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You don’t see anyone judging others or putting them down for eating a crappy diet full of processed foods, which is obv way worse for someones health than using 200-300mg of total androgens, and/ or having a free T level double the top of the reference range. But for some reason someone using 250-300mg of total androgens is going to get harshly criticized and judged, but nobody bats an eye at the guy that’s overweight and eating a horrible diet, and taking years off his life and dramatically increasing his risk of all cause mortality.

You don't?

I am getting a red herring / hand waving vibe.

How would you go about supporting that claim? Methinks it would prove difficult.

Instead perhaps educate that most likely either option is bad long term. But if you want to do it then have at it. Informed consent. But when bad shit happens (hopefully not), don't say no one ever told me about the risks.
 
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I like your effort and passion but paragraph breaks would be helpful.

No judgment here. Currently on 160 mg/week Test Cyp. Can I get in the Androgen/no judgment club? Or do I have to break the 200 mg/week threshold for a certain amount of time?

Not sure how you or others would feel ridiculed by the extreme amount of info a few very hard working posters provide on here but oh well. That is the curse of thr forums. (1) No good deed goes unpunished and (2) free shit is never valued. I appreciate your perspective but it does have an air of rationalization. Remember, the easiest person to fool is always yourself. Happy Optimizing everyone.
That’s actually a good point. I definitely should break things up a bit more when I‘m writing small novels lol. I think it would be helpful and easier to read as well

I personally don’t feel judged or offended if guys offer/ post information here that goes against what guys running higher than average androgen levels are doing. I think the problem lies in guys making other men feel bad about what they’re doing, like they’re doing something wrong. But honestly I‘ve been guilty of the same thing when I look back. Instead of just posting information about the risks of taking things like statins and/ or acid reflux medications, for a few examples, I’ve definitely judged others who are taking them, and put them down for choosing to take them. Now that I realize that I’m guilty of this, I absolutely won’t be doing any of that again going forward. I’ll simply just offer info on certain subjects, and let other guys explore the info on their own if they choose to do so, and whatever they do with that info I respect. Again, my personal goals in life are just to be happy, and help others be happy. So pushing my opinions on others definitely doesn’t fall in the latter of those goals, and I definitely feel bad about it. But will make the necessary changes to make sure that doesn’t happen again going forward
 
You don't?

I am getting a red herring / hand waving vibe.

How would you go about supporting that claim? Methinks it would prove difficult.

Instead perhaps educate that most likely either option is bad long term. But if you want to do it then have at it. Informed consent. But when bad shit happens (hopefully not), don't say no one ever told me about the risks.
It probably would be difficult to definitively prove tbh, and I’m way too lazy to even try lol. Guess we can just chalk it up to that being my opinion, and nothing more lol

and that’s a great point to emphasize. Anyone running higher than average androgen levels, like myself, should most importantly be very cognizant of the risks associated with doing so. I’m definitely not oblivious to them, and anyone willing to push the envelope for a higher quality of life shouldn't be either
 
It probably would be difficult to definitively prove tbh, and I’m way too lazy to even try lol. Guess we can just chalk it up to that being my opinion, and nothing more lol

and that’s a great point to emphasize. Anyone running higher than average androgen levels, like myself, should most importantly be very cognizant of the risks associated with doing so. I’m definitely not oblivious to them, and anyone willing to push the envelope for a higher quality of life shouldn't be either
And full disclosure I believe @FunkOdyssey already figured me out. He wisely stated I am just a bitch because I am mad that my wuss genes won't allow me to run the higher doses like the men on here. I told him he was probably correct.

I liked your comment about majority vs minority. I am definitely in the minority in many things including androgen tolerance LOL.

Too bad we can't all be a god like Dr. @RobRoy lmao.

Take care.
 
Big difference between information being presented vs it being absorbed and comprehended.

That is what you conclude from this painstakingly detailed thread? So be it.

Curious, you actually read the material?

I didnt read anything you posted. My comments are based on other things that were said and the general attitude of some people on this forum. I still think its a great place for information.
 

