T Propionate protocol

[BillyJ03z]

I ran PROP ED/SQ @ 15mg for 3 months... below is my blood work 10hr post inject and 24hr trough..... and I also ran Cyp/Prop blend and also posted labs below....

Test Prop @ 15mg ED/SQ (10hr Post-inject)

Testosterone, Male	1,199.2 ng/dL	280.0-1,100.0 ng/dL	H
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin	22 nmol/L	11 - 80 nmol/L
Testosterone, Free	321 pg/mL	47 - 244 pg/mL	H
-Doctor didn't order DHT

Test Prop @ 15mg ED/SQ (24hr trough)

Testosterone, Total

531.4 ng/dL

300.0 - 890.0 ng/dL

Testosterone, Free

149.0 pg/mL

47.0 - 244.0 pg/mL

5 A DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE

652.3 pg/mL

106.0 - 719.0 pg/mL

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin

20 nmol/L

11 - 80 nmol/L

*More than 50% drop in Total and Free from Post to Trough....


Test Cyp-160/Prop-40 (Empower blend) @ 16mg ED/SQ (10Hr Post-inject)

Test, Total - 939.4 ng/dl
Test, Free - 262 pg/ml
SHBG - 17 nmol/L

Test Cyp-160/Prop-40 (Empower blend) @ 16mg ED/SQ (24Hr trough)
***This test was accomplished about a month later from the date I tested my Post-inject and I also started using 2.5 grains Armour Thyroid which is why my SHBG raised.

Test, Total - 675.5 ng/dl
Test, Free - 163 pg/ml
SHBG - 26 nmol/L

 

[Willyt]

I ran PROP ED/SQ @ 15mg for 3 months... below is my blood work 10hr post inject and 24hr trough..... and I also ran Cyp/Prop blend and also posted labs below....

Many thanks for taking the time to test these two. Very interesting. Which one did you prefer?

 

[BillyJ03z]

Many thanks for taking the time to test these two. Very interesting. Which one did you prefer?

Couldn't really tell the difference on either because my sleep is so bad .... I have literally been sleep deprived the entire 12 plus years I have been on TRT.

 

[Jerajera]

Couldn't really tell the difference on either because my sleep is so bad .... I have literally been sleep deprived the entire 12 plus years I have been on TRT.

Thanks for the lab results. I'm surprised there's so much variation on the Cyp blend with only 20% Prop, I wonder whether daily Cyp injections have more variance than I always assumed.

I'm back on daily (100%) Cyp injections myself and was only going to test my 24h trough, but now I'll definitely do ~8h post injection as well (12h isn't possible based on lab opening times).

Being here I'm sure you've read the threads about supplementation of Progesterone and other neurosteroids (preg/DHEA), I might've asked you myself before and already forgotten, but have you ever tested your Prog/Preg/DHEA levels and tried supplementing any of those?

 

[BillyJ03z]

Thanks for the lab results. I'm surprised there's so much variation on the Cyp blend with only 20% Prop, I wonder whether daily Cyp injections have more variance than I always assumed.

I'm back on daily (100%) Cyp injections myself and was only going to test my 24h trough, but now I'll definitely do ~8h post injection as well (12h isn't possible based on lab opening times).

Being here I'm sure you've read the threads about supplementation of Progesterone and other neurosteroids (preg/DHEA), I might've asked you myself before and already forgotten, but have you ever tested your Prog/Preg/DHEA levels and tried supplementing any of those?

Yeah, I've tried preg, prog cream, dhea and had levels tested... I have some threads floating around where I posted labs. Never felt any positive benefits and the only negatives were sky rocketed E2 from the DHEA and bloating which I think came from both Preg/Dhea.... I'm currently back taking 25mg Preg (AM) and 25mg DHEA cream (AM).... too soon to see anything yet.

