrotal for the Test cream as an experiment but didn't feel nearly as good. Thing is I changed too many things at once unfortunately (switched to 2x/day application and switched oral Preg for topical), but regardless I think a lot of the insanely high confidence and unshakable good mood I was feeling was from the extra DHT from scrotal application. I also think Preg is essential for me.

I'm now back on oral micornized SR Preg + topical DHEA and trying 2x/day scrotal applicationfor Test cream, because just like you my trough is a lot (lot) lower than peak on once/day application and I feel slightly lower energy in the morning at trough levels (still much better than pre-TRT though).

Either way, some combo of cream + neurosteroids is an amazing protocol for me, completely life changing. If you haven't tried playing with those I highly recommend it

 

[SSHSSA74]

For a couple of weeks I even added 20mg of Pregnenolone and DHEA daily along with HCG, but it still did nothing. My E2 is always good, you can see my updates and see that it's never even close to being high, some might even say it's a bit on the lower side compared to T. When I used standard doses of DHT derivatives or really low dose AI, I always felt low E2 symptoms, usually mood changes. I even tried increasing E2 and while levels increased I didn't get any negatives or positives, so I can handle it well, but gain nothing from it. HCG also doesn't increase my E2 too much, it seems to rise slightly, but proportionately with T. I have no blood flow issues, this has always been good, however I do have ED due to having completely 0 libido and arousal at all possible times. Can't really get an erection, or rather at the right time, if you're never aroused.

It seems I'm just one of the few people that on TRT doesn't get any libido benefits, or worse yet, some lose libido. I guess that's just how some of us are made and nobody really knows what's going on. That is not to say that TRT does nothing for me, I have roughly 15 symptoms resolved, some were present since I was a child, so quality of life is way up.

There are some theories floating around, but none can be proven, tested for or solved, so it's a moot point in any case. For my personal belief, I'd use Occam's razor, meaning that the simplest reason is usually the correct one, and, in my opinion, the simplest explanation is that having your hormonal system shutdown prevents you from getting full symptom relief. I'd say this is somewhat "proven" by HCG, as many report benefits which don't seem related to the minor increases in T and E2, hell some get benefits, but higher E2 brings some unrelated negatives. During my research in the last months, it seems people also use Kisspeptin, which is a hormone in the hypothalamus, and many report improvements to libido and other benefits. I was recently looking into Enclomiphene and came across @Cataceous experimentations with GnRH, which is another hormone in the hypothalamus, and he noted several improvements, including libido. He used really low dose TRT along with Enclo and multiple injections of GnRH spread throughout the day, a difficult experiment to say the least.

So Kisspeptin, GnRH, LH and FSH form the hormonal chain to the production of sex hormones. While their main function is to produce sex hormones it does seem like they play an additional role in the function of your body, that isn't truly understood and seems to be different for everyone. Maybe I get no libido benefits due to the shutdown, meanwhile another man might never fix his sleep issues. Based on the fact that many of us are on TRT with good results, after dialing in, it seems that having proper sex hormone levels is more imporant for general health, than having these hormones running, but they do seem to play some role. I think if we could prevent shutdown on any hormonal therapy we would see massive overall improvements. Many note improvements with just HCG, which mimics only LH. What if libido for me hides in one of the other ones or multiple ones? What if we could mimic any other of these four? What if we could mimic all of them on the same time? Some closing questions.

Where do you get

@ziegen,

I'm on a cream protocol as well and it has been by far the most successful protocol I've been on in 4+ years of trying everything under the sun (Test C/E/P, Primo/Masteron, Adex, Asin, cream on scrotum and non-scrotum, hCG, Pregnenolone, DHEA, HGH...).

For me neurosteroids are the missing piece. Cream feels better than any other Testosterone modality by far, but without neurosteroids something is missing. I'm right now in the process of fine tuning Preg/DHEA in different forms (topical vs oral (micronized IR or SR), ...), but 3 clicks AM on the scrotum + 5mg/day slow release micronized Preg (compounded pharma) and 25mg/day topical DHEA had me feeling better than I ever did in my life. Libido super high also.

