Never tried subQ in the 10 years I’ve been on HRT. Only IM. And ya before those labs I had tried 147mg of prop per week, as well as 122mg of prop per week. Just never felt great on prop for whatever reason. Just figured it was due to my test levels spiking and declining very quickly, and my E2 levels remaining elevated most of the time, and just not having the best test to E2 ratio a good portion of the week, or the majority of the week. Ran prop by itself for around 7 months total
T Propionate protocol
- Thread starter goga
- Start date
Actually, a TT trough that's 40% off of the daily peak is within the bounds of normal physiology, albeit at the high end. This variation is what I target with my propionate blend. Your results suggest slower absorption than what I experience. With propionate alone I tend to see a peak-trough drop of more like 66%, e.g. 1,000 ng/dL peak and 333 ng/dL trough.
Interesting. Intuitively it makes sense to me that you would see more variation on average with higher Test levels, so maybe this isn't so bad after all.
What do you think about the 50% drop in Free T levels?
You explained in another post why and how a certain dose affects the effective half-life of esterified Testosterone, whereby higher doses extend the half-life. Would you expect a noticeable difference in TT levels variation between 10 and 15mg/day?
I remember your mentioning such huge drops, and you were doing subQ also right? Did you actually do labs for both peak and trough? I think I remember you approximated peak levels based on a model you came up with.
Is it possible that 5 hours post injection wasn't my peak? I'm sure of the blood drawing times relative to injection time.
Its highly likely we will never know.
Unless hourly blood draws are done (and labelled correctly), we are taking guesses as to the ramp up, time to peak, peak levels, duration of peak, slope of drop off to trough with regards to "prop subq".
The difference relative to TT seems suspect. Intra-day variation in SHBG is pretty small, and propionate is delivering testosterone pretty steadily—i.e. without large fluctuations that would appear to momentarily decouple FT from TT. Do the measurements use equilibrium dialysis?
The area under the curve is going to be 50% higher at the higher dose. I'm not sure how much the apparent half life would be affected. It might not be too noticeable at these lower doses.
I have only injected subQ. I have not attempted to measure both peak and trough levels in one injection cycle. However, I have accumulated a fair number of individual measurements from various cycles. Basic modeling suggested that measurements about three hours post-injection were consistent with the predicted peak for the dose. However, more recently I took measurements at five and six hours post-injection. These were also in the ball park of predicted peak levels, suggesting more of a plateau before levels begin to decline appreciably. It's plausible that pure propionate produces an earlier and sharper peak than the blend I'm using. As @bixt says, it's hard to know exactly what's going on without having hourly values.
Yes, and LC/MS for TT and ultra-sensitive for E2.
I'm going to give 15mg/day subQ a try and also do labs for the same peak and trough times. I'll post them here, it'll be interesting to see whether the effective half-life is affected.
Agreed, hourly values would be ideal but unfortunately not realistically feasible for me right now. It does seem unlikely though that the true peak would be significantly higher than the 5 hours post injection value I got
T
tareload
Guest
Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.
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See attached. Close enough. Your testing is studly. Mad props!
Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.
See attached. Close enough. Your testing is studly. Mad props!
Thank you! I was actually looking for that post of yours the other day.
Going forward I'm going to systematically test peak and trough levels.
I also started a spreadsheet in which I record all my symptoms daily (mood, erection quality, libido, drive, mental clarity, gym performance, etc...).
I should've done that from the start but I could've never anticipated it would be so hard to get fine tuned. At this point it's become clear to me that I need to be much more systematic in my data gathering process, which will allow me to run interesting models/analyses later on and hopefully converge onto better solutions.
Hello Everyone,
I`m new here. I`ve been reading this thread with great interest and I am particularly curious about why the T-Prop Protocol appears to yield improvements to libido and erection quality. Does anyone have an opinion on why this might be the case over Ent or Cyp. Also, how long did it take for folks to get dialled in on this Protocol?
I`ve had a particularly bad time on Cyp whereby I had a very high E2 spike which caused ED and despite subsequently dialling in of E2 just never seemed to regain EQ.
Also, would this protocol be unsuitable for higher doses of say 50mg/day? would the daily swings cause excessive E2 buildup?
Cheers,
Frodo
I`m new here. I`ve been reading this thread with great interest and I am particularly curious about why the T-Prop Protocol appears to yield improvements to libido and erection quality. Does anyone have an opinion on why this might be the case over Ent or Cyp. Also, how long did it take for folks to get dialled in on this Protocol?
I`ve had a particularly bad time on Cyp whereby I had a very high E2 spike which caused ED and despite subsequently dialling in of E2 just never seemed to regain EQ.
Also, would this protocol be unsuitable for higher doses of say 50mg/day? would the daily swings cause excessive E2 buildup?
Cheers,
Frodo
madman
Super Moderator
A piece of advice.
Ask for feedback from members that have stuck with such protocol for 8-12 weeks.
Or better yet how was their libido/erectile function 12 weeks in?