PS- In a few weeks I will be running labs again testing 10hr post and 24hr trough... I am currently on Cyp 20mg ED/SQ (minus ester is actually approx. 14mg pure test) along with .25mg arimidex 2xWk (m-th).....

Last time I tested trough for 20mg Cyp ED/SQ it was following:
Test Cyp @ 20mg ED/SQ (24 hr-Trough)

Testosterone Total-Male

609.0 ng/dL

300.0 - 890.0 ng/dL

Free Testosterone

168.7 pg/mL

47.0 - 244.0 pg/mL

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin

21 nmol/L

11 - 80 nmol/L

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**So in a few weeks I will test the 24hr trough and 10hr post inject for Test Cyp and if my FT/TT levels come back saying it's 20 - 30% higher at 10hrs/peak then maybe ED injects of Test Cyp at night would be the way to go. I would want my trough at night and peak in the AM...

 

[Willyt]

Couldn't really tell the difference on either because my sleep is so bad .... I have literally been sleep deprived the entire 12 plus years I have been on TRT.

My sleep really suffers when T levels get too high. Its the main reason I stay at lower levels of 8mg daily subq with Enanrop blend

 

[SSHSSA74]

My sleep really suffers when T levels get too high. Its the main reason I stay at lower levels of 8mg daily subq with Enanrop blend

Where do u get Enan/Prop blend? I hate cyp.

 

[Willyt]

Blend my own per thread below. Easy to do with sterile vials once you get hang of it. Last me for at least 2 months, but I am dosing small amounts daily. Tougher part is making sure you have Enan and Prop on hand (mine from Defy)

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

I have been having some success with low dose daily propionate for the last several months. Dose levels have ranged from 8-10 mg injected every morning after waking. Overall, it has been a far better experience than my previous cypionate protocol of 80-100 per week (split every 3.5 days)...

www.excelmale.com

 

[bixt]

I'm back on daily (100%) Cyp injections myself and was only going to test my 24h trough, but now I'll definitely do ~8h post injection as well

Excellent, I can't wait!

 

[SSHSSA74]

Blend my own per thread below. Easy to do with sterile vials once you get hang of it. Last me for at least 2 months, but I am dosing small amounts daily. Tougher part is making sure you have Enan and Prop on hand (mine from Defy)

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

I have been having some success with low dose daily propionate for the last several months. Dose levels have ranged from 8-10 mg injected every morning after waking. Overall, it has been a far better experience than my previous cypionate protocol of 80-100 per week (split every 3.5 days)...

www.excelmale.com

Cool thanks!

 

[BillyJ03z]

I tried going low dose Cypionate @ 12mg ED/SQ and here were my results....
I believe they seem too low for trough compared with the labs I posted with Cyp @ 20mg ED/SQ on my post #105)... and I'm wondering if I should move to a low dose 50Cyp/50Prop blend or a 70Cyp/30Prop blend?

Component	Your Value	Standard Range	Flag
Testosterone, Male	417.6 ng/dL	280.0 - 1,100.0 ng/dL
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin	14 nmol/L	11 - 80 nmol/L
Testosterone, Free	113 pg/mL	47 - 244 pg/mL
Testosterone, Percent Free	2.7 %	1.6 - 2.9 %
Testosterone, Bioavailable	305 ng/dL	131 - 682 ng/dL

​

 

[Willyt]

I tried going low dose Cypionate @ 12mg ED/SQ and here were my results....
I believe they seem too low for trough compared with the labs I posted with Cyp @ 20mg ED/SQ on my post #105)... and I'm wondering if I should move to a low dose 50Cyp/50Prop blend or a 70Cyp/30Prop blend?

Component	Your Value	Standard Range	Flag
Testosterone, Male	417.6 ng/dL	280.0 - 1,100.0 ng/dL
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin	14 nmol/L	11 - 80 nmol/L
Testosterone, Free	113 pg/mL	47 - 244 pg/mL
Testosterone, Percent Free	2.7 %	1.6 - 2.9 %
Testosterone, Bioavailable	305 ng/dL	131 - 682 ng/dL

​

Did you sleep any better on the lower dose?

