Nandrolone for Mood | Feeling much Better..

[bixt]

I think they all contribute some really good things to the field overall, but u unfortunately have to take certain things they all say with a grain of salt,

@readalot, lets go with @Gman86 here. Let's critically listen to everything these guys say, and use what's good (if any), discard what's bad. There may be some good in their works, doesn't mean we should not benefit from those things because of the other crap they speak. (I'm not throwing myself into the ring today though and giving examples).

I navigate steroid forums for information in this manner. You have to pick up data and anecdotes from everywhere. Look for patterns and commonalities, discard noise, check the science and then see what best "fits" your outcome.

Really, everything does not match up with science. For example, go look at people's experience's with NPP vs Deca. Nandrolone is just nandrolone right? Wrong. Totally different results. It can't be 99% of all those people are wrong.

Sometimes we figure things out anecdotally, and then the science will catch up one day.

 

[Gman86]

@readalot, lets go with @Gman86 here. Let's critically listen to everything these guys say, and use what's good (if any), discard what's bad. There may be some good in their works, doesn't mean we should not benefit from those things because of the other crap they speak. (I'm not throwing myself into the ring today though and giving examples).

I navigate steroid forums for information in this manner. You have to pick up data and anecdotes from everywhere. Look for patterns and commonalities, discard noise, check the science and then see what best "fits" your outcome.

Really, everything does not match up with science. For example, go look at people's experience's with NPP vs Deca. Nandrolone is just nandrolone right? Wrong. Totally different results. It can't be 99% of all those people are wrong.

Sometimes we figure things out anecdotally, and then the science will catch up one day.

Very well said! Basically my exact thoughts. This is exactly how I approach this stuff. It’s the same with learning about anything. Take diet, for example. I subscribe to carnivore channels on YouTube, as well as raw vegan and fruitarian channels. I want to hear what everyone has to say that seems to be doing well and thinks they’ve figured things out. Doesn’t mean I agree with everything all these people have to say. Like u said, it’s all about spotting commonalities and patterns, putting everything through the data base in ur mind that u have up until this point, using some common sense and whatever critical thinking skills that u have, and figuring out what to take away and what to leave. But the most important thing is to at least hear all sides, and see if there’s anything good to be taken away from them. U said it perfectly. Science doesn’t always translate into real world results, and the anecdotes we see reported over and over and over. People aren’t supposed to feel a lot better on NPP, and have less sides, most of the time. But there’s just way too many anecdotes out there to argue it at this point. Danny bossa and that whole channel says that the science says that there’s basically never a time where a man should ever use an ai. But there’s thousands of anecdotes out there about guys feeling like crap on HRT, implementing an ai, and everything improving. Same with diet. I personally feel like a mostly carnivore diet, or a fully carnivore diet, is the most optimal diet a human can do to function at their best and feel their best. But there’s thousands of anecdotes out there of fruitarians and raw vegans feeling absolutely amazing and curing all sorts of diseases. And there’s definitely a lot of the enecdotes that I firmly believe. Can I explain how a carnivore diet as well as a fruitarian/ raw vegan diet can both have such amazing results, when they’re both extremely different? Not really lol. Still trying to figure out how that’s possible. But I do believe that it is the case. Don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but i just think the main thing is listening to everyone and what they have to say, good or bad, and just making sure we keep the discussions and debates as healthy as possible, and just try to learn as much as we can from one another, instead of judging and breaking down others. Most of us are in this for the same reasons, and usually with the same goals

 

[Fortunate]

@readalot, lets go with @Gman86 here. Let's critically listen to everything these guys say, and use what's good (if any), discard what's bad. There may be some good in their works, doesn't mean we should not benefit from those things because of the other crap they speak. (I'm not throwing myself into the ring today though and giving examples).

I navigate steroid forums for information in this manner. You have to pick up data and anecdotes from everywhere. Look for patterns and commonalities, discard noise, check the science and then see what best "fits" your outcome.