I switched to non-scrotal for the Test cream as an experiment but didn't feel nearly as good. Thing is I changed too many things at once unfortunately (switched to 2x/day application and switched oral Preg for topical), but regardless I think a lot of the insanely high confidence and unshakable good mood I was feeling was from the extra DHT from scrotal application. I also think Preg is essential for me.

I'm now back on oral micornized SR Preg + topical DHEA and trying 2x/day scrotal applicationfor Test cream, because just like you my trough is a lot (lot) lower than peak on once/day application and I feel slightly lower energy in the morning at trough levels (still much better than pre-TRT though).

Either way, some combo of cream + neurosteroids is an amazing protocol for me, completely life changing. If you haven't tried playing with those I highly recommend it.

What was your DHEA levels before supplementation? Which pharmacy do you get your 5mg of micronized slow release Preg?

 

[Jerajera]

Yeah Kisspeptin is very interesting, going to try it too since I have PFS. Recent PFS guy had improvements from it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinasterideSyndrome/comments/1hgbp3m/update_my_personal_kisspeptin10_experience_1

"I'd say I'm about a month and perhaps a week in, and I've been stable for several weeks at what I would say is probably somewhere between 75-100% back to my original baseline, in both ability to obtain erection, ability to maintain erection, ability to enjoy orgasm, ability to become mentally aroused, and feeling 'the spark' (the spark 'feeling' that you get when you see something arousing that triggers your arousal)."

Thanks for linking that, I'm going to try it. It's been sitting in my med cabinet for a few months now, it's probably time to give it a shot.

 

[Forty2]

It's basically just adding powder to a cream base. So the cream base already has everything in it for it to be a proper cream. Preservatives, emulsifiers, moisturizes and protects the skin, etc., but it contains no active ingredients. I just bought a medical cream base via Amazon for about $20 for 1kg, which will last me a long time. Now the pharmacy T creams, well they're technically gels, if I'm not mistaken, have special "cream" bases, which I'm sure are better than something generic. But you can't get those or are very expensive, and my home made cream works well enough, so there is no point either way.

Now you have your powder and your cream base and you can mix it. Powder can be further crushed to smaller particles with a mortar and pestle, but if it's micronized, it's as fine as it gets so no need. Let's say we want 100ml of 10% cream. You take 10g of powder and put it into something like a cereal bowl and then you add 20g of regular cooking oil, as hormones dissolve in fats. I played with oil a bit and found the 1:2 ratio to work well. Too little oil and the cream is gritty and might not be evenly distributed, too much oil and the entire cream is oily. Anyway powder and oil are mixed, now I cover the bowl and put it aside until the next day, but I mix it a few times during the day.

Considering I'm making 100ml (about 100g) of cream and I already have a 30g total weight, I need to add in 70g of the cream base. I put in the cream base 1/4 at a time and mix it really well, until all the cream is used. Now I cover the cream again and put it aside for the next day and once again I mix it a few times during the day. You might notice the oil not being completely mixed with the cream, but after mixing a few times during the day and with a bit of time it will fully mix. It does have emulsifiers in it that combine water and oil after all.

And so the cream is ready, I transferred it into a small and wide jar with a lid and I use measuring spoons to apply proper doses. Alternatively you can fill it into tubes (30-100 ml I guess), but it's a bit messy and a pain to deal with, plus you need to throw out the tube after using. You can then take a 5ml injection, pull out the plunger and fill it with cream and then apply the correct amount. The first method is great for home applications and the second method is great for traveling.

Here is an actual guide, which I used, from a maker of medical gels: Home Compounding Guide with PHLOJEL® Ultra

This guide goes into details and I followed their instructions fully for the first time, but then I figured out how to simplify the process. In the guide it seems like the process is longer and more difficult, but it isn't. They do cover adding some extra materials as some are lost during the process. They also mention sterility, but considering you're making cream, which already contains preservatives, I don't think you have to worry much. I would suggest that you don't make cream for more than 6 months in advance, better yet 3 months in advance, but that's your choice. I don't think anything bad would happen, but it might lose effectiveness. Also I didn't use DMSO as it makes the skin absorb EVERYTHING, which means the ingredients from the cream and potentially some bacteria could get absorbed as well, so I'd rather play it safe. They also mention that you can only make about a 12.5% strength cream, for anything higher you need to use additional substances, which I know nothing about, so I settled for the 10% cream.