50 mg day TP (350 mg T/week) is overkill, to say the least, and such dose has absolutely nothing to do with TRT/HRT.
Just to be clear this is a men's health/HRT forum.
For what it's worth, today marks around 12 weeks of me using prop.
Yes, if you read my story on page 2 (post #36) of this thread, I have on occasion strayed from the usual daily regimen. But I would say 90%+ of the days in the first 10 weeks were 20mg prop daily subq (140mg week) in the AM. Past 2 weeks were 105mg (15mg daily). As of today, I have dropped to 10mg daily AM for the foreseeable future.
Things are still rock hard. Sleep is still shitty.
One last thing - on four days randomly (not recurring days) recently I have popped 5mg generic Valium (diazepam) out of sheer desperation. Sleep was good, but erections went soft the next 24 hours or so. Thereafter things go rock solid titanium again - along with the return of crappy sleep. Just going to keep dropping the prop dose as time goes on and see what happens.
Yes, if you read my story on page 2 (post #36) of this thread, I have on occasion strayed from the usual daily regimen. But I would say 90%+ of the days in the first 10 weeks were 20mg prop daily subq (140mg week) in the AM. Past 2 weeks were 105mg (15mg daily). As of today, I have dropped to 10mg daily AM for the foreseeable future.
Things are still rock hard. Sleep is still shitty.
One last thing - on four days randomly (not recurring days) recently I have popped 5mg generic Valium (diazepam) out of sheer desperation. Sleep was good, but erections went soft the next 24 hours or so. Thereafter things go rock solid titanium again - along with the return of crappy sleep. Just going to keep dropping the prop dose as time goes on and see what happens.
One last thing - please nobody try this or get any ideas. Benzos are not part of any TRT or even TOT protocol. I was merely testing, and that test is over. There is no such thing as fixing a potent high dose protocol using benzos to fix the sides.
Thanks for the advice - I meant no disrespect, just going through a lot of frustration trying to get on the straight and narrow. Also, the 350mg per week question came from something I read elsewhere. Anyways, my interest is TRT and whatever it takes to get dialed in.
Thanks Bixt for your response - I`ve been reading a lot - which can sometimes be more confusing than clarifying. The thing I like about this protocol is how the prop will leave your system pretty quickly if you want to do a reset. So, I`m very interested in giving it a try.
I was on Cyp and no AI when I realised that I aromatize like crazy and haven`t been able to get the solid titanium back since (3 months ago) - not sure why but will try anything to fix it.
Regarding your sleep issue - I did read that a number of people had good experience with progesterone cream applied in the evening time. I know it`s adding another factor into your biochemistry which may be an overcomplications but it might be easier on your system than benzos.
Thanks again for your help!
Prop clears the system quickly, and has much lower troughs. maybe larger doses of prop could get some guys through the night without test levels dropping too low?? Just a thought. Larger injection volume slows down the absorption as well. Half milliliter daily is gonna get old though.
madman
Super Moderator
Injecting 30 mg TP (210 mg T/week) daily would be overkill for most!
ANDRODERM® (TDS)
https://www.androderm.com/about-androderm ANDRODERM® (testosterone transdermal system) is designed to deliver testosterone continuously for 24 hours following application to intact, non-scrotal skin (e.g., back, abdomen, thighs, upper arms). Four strengths of ANDRODERM® are available that...
www.excelmale.com
Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?
@Cataceous, as you know, I am interested in following your logic. I am currently not on either ester. I was planning on starting both esters simultaneously. As I read your post above, however, it sounds like you did this one ester at a time until you started the blend. Was this by design or were...
www.excelmale.com
Thank you for your tip. I will be sure to try this at some point as soon as I can get my hands on some.
The drop to 10mg is going to help the most. At least you know your outer limits now.
It makes you wonder how the AAS guys take such large prop doses and still sleep.
So, I took the plunge and I have begun a T-Prop protocol as follows: 15mg ED IM and 250iu HCG E3.5D. I can definitely feel the rush 1-2hrs after pinning - it can feel a bit like a "high" but I`m not sure I fully like that. I think if I can get dialled in I would optimize things with the blended formulation.
My TT is currently 780ng/dl and Free T is above range at 105 pmol/l (range 23.5 - 99.4 pmol/l) and E2 (non-sensitive) is 29.9pg/ml. All other blood markers look nominal and BP is normal.
What I`m hoping to get out of this is less drift in my E2 and thus more stable libido and hopefully a resolution to my intermittant ED. For those of you who have had a good experience on the T-Prop protocol, how long did it take for things to feel better?
My TT is currently 780ng/dl and Free T is above range at 105 pmol/l (range 23.5 - 99.4 pmol/l) and E2 (non-sensitive) is 29.9pg/ml. All other blood markers look nominal and BP is normal.
What I`m hoping to get out of this is less drift in my E2 and thus more stable libido and hopefully a resolution to my intermittant ED. For those of you who have had a good experience on the T-Prop protocol, how long did it take for things to feel better?
Where is your shbg?
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