 

[BillyJ03z]

Did you sleep any better on the lower dose?

NOPE! My sleep is so screwed up.... If I don't use Ambien to fall asleep then I'm up into the late late night... and If I do manage to fall asleep I'm always waking up at 2 or 3am.... I started taking ashwagandha root about 2 weeks ago to help lower night time cortisol but I haven't really seen any benefits.... I wish I never started TRT...

About a week ago I started a moderate high protein/low carb diet and I have been forcing myself to seriously workout back in the gym... I'm 6'1, 230, and trying to get back to 195-205lb range (I was naturally 190 prior to trt).... I'm hoping this will help the TRT induced sleep apnea and keep estrogen in check... This is probably my last year on TRT and if I can't get any noticeable improvement then I am going to come off trt. I'm 48 and would like live a little before I drop dead of a heartache or from sleep deprivation.

 

[SSHSSA74]

NOPE! My sleep is so screwed up.... If I don't use Ambien to fall asleep then I'm up into the late late night... and If I do manage to fall asleep I'm always waking up at 2 or 3am.... I started taking ashwagandha root about 2 weeks ago to help lower night time cortisol but I haven't really seen any benefits.... I wish I never started TRT...

About a week ago I started a moderate high protein/low carb diet and I have been forcing myself to seriously workout back in the gym... I'm 6'1, 230, and trying to get back to 195-205lb range (I was naturally 190 prior to trt).... I'm hoping this will help the TRT induced sleep apnea and keep estrogen in check... This is probably my last year on TRT and if I can't get any noticeable improvement then I am going to come off trt. I'm 48 and would like live a little before I drop dead of a heartache or from sleep deprivation.

Dang man. Sorry to hear this. That sucks. I sleep like shit too but not nearly this badly. I hope you get it figured out.

 

[BillyJ03z]

Dang man. Sorry to hear this. That sucks. I sleep like shit too but not nearly this badly. I hope you get it figured out.

Yeah, it really sucks... The sleep issues are making it tough...

 

[GreenMachineX]

NOPE! My sleep is so screwed up.... If I don't use Ambien to fall asleep then I'm up into the late late night... and If I do manage to fall asleep I'm always waking up at 2 or 3am.... I started taking ashwagandha root about 2 weeks ago to help lower night time cortisol but I haven't really seen any benefits.... I wish I never started TRT...

About a week ago I started a moderate high protein/low carb diet and I have been forcing myself to seriously workout back in the gym... I'm 6'1, 230, and trying to get back to 195-205lb range (I was naturally 190 prior to trt).... I'm hoping this will help the TRT induced sleep apnea and keep estrogen in check... This is probably my last year on TRT and if I can't get any noticeable improvement then I am going to come off trt. I'm 48 and would like live a little before I drop dead of a heartache or from sleep deprivation.

When you wake up at 2 or 3am, are you stuck awake the rest of the night? That's me right now.

 

[BillyJ03z]

When you wake up at 2 or 3am, are you stuck awake the rest of the night? That's me right now.

It depends.... Sometimes when I wake up at 2 or 3 then I'm up no matter what... Sometimes when I wake up at 2 or 3, I may be able to fall back asleep but it is all broken the rest of the way (waking up every hour there after)... If I wake up at 2-3 and go to the bathroom, I can't have any distractions otherwise I'm not getting back to sleep and I'm up.... but sometimes just getting out of bed to go to the bathroom wakes me up and then Im up..... But to answer your question directly, Yes, for I went through the phase for a few years where I woke every night like clockwork at 2-3 and not be able to fall back asleep. I still don't know the reason for it... but right now for the last few years I wake up consistently between 2:45-3am, it's uncanny.... smh

 

[GreenMachineX]