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Perhaps tren for TRT will have its day outside if Costa Rica. I can see how people get frustrated.
I’m jc, let’s say tren was legal to prescribe everywhere, what would be so wrong about adding say 25mg of tren per week to a protocol if it gave the guy the libido he’s been looking for, more motivation, and more confidence, without any negatives on mood or sleep or energy, and very minimally effected his labs in a negative way. Jc what would be so wrong about that, in ur opinion. Not saying I’m pro tren for hrt lol. Jc what ur personal opinion is. For the record, I’m also not against very low dose tren for HRT if it gives a guy a lot of positives, with very minimal negatives. I’m all for guys finding the best balance that works for them personally, in regards to happiness, well being, being the best version of themselves possible, health, longevity and how they interact and effect others around them.
 
I’m jc, let’s say tren was legal to prescribe everywhere, what would be so wrong about adding say 25mg of tren per week to a protocol if it gave the guy the libido he’s been looking for, more motivation, and more confidence, without any negatives on mood or sleep or energy, and very minimally effected his labs in a negative way. Jc what would be so wrong about that, in ur opinion. Not saying I’m pro tren for hrt lol. Jc what ur personal opinion is. For the record, I’m also not against very low dose tren for HRT if it gives a guy a lot of positives, with very minimal negatives. I’m all for guys finding the best balance that works for them personally, in regards to happiness, well being, being the best version of themselves possible, health, longevity and how they interact and effect others around them.
That would be the ultimate test for tren if legal....to make my 14 yr old shoulders grow. I doubt it

I feel you. Really.
 
I’m jc, let’s say tren was legal to prescribe everywhere, what would be so wrong about adding say 25mg of tren per week to a protocol if it gave the guy the libido he’s been looking for, more motivation, and more confidence, without any negatives on mood or sleep or energy, and very minimally effected his labs in a negative way. Jc what would be so wrong about that, in ur opinion. Not saying I’m pro tren for hrt lol. Jc what ur personal opinion is. For the record, I’m also not against very low dose tren for HRT if it gives a guy a lot of positives, with very minimal negatives. I’m all for guys finding the best balance that works for them personally, in regards to happiness, well being, being the best version of themselves possible, health, longevity and how they interact and effect others around them.
Slightly off topic, and I know you are just posing a hypothetical question, but if my quick perusal of the studies is correct, tren is one of very few compounds to directly target visceral fat, which is a huge deal if a low dose would create a permanent improvement. I have seen quite a few people who lose adipose tissue but retain a distended belly (which I know can be due to more than visceral fat, but still...) . I 'm hoping one of the androgen big-brains (Peter Bond, Hello!) can address this one day.
 
Slightly off topic, and I know you are just posing a hypothetical question, but if my quick perusal of the studies is correct, tren is one of very few compounds to directly target visceral fat, which is a huge deal if a low dose would create a permanent improvement. I have seen quite a few people who lose adipose tissue but retain a distended belly (which I know can be due to more than visceral fat, but still...) . I 'm hoping one of the androgen big-brains (Peter Bond, Hello!) can address this one day.
Ya unfortunately tren is one of the most toxic AAS out there, as far as I know, but a little goes a long way with it, and if someone can take a very low dose, say 25mg/ week, and get benefits from it that they haven’t been able to get from the standard HRT compounds, while maintaining their health markers pretty well, I dont see anything wrong with implementing it into an HRT protocol. But then u have the fact that it’s illegal, which is obv a huge factor. I look at all AAS related compounds as tools. Some “tools” just come with more risks than others. But it’s all about the pros and cons, and what a good balance looks like for each person individually, imo. So I’m not really against people using any compound, as long as the pros outweigh the cons for them, and the balance they have going for them personally makes them overall happy, and hopefully helps make the people around them happy as well
 
I’m jc, let’s say tren was legal to prescribe everywhere, what would be so wrong about adding say 25mg of tren per week to a protocol if it gave the guy the libido he’s been looking for, more motivation, and more confidence, without any negatives on mood or sleep or energy, and very minimally effected his labs in a negative way. Jc what would be so wrong about that, in ur opinion. Not saying I’m pro tren for hrt lol. Jc what ur personal opinion is. For the record, I’m also not against very low dose tren for HRT if it gives a guy a lot of positives, with very minimal negatives. I’m all for guys finding the best balance that works for them personally, in regards to happiness, well being, being the best version of themselves possible, health, longevity and how they interact and effect others around them.
Just adding my 2 cents.

