I am pretty sure that’s what this case study illustrates: testosterone alone led to this gentleman’s cardiac issues.
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- Thread starter Thunderitout
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tareload
Guest
The case study lists T and two SERMs.
But as @DS3 states there may be other compounds in the case history.
T
tareload
Guest
Younger dude. Bad genes + high test = bad ride
What is TRT and What is NOT TRT
Yeah I guess you are right. This dude did not have a great ride though. Fortunately they caught him in time. Recent case report. Have a read. A 31-year-old male bodybuilder with no prior medical history presented with a 3-day history of chest pressure, shortness of breath, hemoptysis...
forums.t-nation.com
Heart Structural Changes from High Testosterone Levels
May 2022 case report. Or take @enackers claim that Test in any and all doses is harmless. Just be careful with cumulative dosages. I guess this dude’s heart receptors did not get your memo @enackers
forums.t-nation.com
Of course we will never know if what was listed is all he took. But check it out.
I don't recall if it was keith nichols or the other guy that was on jay campbell couple of years ago saying that if you're taking aas or big doses of testosterone you are just plain stupid if you are not taking ARBs or ACE inhibitors.Younger dude. Bad genes + high test = bad ride
What is TRT and What is NOT TRT
Yeah I guess you are right. This dude did not have a great ride though. Fortunately they caught him in time. Recent case report. Have a read. A 31-year-old male bodybuilder with no prior medical history presented with a 3-day history of chest pressure, shortness of breath, hemoptysis...
Heart Structural Changes from High Testosterone Levels
May 2022 case report. Or take @enackers claim that Test in any and all doses is harmless. Just be careful with cumulative dosages. I guess this dude’s heart receptors did not get your memo @enackers
Of course we will never know if what was listed is all he took. But check it out.
T
tareload
Guest
Touliatos. I remember that podcast and JC thought he was referring to statins. Pretty entertaining. Jay had no idea what he (Touliatos) was talking about.
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Poetdrifter
New Member
I started at 200mg Weekly in 2001 then Moved to 200mg every 10 days. Tried Using anastrozole and Aromasin as An AI, over the Years I Found that Pinning 40mg Test Cyp mixed with 20mg Nanadralone Phenylpropionate Every other day Keeps my Test Levels in High end normal Range between 630ng/dl and 690ng/dl and My Estrodial Levels in High end Normal Range, I actually feel better And Have better Overall sexdrive With A Higher Normal E2 level For Men. I eas Crashing My E2 or dropping it close to low end Normal and felt Rough, the Nandralone has helped With some Older Injuries and overall joint Pain from those Injuries. Whe. I switched to A More Even Lower Dosed Pinning schedule I felt Better And Didnr Need an AI to deal with fluctuations in Aromatization and I Ended Up Adding 10mg Pregnenolone daily it really Changed the anxiety and Depression I just couldn't shake Over the Years.. I believe the Lower Dose And Closer Dosing Schedule and Addition of the Pregnenolone is what Finally got me Balanced... and the right Doctor who said your Body Makes Steady Testosterone for the Most Part, not 100 of mgs at a time, so Let's try Spreading out the Dose and Lower it so it's steady, took a few Months to Level and stay Level and the NPP for My Joints along with the Adding of the Pregnenolone had Me feeling great Again and the Anxiety and Depression are gone finally...Finally.... For Now been Almost A Year on 10mg Pregnenolone daily and I'm fianlly steady at 47yrs Old. Maybe Lool into Pregnenolone for Some Of you, it Did Me A World Of Change...
Very interesting. What type of pregnenelone are you taking? Micronized? Standard? What brand? Thanks for sharing. You think the pregnenolone was the difference maker for anxiety and depression?
I just want to make sure I understood clearly. You're saying when you were 30yo and could tolerate Testosterone better, your Pregnenolone was mid-range. But now that you're 40yo and all your protocols fail eventually your Preg is at the bottom of the range?
Poetdrifter
New Member
No Jerajera,, Its Not My tolerance to The Testosterone and it was The aromitization of the Testosterone or into Estrodial I was Experiencing from 200mg Every 7 days. It was Aromatizing and Pushing my Estrodial Levels into high range. After A Couple years Of that up and Down, I switched to 200mg Every 10days and added Anastrozole 0.5mg every 4 days to manage The elevated Estrodial Levels I was Still having, which May have Been to much AI at the time.
for A Number Of Years I was on that Protocol and My Cholesterol levels were Changing as I Aged and the Anastrozole Was Effecting my Cholesterol levels negatively. So after Finding a New Endo who Knew A lot More About TRT/HRT and The different options Available today instead of just Throwing Me Kn 200mg Every 7 or 10 days and Saying I should be fine , he Talked Over Optikns and said he was having Better Success with other male clients With lower milligram and More Frequent injections Then on Large Amount At Once And it Tapering Uo and Down and Causing Me Side effects from the Aromatization. So I am Just tolerating 40mg Testosterone Cypionate Monday Evening/Wed Evening/Saturday Morning which is 120mg Every 7 Days at 40mg 3xs Weekly Better then I was tolerating 200mg Every 7days because I'm not Pushing A Larger 200mg Amount Into My Body at One Time and It Aromatizing at A higher Rate then putting Lower Amount Of Test Cyp jn and It Not Pushing me into A State Of Aromitization that causes Unwanted Side effects. My Test Levels stay More level like a Natural flow of Test than an unnatural amount Of 200mg at Once. Age Does Have Some to do with it Now that I'm 47, but If I Had started at the Current 40mg or even 30mg or 35mg Every other day, I could've Avlided some Unwanted side effects.