It depends.... Sometimes when I wake up at 2 or 3 then I'm up no matter what... Sometimes when I wake up at 2 or 3, I may be able to fall back asleep but it is all broken the rest of the way (waking up every hour there after)... If I wake up at 2-3 and go to the bathroom, I can't have any distractions otherwise I'm not getting back to sleep and I'm up.... but sometimes just getting out of bed to go to the bathroom wakes me up and then Im up..... But to answer your question directly, Yes, for I went through the phase for a few years where I woke every night like clockwork at 2-3 and not be able to fall back asleep. I still don't know the reason for it... but right now for the last few years I wake up consistently between 2:45-3am, it's uncanny.... smh

Same here. Hoping trazodone takes care of it tonight for me.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Here's another data point for you: MK677 - not mentioned too much except in passing in the above linked thread. But my cousin is blasting a lot of things as well as using 20mg of UGL MK daily. He is using it for the "side effect" grelin receptor agonist properties (i.e. insane hunger to bulk). But coincidently he says he sleeps like a baby.

From Wikipedia:

"Effect on sleep architecture"​

"In a small study of 14 subjects, MK-677 dosed at 25mg/day at bedtime was shown to increase REM sleep by 20% and 50% in young and older subjects respectively.[16] Treatment with MK-677 also resulted in an approximate 50% increase in stage IV sleep in young subjects"



My comment and comparison to benzos: On paper this appears to be better than even benzos! Benzos increase stage 1 and 2, they increase the time spent (latency) to REM as well. They do not do much for deep sleep (stage 3 & 4) as far as duration goes. Also the amplitude (height in a chart) of the slow waves are lower, per EEG.

Now MK-677 increases deep steep (stage 4) for 50% and looks like a winner on paper.

Get some. It seems to have been forgotten in light of the price being 3/4 to that of actual GH in North America (from what I read on PM). So most people don't bother and use actual GH. In my part of the world, a packet of 50 tabs of 10mg MK is roughly 1/10th the price of 100IUs of dubious quality GH.

Tell me more, pros and cons. Did some reading about it. The improvement in stage 4 sleep is what interests me. Been on clonazempam for 16 years, related to sleep problems from bipolar illness. That alone might preclude using MK-677 but I've been a lab rat for my doctors for almost two decades, so not reluctant to experiment. The other nootropic I've read about is methylene blue. I clearly want to get off of the benzo. I know that it can cause or contribute to ED. Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[bixt]

Tell me more, pros and cons. Did some reading about it. The improvement in stage 4 sleep is what interests me. Been on clonazempam for 16 years, related to sleep problems from bipolar illness. That alone might preclude using MK-677 but I've been a lab rat for my doctors for almost two decades, so not reluctant to experiment. The other nootropic I've read about is methylene blue. I clearly want to get off of the benzo. I know that it can cause or contribute to ED. Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated. Thanks.

MK677 Pros:
1. GH secretagogue AND Somatostatin inhibiter (Increased endogenous GH secretion)
2. 50% increase in SWS (slow wave sleep - restorative stage 3 & 4 sleep)
3. Hunger via its grelin receptor agonism (pro only if bulking \ underweight)

MK677 Cons:
1. Hunger via its grelin receptor agonism (con if the goal is cutting or overweight)
2. Potential minor prolactin increase
3. Possible bloat and water retention


In my opinion it's not going to work at all for sleep if you are currently hooked on benzos. Its not a sleep med, but a sleep improver - if you could get to sleep in the first place. It will improve your sleep if you were to wean off the benzos, a long long painful process which is out of scope of this topic.

I have no idea why but benzos (Valium, long half life) give me ED for 2 days or so. I use benzos very occasionally. This benzo ED completely negates any erection benefit from Prop I have written about previously on this thread.

Methylene blue - I have used this extensively years ago when trying to combat systemic candidiasis. It made my pee blue but that was it. I see now that there is an active reddit community about its alleged nootropic benefits, but I experienced none of that.