Thanks.
I tried making a 10% test cream using Phlojel Ultra a long time ago but even though I ground the test powder down very well it still left a gritty texture after application. Perhaps I should have dissolved the powder completely in benzyl alcohol before mixing it with the Phlojel. I'm unsure, however, if absorbing benzyl alcohol through the skin would be harmful over time?

 

[Forty2]

@ziegen,

I'm on a cream protocol as well and it has been by far the most successful protocol I've been on in 4+ years of trying everything under the sun (Test C/E/P, Primo/Masteron, Adex, Asin, cream on scrotum and non-scrotum, hCG, Pregnenolone, DHEA, HGH...).

For me neurosteroids are the missing piece. Cream feels better than any other Testosterone modality by far, but without neurosteroids something is missing. I'm right now in the process of fine tuning Preg/DHEA in different forms (topical vs oral (micronized IR or SR), ...), but 3 clicks AM on the scrotum + 5mg/day slow release micronized Preg (compounded pharma) and 25mg/day topical DHEA had me feeling better than I ever did in my life. Libido super high also.

I switched to non-scrotal for the Test cream as an experiment but didn't feel nearly as good. Thing is I changed too many things at once unfortunately (switched to 2x/day application and switched oral Preg for topical), but regardless I think a lot of the insanely high confidence and unshakable good mood I was feeling was from the extra DHT from scrotal application. I also think Preg is essential for me.

I'm now back on oral micornized SR Preg + topical DHEA and trying 2x/day scrotal applicationfor Test cream, because just like you my trough is a lot (lot) lower than peak on once/day application and I feel slightly lower energy in the morning at trough levels (still much better than pre-TRT though).

Either way, some combo of cream + neurosteroids is an amazing protocol for me, completely life changing. If you haven't tried playing with those I highly recommend it.

A few questions.
1) Is one click of test cream equivalent to 50mg?

2) What makes pregnenolone either SR or IR?
I'm looking at buying micronized pregnenolone, but it does not state whether it is SR or IR

3) Why are you applying DHEA transdermally instead of taking it orally? Is transdermal application more effective?

4) 25mg seems like a low dose for transdermal DHEA. Where are you applying it and what percentage of it do you think you're absorbing?

 

[Jerajera]

A few questions.
1) Is one click of test cream equivalent to 50mg?

It is for me (200mg/mL, 4 clicks/mL)

2) What makes pregnenolone either SR or IR?
I'm looking at buying micronized pregnenolone, but it does not state whether it is SR or IR

I don't think you can find SR OTC but I can't say for sure, I'm getting it pharma compounded. SR uses a process called E4M ("a controlled-release polymer that is used in slow-release medications to gradually release the active ingredient over a period of time. When ingested, Methocel E4M forms a gel barrier that controls the rate at which the medication is released into the bloodstream").

3) Why are you applying DHEA transdermally instead of taking it orally? Is transdermal application more effective?

Oral DHEA makes me very bloated even at 10mg/day, presumably because of high conversion into E2. Topicals in general seem to follow a more androgenic conversion pathway because of the high density of 5-a reductase enzymes found in the skin, and there's some vague evidence that this principle would apply to DHEA.

Anecdotally it makes a huge difference with Testosterone and conversion to DHT, and it seems to also make a difference for me with DHEA.

4) 25mg seems like a low dose for transdermal DHEA. Where are you applying it and what percentage of it do you think you're absorbing?

Inner elbows and forearms. According to compounded pharma company it's between 20 and 25% absorption. I might try higher dosages eventually, this is a fairly recent protocol for me and I think some of the Pregnenolone already probably converts to DHEA.