Really, everything does not match up with science. For example, go look at people's experience's with NPP vs Deca. Nandrolone is just nandrolone right? Wrong. Totally different results. It can't be 99% of all those people are wrong.

Sometimes we figure things out anecdotally, and then the science will catch up one day.

I do believe we should all listen to each other. No question. I have learned that in the world of hormones, anecdotal feedback can be useful. But, I also believe it is dangerous tell people that polycythemia is no big deal and can be safely ignored. @Gman86, I do love your vibe. Lots of positivity and I appreciate your willingness to help guys here, but I firmly disagree with blowing off polycythemia.

 

[tareload]

I do believe we should all listen to each other. No question. I have learned that in the world of hormones, anecdotal feedback can be useful. But, I also believe it is dangerous tell people that polycythemia is no big deal and can be safely ignored. @Gman86, I do love your vibe. Lots of positivity and I appreciate your willingness to help guys here, but I firmly disagree with blowing off polycythemia.

Polycythemia vs erythrocytosis:

Normal Dose Test or Low Dose Test+ Anadrol

Ref: Erythrocytosis is defined as an increase in red blood cell (RBC) mass, usually absolute , and is also associated with an increased hematocrit (HCT) and hemoglobin concentration. Although some use the term polycythemia interchangeably with erythrocytosis, the two are not...

forums.t-nation.com

Erythrocytosis | eClinpath

Erythrocytosis is defined as an increase in red blood cell (RBC) mass, usually absolute, and is also associated with an increased hematocrit (HCT) and hemoglobin concentration. Although some use the term polycythemia interchangeably with erythrocytosis, the two are not synonymous. Polycythemia...

eclinpath.com

Erythrocytosis is defined as an increase in red blood cell (RBC) mass, usually absolute , and is also associated with an increased hematocrit (HCT) and hemoglobin concentration. Although some use the term polycythemia interchangeably with erythrocytosis, the two are not synonymous. Polycythemia in precise terms refers to an increased number of any hematopoietic cell in blood, be it RBCs, platelets or leukocytes. An increase in RBC number (whether relative to changes in body water or an absolute increase in RBC mass) is more precisely called erythrocythemia, but this term is not in general use and we are currently using the term erythrocytosis instead of polycythemia for an increase in RBCs (relative or absolute). Complicating matters is the term polycythemia vera, which specifically refers to a type of chronic myeloid leukemia that only affects the erythroid lineage or, in other words, a chronic erythroid leukemia.

Benefits of Estrogen for TRT Patients

Because that’s what is happening with docs who prescribe phlebotomies. This is where it came from. You recognize the difference that’s good.

forums.t-nation.com

Many clinicians don't use the terms correctly.

FYI for the interested reader:
If you want to search for any terms with my handle you will need to use the @ symbol at TNation as my account has been deactivated. Hence, the search filter window will not work...

Comments below NEVER addressed in any video up above:

Benefits of Estrogen for TRT Patients

Thanks for sharing his response. Very smooth, I give you guys credit for trying to steer the debate towards terms that may be favorable to your position, regardless of what the other person has said. I can give uneducated folks a pass since they don’t know any better but for an educated person...

forums.t-nation.com

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Hi ExcelMale folks, I wanted to start off by expressing my gratitude for this site, all of the amazing work that has been put in to make this place such a great source of information. I would expect no less from a chemical engineer :). I've been following this "debate" about how to properly...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

Don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but i just think the main thing is listening to everyone and what they have to say, good or bad, and just making sure we keep the discussions and debates as healthy as possible, and just try to learn as much as we can from one another, instead of judging and breaking down others.

Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughts. Regarding bold, I agree I should not beat on laypeople. However, a person with an MD/DO and clinical training/experience has a very different standard than a dude off the street coming here to learn. Blanket advice / ABSOLUTEs given by the former to the latter IS dangerous/reckless (e.g., second video shared above and frankly all the videos shared above). They instill FALSE confidence for the ignorant and casual viewer. It is NOT ok.