I have absolutely no problem with anything anyone does with their body if it is their own choice.

As a matter of fact, I actually appreciate the guys who are willing to go out there and try and experiment as the more information we have as a community the better we all are for it. For example, the guys that went out and have experimented with different dosing protocols, qd, qod, etc have benefitted all. I too am jealous of guys who can tolerate 19-nors, i would love to be able to try something like what you describe but my past experience with low dose nandrolone left me a depressed conspiracy theorist with inverted t-waves.

On the flip side no one should be attacked for having a healthy skepticism of claims of the safety of various protocols or of challenging claims people make like the idea that a study of septuagenarians in palm beach on androgel with a total t of 750 proves the safety of using compounded ball cream with no upper limit to total t levels.(im exaggerating a little).

So do whatever you want, but dont claim its safe unless you can back it up, and dont call me a pussy on woke trt because I won't come along on the ride with you(thats a general statement, not directed at you)

And lets keep talking and debating as this is 100% the best TRT community in the world.
 
Just adding my 2 cents.

I have absolutely no problem with anything anyone does with their body if it is their own choice.

As a matter of fact, I actually appreciate the guys who are willing to go out there and try and experiment as the more information we have as a community the better we all are for it. For example, the guys that went out and have experimented with different dosing protocols, qd, qod, etc have benefitted all. I too am jealous of guys who can tolerate 19-nors, i would love to be able to try something like what you describe but my past experience with low dose nandrolone left me a depressed conspiracy theorist with inverted t-waves.

On the flip side no one should be attacked for having a healthy skepticism of claims of the safety of various protocols or of challenging claims people make like the idea that a study of septuagenarians in palm beach on androgel with a total t of 750 proves the safety of using compounded ball cream with no upper limit to total t levels.(im exaggerating a little).

So do whatever you want, but dont claim its safe unless you can back it up, and dont call me a pussy on woke trt because I won't come along on the ride with you(thats a general statement, not directed at you)

And lets keep talking and debating as this is 100% the best TRT community in the world.
Love it man. Agree with everything u said. Im also a huge fan of guys that are willing to experiment. We can learn a ton from them. Especially when they’re really good at getting frequent bloodwork and are very in tune with their bodies and what’s going on with them.

and I agree with the last part as well. Everyone here should always be able to question things. Theres a lot to be gained from having friendly debates on different subjects.

jc, what was ur protocol when u used the low dose nandrolone and got mental sides?
 
Have u ever tried using test, nandrolone and a DHT derivative?

also, what DHT derivatives make u feel best?
I have only taken deca on top of a test base. One time I may have been taking all 3, I’d have to check my notes, but regardless it’s just not something I’m interested in for the cardiac issues more than anything .

Anavar is the best, epistane second. I’ve dabbled in proviron but never for any length of time to draw any conclusions.
 
Have u ever tried using test, nandrolone and a DHT derivative?

also, what DHT derivatives make u feel best?
My current protocol is 70mg each of Deca, Test, and Primabolin Every 5 days. Gained 10lbs of decent quality muscle in 3 months. Love this. Will drop the deca and primo for a month or two and repeat.
 
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My current protocol is 70mg each of Deca, Test, and Primabolin Every 5 days. Gained 10lbs of decent quality muscle in 3 months. Love this. Will drop the deca and primo for a month or two and repeat.
So ur currently doing around 98mg of each per week total?

how do u feel mentally and sexually compared to just test alone? Jc because this is the exact protocol I’m running atm, just with different dosages and ratios.
 
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