 

[ziegen]

Thanks.
I tried making a 10% test cream using Phlojel Ultra a long time ago but even though I ground the test powder down very well it still left a gritty texture after application. Perhaps I should have dissolved the powder completely in benzyl alcohol before mixing it with the Phlojel. I'm unsure, however, if absorbing benzyl alcohol through the skin would be harmful over time?

Even if the cream/gel is gritty it will still absorb. Maybe the absorption is reduced to an extent, but it still works very well. But as I have written, I partially dissolve the powder in regular cooking oil in a 1:2 powder to oil ratio. This makes sure that it's not gritty, or well I still feel a tiny bit of grittiness, if I really focus, but it's good enough. Different substances dissolve in different liquids, as far as I'm aware all hormones are fat soluble, therefore the use of oil made sense.

 

[Forty2]

It is for me (200mg/mL, 4 clicks/mL)



I don't think you can find SR OTC but I can't say for sure, I'm getting it pharma compounded. SR uses a process called E4M ("a controlled-release polymer that is used in slow-release medications to gradually release the active ingredient over a period of time. When ingested, Methocel E4M forms a gel barrier that controls the rate at which the medication is released into the bloodstream").



Oral DHEA makes me very bloated even at 10mg/day, presumably because of high conversion into E2. Topicals in general seem to follow a more androgenic conversion pathway because of the high density of 5-a reductase enzymes found in the skin, and there's some vague evidence that this principle would apply to DHEA.

Anecdotally it makes a huge difference with Testosterone and conversion to DHT, and it seems to also make a difference for me with DHEA.



Inner elbows and forearms. According to compounded pharma company it's between 20 and 25% absorption. I might try higher dosages eventually, this is a fairly recent protocol for me and I think some of the Pregnenolone already probably converts to DHEA.

Thanks.
Do you think trans-scrotal application of DHEA cream would yield even better effects?

Do you think if someone not on TRT were to use DHEA cream and 5mg pregnenolone it would suppress endogenous testosterone production?

 

[Forty2]

Even if the cream/gel is gritty it will still absorb. Maybe the absorption is reduced to an extent, but it still works very well. But as I have written, I partially dissolve the powder in regular cooking oil in a 1:2 powder to oil ratio. This makes sure that it's not gritty, or well I still feel a tiny bit of grittiness, if I really focus, but it's good enough. Different substances dissolve in different liquids, as far as I'm aware all hormones are fat soluble, therefore the use of oil made sense.

Do you heat the oil or just let the powder sit in oil for a day, stirring it a few times?

 

[ziegen]

Thanks.
Do you think trans-scrotal application of DHEA cream would yield even better effects?

Do you think if someone not on TRT were to use DHEA cream and 5mg pregnenolone it would suppress endogenous testosterone production?

In my tests with T cream I noticed about a 2.5x higher hormonal levels with applications to the scrotum, compared to the shoulder, so I'd say anything will absorb more on scrotal applications. However there isn't that much space on the scrotum, so applying 2 or more creams would be a hassle.

DHEA and Pregnenolone are adrenal hormones, they don't really affect sex hormones that much, so no suppression. However there is a thing called the HPA axis, which regulates your adrenal hormones, so supplementing will likely cause a shutdown.

Do you heat the oil or just let the powder sit in oil for a day, stirring it a few times?

No heating, I'm no chemist so I have no idea what would happen to hormones in this case. I'm keeping it simple and have good results from it, no need to over complicate things.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 8:

In the last month I've been running the protocol mentioned in the previous update, application to the scrotum, 200mg at 9AM and 100mg at 6PM. Everything is still fine as before, no changes, however there are a few more things I wanted to test out, to get a good feel for this.
I made a new batch of cream with a slightly modified formula and I wanted to make sure that it works the same. The previous batch was a little grainy (but everything still absorbed), so I added extra oil for it to dissolve better, and it worked, the new batch is completely smooth. Next I wanted to see what my new trough is on this protocol. And finally I wanted to see what my levels would be if I applied to the shoulder.