Best.

 

[tareload]

TOO MUCH TESTOSTERONE CAN MAKE IT HARD TO BREATHE

 

[tareload]

Primary and secondary erythrocytosis

The term “polycythemia,” particularly as it pertains to newborns and children, should be more accurately termed erythrocytosis because it generally re…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Fortunate]

Polycythemia vs erythrocytosis:

Normal Dose Test or Low Dose Test+ Anadrol

Ref: Erythrocytosis is defined as an increase in red blood cell (RBC) mass, usually absolute , and is also associated with an increased hematocrit (HCT) and hemoglobin concentration. Although some use the term polycythemia interchangeably with erythrocytosis, the two are not...

forums.t-nation.com

Erythrocytosis | eClinpath

Erythrocytosis is defined as an increase in red blood cell (RBC) mass, usually absolute, and is also associated with an increased hematocrit (HCT) and hemoglobin concentration. Although some use the term polycythemia interchangeably with erythrocytosis, the two are not synonymous. Polycythemia...

eclinpath.com

Erythrocytosis is defined as an increase in red blood cell (RBC) mass, usually absolute , and is also associated with an increased hematocrit (HCT) and hemoglobin concentration. Although some use the term polycythemia interchangeably with erythrocytosis, the two are not synonymous. Polycythemia in precise terms refers to an increased number of any hematopoietic cell in blood, be it RBCs, platelets or leukocytes. An increase in RBC number (whether relative to changes in body water or an absolute increase in RBC mass) is more precisely called erythrocythemia, but this term is not in general use and we are currently using the term erythrocytosis instead of polycythemia for an increase in RBCs (relative or absolute). Complicating matters is the term polycythemia vera, which specifically refers to a type of chronic myeloid leukemia that only affects the erythroid lineage or, in other words, a chronic erythroid leukemia.

Benefits of Estrogen for TRT Patients

Because that’s what is happening with docs who prescribe phlebotomies. This is where it came from. You recognize the difference that’s good.

forums.t-nation.com

Many clinicians don't use the terms correctly.

FYI for the interested reader:
If you want to search for any terms with my handle you will need to use the @ symbol at TNation as my account has been deactivated. Hence, the search filter window will not work...

View attachment 27668

Comments below NEVER addressed in any video up above:

Benefits of Estrogen for TRT Patients

Thanks for sharing his response. Very smooth, I give you guys credit for trying to steer the debate towards terms that may be favorable to your position, regardless of what the other person has said. I can give uneducated folks a pass since they don’t know any better but for an educated person...

forums.t-nation.com

View attachment 27669

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Hi ExcelMale folks, I wanted to start off by expressing my gratitude for this site, all of the amazing work that has been put in to make this place such a great source of information. I would expect no less from a chemical engineer :). I've been following this "debate" about how to properly...

www.excelmale.com

Correct - erythrocytosis would be the more appropriate term to use. That said, same message. Thanks, brother

 

[Gman86]

I do believe we should all listen to each other. No question. I have learned that in the world of hormones, anecdotal feedback can be useful. But, I also believe it is dangerous tell people that polycythemia is no big deal and can be safely ignored. @Gman86, I do love your vibe. Lots of positivity and I appreciate your willingness to help guys here, but I firmly disagree with blowing off polycythemia.

Oh I firmly believe blowing off erythrocytosis is irresponsible as well. I just think there’s varying opinions on what a “high concentration of RBC’s to the point that it’s detrimental to someone’s health” is. HCT is just a ratio of RBC’s to the volume of someone’s blood, so that can always be improved and worsened by hydration status. So if someone isn’t having symptoms of high RBC’s, their platelets aren’t too high, and they’re vitals are all within range, I wouldn’t personally be worried if my HCT and HGB came back at his levels. But he did almost have a HCT of 54, which is on the higher end, even for my standards, so if I were him I would have donated like he did, but wouldn’t have stopped the protocol that he was on simply because of having those HCT and HGB levels, considering he felt good in all areas.