The Estrodial Levels stay more Level And Donr Get Pushed Out Of Range because I have a Lesser amount Of Test Aromatizing then On 200mg at one.
My Progesterone levels Aren't Really effected from the 20mg of Nandralone since Nanadralone is 19-Nor Progesterone Based Compound I am Not Taking enough to cause Progesterone related side Effects. Pregnenolone and Progesterone are 2 completely different Hormones. Pregnenolone is like the Master Hormone That Keeps the Others Working From what I Understand. Pregnenolone Is what helps keep Our Cortisol levels healthy, and Also Works to aid in a whole Host Of Other Hormone related functions In the Body. I was Probably somewhat deficient in Pregnenolone in 2001 when I started TRT and Its Declined over the last 20years, so My Endo Decided to have me try Pregnenolone 10mg a day to see If It Improved My Anxiety and Depression, he thought the Anxiety could've Been from the High levels of Exogenous Testosterone I was Injecting, but My Endo and I Both Believe Now, that Me Starting on AAS cycles When I was 18 is What Caused me To Be Physiologically(physical and mentally) depressed and Pregnenolone helped Me fund That Missing Part Of the Puzzle as to what My Body needed, since All Males Are Differnt in how we Produce and Utilize Natural Test, and Even Exogenous Testosterone from The Injections. My SHBG And Free Test Levels Will be Differnt, then day yours on the Same mgs of Test weekly at the Same age. and that Your Overall Testosterone Levels and Free Test Levels would be different then Me depending In How Each Of Our Bodies Utilizes the Exogenous Test we inject. I hope that Helped Answer the question Brother, I didnr Know what Pregnenolone was till 2 years Ago, I thought It was Progesterone when he First Said It, bit After Reading and Understanding a Little More For myself what I might Need for Me I Decided tk Try It And Its like someone Turned ths Light On and Fjnallt Have that Valance I've Been striving for For A Longtime..
Poetdrifter
New Member
I didn't See the bottom Half Of your Question Jerajera, my Apologies, you Understand completely what Pregnenolone and DHEA is For Men's HRT. Honestly he Didnr Test It At First, he said 10mg Would Be a Start and if I See A Change After A Few Months He would Do Bloodwork, I'll pull the Numbers Up from the First Test About 20months ago and My Numbers from about 40days ago. But Pregnenolone has made a huge Difference for Me, my Progesterone, DHEA, and E2 levels are normal Range. I'm glad I expanded the Bottkm Half After I wrote All thag Man, my Apologies, I thought you confused Progesterone with Pregnenolone...
No need to apologize and thank you for the detailed explanation. This hormone stuff is so complex it becomes really confusing. Every time I feel I finally understand something, another piece of information comes in to change everything haha.
I'm glad to hear things seem to finally be working for you. My DHEA-S levels dropped by 60% a few months after I got on TRT and my Pregnenolone levels were very low also. I don't know what they were before TRT but my guess is that if DHEA was so negatively affected, Pregnenolone probably was as well.
I've also never been able to maintain feeling good on any protocol. After an initial period of feeling pretty good, I always go back pretty much to how I was feeling before. My mental sharpness also took a significant hit since getting on TRT.
I've been torn between blaming high Estrogen and the shutdown of neurosteroids production (Pregnenolone, DHEA, Progesterone, etc...).
At the end of the day it might be both, but I'm going to try introducing 10mg/day of Pregnenolone and see what happens before messing with Anastrozole again
T
tareload
Guest
Very Well said. I thought I did something hard / complex in my job until I started screwing with my hormones. Piece of cake, right? What a humbling experience. I don't know how I thought that was a good idea LOL.
I enjoy your most excellent and thoughtful posts. Thank you.
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Humbing is right, I remember going into this so confident and hopeful. A little over 2 years later and I feel more confused about it than about anything in my life before, including when I was getting constantly gaslighted by a psycho ex cheating on me lol.
That said I will never give up because I'm pretty sure I was close to racking up my chips and leaving the game before I got on TRT. If nothing else, it got rid of my suicidal depression and that alone has been invaluable, quite literally.
Maybe it's delusion on my part, but I do feel I'm slowly converging onto realistic solutions over time. We'll see...
Same, I'm really glad you're still here. Thanks for all your efforts and insights
Good talk, trt seems to be for some a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of scenario, i am also one of those who cannot maintain feeling good on protocols, and currently cannot tolerate the usual trt doses. I am caught in this cycle of going on and off, sometimes i feel worse on trt, but the depressive symptoms that creep up after a while in the natural state become too much eventually. I could not tolerate 50mg life extension pregnenolone, it is detrimental to sleep even in the morning. 10mg under the tongue is ok but does not seem to be doing anything. I believe there are individual differences in how the oral preg is metabolized, and it is never the same as pregnenolone produced in your body. My next trial might be to do clomid on as needed basis, or proviron on occasion. Who knows. We don't have multiuse vials in Finland so that sucks, all the enanthate in europe is in ampoules without preservative, in castor oil, sure you can put it in an empty vial but it is a little sketchy.
Fernando Almaguer
Well-Known Member
What issues did you get Vince?
Vince
Super Moderator
Night sweats which I didn't mind and it destroyed my LDL particles. It made my good big fluffy ones disappear and gave me lots of small ones
Fernando Almaguer
Well-Known Member
Oh damn. Did you have a good recovery after cessation? How long did you take ND (dose)?
Vince
Super Moderator
I just stopped using it and everything was fine.
How many mgs per week were u using of nandrolone at the time?
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