Trough (Scrotum):
Total T: 312 ng/dl (range 220-870 ng/dl)
E2: 28 ng/L (range 10-45 ng/L)

In absolute numbers my trough isn't that good, however in relative numbers it's a pretty significant increase. Obviously the additional application of 100mg in the evening works quite well. I don't feel bad having such a trough as the cream absorbs fast in the morning, so I'm not running such levels for long, but I still think it would be better to have it slightly higher. I think this opens up the possibility of running 150mg in the morning and evening, 12 hours apart, as is the standard cream protocol. While I wanted to have a drop off in levels throughout the night, maybe the main point of the hormonal fluctuation is just that, having them fluctuate throughout the day, regardless if you have 2 peaks and 2 troughs in 24 hours.

Peak (Shoulders):
Total T: 624 ng/dl (range 220-870 ng/dl)
E2: 22 ng/L (range 10-45 ng/L)
DHT: 1460 pg/ml (range 300-850 pg/ml)

On scrotal applications I was running pretty high DHT numbers and it seems we don't really know the implications of this long term. I wanted to see what my levels would be if I applied anywhere else and I decided to try the shoulder. Now the peak value here is horrible, it's around a third of what it is on scrotal applications. I also noticed that some symptoms started coming back. I think this just goes to prove how much more effective scrotal applications are and that they're most likely vital for the majority of men on dermal applications of T. Other places could be viable if higher % creams were used, something like 40%, meaning that you just put that much more T on the skin in absolute numbers.
I was most surprised by the DHT levels, which are quite high compared to T. I thought the conversion would be significantly lower just by applying on the shoulder. I thought that having lower T levels would decrease DHT significantly, but that just isn't the case. My expectation was having DHT at about 800. In any case shoulder applications are a no go, low T levels, while still running high DHT. I'll go back to the scrotum.

I think I have a good feel for the T cream now, I still like it very much. I'll switch to applying 150mg to the scrotum 2x a day with 12 hours apart, as is the standard protocol. If it won't feel right, then I'll go back to what I was doing here. I will likely not do any more blood tests with cream, other than a yearly checkup.

 

[Seagal]

I would ask how you know the peak time when the T cream is applied to the shoulders. More important that some of your symptoms returned thus either higher dosage on shoulders with probably smaller difference between peak and trough, and less DHT than scrotum. But there is the individual response to the protocol. Interesting.

 

[ziegen]

I would ask how you know the peak time when the T cream is applied to the shoulders. More important that some of your symptoms returned thus either higher dosage on shoulders with probably smaller difference between peak and trough, and less DHT than scrotum. But there is the individual response to the protocol. Interesting.

I looked at the threads on this forum about cream and noticed that in many graphs they present and mention the peak of cream to be 5 hours after the application. Now I wasn't focused on where exactly they applied, though I believe it was on the scrotum, however I don't see any other place on the skin having later peaks, I mean why would it?
All my peak tests were done 5 hours after application and you can clearly see a massive difference between the scrotal and shoulder application. I don't think shoulders provide any benefits, you don't have a smaller difference between peaks and troughs, you just need a higher dose to achieve similar numbers to scrotal. DHT is also not any lower in my opinion, look at the scrotal peak, 1400 T and 2200 DHT, meanwhile the shoulder application has 600 T and 1400 DHT. Yes the absolute number is lower, but the ratio is even higher.

 

[ziegen]

UPDATE 9:

In mid November I've been running T cream for about 2 weeks after switching from Test P + DHT. At this point I've also been running increased DHT levels for 6 weeks. It became obvious to me that while this was the best TRT protocol I ran, and had great results, it's not going to do anything for my libido. I started experimenting with some additional substances which very unlikely to help, but I just did some process of elimination. Obviously nothing worked.

I started looking into the PSSD/PFS/PAS forums, despite knowing it's a waste of time. They don't know what exactly is the issue, they only have theories that aren't proven, nothing to test for and no solution. I think they're doing a great job with what they have available, but no success yet. I looked at their symptoms and many of them are similar to low T, however a good amount are unique to them. Low T people will also resolve most the similar issues with TRT, yet the PSSD/PFS/PAS people can't seem to get a break regardless of what they try. While them resolving their state might help us in some way, I honestly believe that our issues aren't really connected.