It’s the same with total test levels. Some people think a total T level of over 1500 is detrimental to a man’s health long term, while people like me don’t think that at all for most guys. It’s impossible to say one view is correct over the other. Since male HRT is still a relatively new field of medicine, a lot of it is going to be a matter of opinion, unfortunately. Just is what it is at this stage

 

[Gman86]

Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughts. Regarding bold, I agree I should not beat on laypeople. However, a person with an MD/DO and clinical training/experience has a very different standard than a dude off the street coming here to learn. Blanket advice / ABSOLUTEs given by the former to the latter IS dangerous/reckless (e.g., second video shared above and frankly all the videos shared above). They instill FALSE confidence for the ignorant and casual viewer. It is NOT ok.

Best.

I definitely agree with u, in regards to rarely ever speaking in absolutes when it comes to this stuff

 

[tareload]

Oh I firmly believe blowing off polycythemia is irresponsible as well. I just think there’s varying opinions on what a “high concentration of RBC’s to the point that it’s detrimental to someone’s health” is. HCT is just a ratio of RBC’s to the volume of someone’s blood, so that can always be improved and worsened by hydration status. So if someone isn’t having symptoms of high RBC’s, their platelets aren’t too high, and they’re vitals are all within range, I wouldn’t personally be worried if my HCT and HGB came back at his levels. But he did almost have a HCT of 54, which is on the higher end, even for my standards, so if I were him I would have donated like he did, but wouldn’t have stopped the protocol that he was on simply because of having those HCT and HGB levels, considering he felt good in all areas.

It’s the same with total test levels. Some people think a total T level of over 1500 is detrimental to a man’s health long term, while people like me don’t think that at all for most guys. It’s impossible to say one view is correct over the other. Since male HRT is still a relatively new field of medicine, a lot of it is going to be a matter of opinion, unfortunately. Just is what it is at this stage

See posts above...

finger pointing up emoji

 

[Gman86]

See posts above...

finger pointing up emoji

Edited it, thank u

 

[tareload]

Edited it, thank u

Thank you. Doing this is important because then regular guys won't confuse with polycythemia vera (PCV) and then be more confused with all the videos that further set up straw man arguments about erythrocytosis vs PCV.

I will repeat. Clotting is not the only or even primary concern with elevated Hct on TRT. It is extra work load on cardiovascular system for compromised individuals. Hct apologists only talk about clotting being overblown and never address viscosity.

Thanks again.

More info...

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Hi ExcelMale folks, I wanted to start off by expressing my gratitude for this site, all of the amazing work that has been put in to make this place such a great source of information. I would expect no less from a chemical engineer :). I've been following this "debate" about how to properly...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Gman86]

Thank you. Doing this is important because then regular guys won't confuse with polycythemia vera (PCV) and then be more confused with all the videos that further set up straw man arguments about erythrocytosis vs PCV.

I will repeat. Clotting is not the only or even primary concern with elevated Hct on TRT. It is extra work load on cardiovascular system for compromised individuals. Hct apologists only talk about clotting being overblown and never address viscosity.

Thanks again.


View attachment 27675


More info...

Hematocrit drives Blood Viscosity- Does that Matter in Men on TRT? Effect of Altitude?

Hi ExcelMale folks, I wanted to start off by expressing my gratitude for this site, all of the amazing work that has been put in to make this place such a great source of information. I would expect no less from a chemical engineer :). I've been following this "debate" about how to properly...

www.excelmale.com

Good point about the extra work load on organs like the heart and kidneys. What are the risks of having high HGB? I’m sure there have to be some.

 

[tareload]

HGB

Managed hematocrit but not hemoglobin?

After I found out a good dose and managed my hematocrit I am facing now another issue. Hemoglobin increases and went up to 17.4 I just donated to take it down. I want it to be around 15.5 what do you guys do regarding increases in hemoglobin?? I don’t see a lot of thread about it as much as...

www.excelmale.com

Managed hematocrit but not hemoglobin?

After I found out a good dose and managed my hematocrit I am facing now another issue. Hemoglobin increases and went up to 17.4 I just donated to take it down. I want it to be around 15.5 what do you guys do regarding increases in hemoglobin?? I don’t see a lot of thread about it as much as...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Jerajera]

Thank you for taking the time to write your thoughts. Regarding bold, I agree I should not beat on laypeople. However, a person with an MD/DO and clinical training/experience has a very different standard than a dude off the street coming here to learn. Blanket advice / ABSOLUTEs given by the former to the latter IS dangerous/reckless (e.g., second video shared above and frankly all the videos shared above). They instill FALSE confidence for the ignorant and casual viewer. It is NOT ok

Completely agree with this. Forum members who speak and give potentially life changing/threatening advice hyper confidently based on a completely superficial and misguided understanding of this field are already dangerous because most people are wired to conflate confidence and knowledge.

But doctors and medical practitioners in general carry such (unwarranted in most cases) authority that their speaking so confidently in absolutes is extremely dangerous, as most people will not go through the trouble of doing their own research, and most of them don't even have the background or intellectual capacity to do so in the first place.

I've seen supposed scientists claim that a certain research paper "proves" a certain hypothesis. Anyone who uses the concept of proof in the context of science and not mathematics should have their license immediately revoked, as it means they're lacking the most basic and fundamental understanding of their own field and will almost certainly statistically speaking end up harming patients through hubris and intellectual laziness.

It's not just a question of semantics, it demonstrates a certain mindset to feel certainty based on little evidence in the face of infinite complexity. People like that should be avoided and systematically called out for the irresponsible idiots they are.

 

[Another Great Day]

Pitiful. Arrogant and reckless. Still boggles my mind how someone who is supposed to practice the 4 pillars of medical ethics can put out this information.

How do I vote "unlike" instead of "like"?

These guys can't claim ignorance so then what is left to explain the behavior? Impossible to combat the misinformation.

Bullshit asymmetry principle at work. I spent a good part of the last 4 years combating this garbage but to what end? Infinite headed hydra.

 

[Gman86]

@readalot quick question. If a person were to have a HCT of say 54, and then hydrate really well and get that down to say 51, total RBC count and HGB levels would remain the same still correct?

 

[tareload]

@readalot quick question. If a person were to have a HCT of say 54, and then hydrate really well and get that down to say 51, total RBC count and HGB levels would remain the same still correct?

No.

Hemoglobin and Hematocrit - Clinical Methods - NCBI Bookshelf

Both the hemoglobin and the hematocrit are based on whole blood and are therefore dependent on plasma volume. If a patient is severely dehydrated, the hemoglobin and hematocrit will appear higher than if the patient were normovolemic; if the patient is fluid overloaded, they will be lower than their actual level. To assess true red cell mass, independent radionuclide evaluation of the red cells and plasma (by 51Cr and 131I respectively) must be performed.

All these measurements are dependent on whole blood volume (blood volume in the denominator) and hence hydration status.

See links above as well....

Managed hematocrit but not hemoglobin?

After I found out a good dose and managed my hematocrit I am facing now another issue. Hemoglobin increases and went up to 17.4 I just donated to take it down. I want it to be around 15.5 what do you guys do regarding increases in hemoglobin?? I don’t see a lot of thread about it as much as...

www.excelmale.com

And I never get tired on this fantastic review article:

High HGB/HCT

One thing I don't understand is the relationship between RBCs, hemoglobin and hematocrit. If hct is hgb x3, but hematocrit is the thickness due to rbc concentration...what am I missing? Hematocrit is the packed spun volume of whole blood that is made up of RBCs and is expressed as a...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tareload]

Red blood cell indices - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Complete blood count - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hematology | Clinical Laboratory Science Resource

Normal Values and Basics

clsresource.com