In any case, looking at these forums I started thinking if I might have a similar thing going on as them. I looked at several theories, androgen sensitivity, epigenetics (changes in genetic expression) and gut microbiome. In all honestly, while one of these theories might be true for their state, I think I'm dealing with a completely different problem. Looking at everything I believe that my issues stem from the shutdown that occurs when using exogenous hormones. I think this is somewhat proven with HCG, as it reactivates part of your system and can bring massive symptom relief despite a minuscule increase in hormones. There is also Kisspeptin-10, which, I think, is the first hormone in the chain of sex hormone production, and it's looked at as a potential cure for no/low libido. To me it seems that while the primary role Kisspeptin-10, GnRH, LH and FSH, is to produce sex hormones and sperm, they also serve an additional function in the body that doesn't seem to be understood just yet. It also seems that it's different for individuals, many men don't need HCG for libido, while some desperately need it. This shutdown might be preventing people from clearing the last 1-2 symptoms and nothing else will work. You can only really add HCG and hope this partial restoration will bring the relief you want.

Due to this I started thinking of going off TRT and trying Enclomiphene and seeing what happens, despite knowing full well that I've been on TRT for 4 years and that Enclomiphene usually has bad symptom resolution. I mean I was already thinking about it for like a year and now it seemed like a good time to try. I think I was in a pretty good state to come off of TRT. I was on cream (fast out of your system and lower suppression), my dose was normal nothing too much and I've been running HCG for a while, so balls were nearly normal sized. I looked at the steroid subreddit for PCT protocols and it seems like Nolvadex is the best choice and I just happened to have it in my stash.

In early December I kept my T cream + HCG protocol and just added 20mg of Nolvadex daily. I did this to give my body a bit of a head start. After 2 weeks (roughly 11 weeks total of running increased DHT levels) I dropped everything and continued with just Nolvadex. After 3 weeks I started noticing that my eyes are very dry and that I have trouble sleeping, I was awake for 30 hours straight several times and just couldn't sleep. I started doing 20mg EOD instead and my eyes got better, but not as good as before, and now I've had an inverted problem with sleep, I could barely stay awake for 12 hours before collapsing. I expected that the transition won't be pleasant so I just stuck with it. In late December my order of Enclomiphene came and I started taking it 12.5mg on MWF instead of 20mg of Nolvadex EOD. Supposedly not taking it everyday gives your E2 receptors a break which can increase the symptom relief of it. Today (Enclomiphene taken on Monday, tested on Tuesday) in the morning, roughly 1.5 hours after waking up, I did a blood test to see how my hormones look like:

LH: 3.41 ng/L (range 0.5-12 ng/L)
Total T: 736 ng/dl (range 220-870 ng/dl)
E2: 41 ng/L (range 10-45 ng/L)

Honestly I was shocked at the results, it seems my system is basically fully restored. Considering I've been on TRT for 4 years and I wasn't using HCG for the first 2 years, and that I've been off TRT for only 1 month, the results are great, number wise. The transition also wasn't too bad, the most obvious problem is with my energy levels and a bit of eye dryness. Otherwise I'd say I'm on something like 70-80% of TRT with T cream, the intensity of symptom relief is lessened, but it's still here to a good degree. No changes to libido though, erectile quality is a bit lower and my balls gained an additional 20% in size. I'll keep this protocol until the end of the month and then try 6.25mg MWF and check my levels again.

After this entire ordeal I wish I had started with Enclomiphene. I'd start with 3.125mg MWF, wait for 1 month, see how I feel and get tested. Then depending on the numbers and effects I might've increased it to 6.25mg MWF and maybe eventually to 12.5mg MWF. It might not work now, it might not have worked then, I might've ended up in the same situation where libido is still dead regardless of what I tried first, who knows, but I wish I would've give Enclomiphene a chance first. Not sure what the conclusion of this update is, I'll let everyone draw their own lessons, but for now it's just an experiment.