Nandrolone (Deca) Base TRT Trial

[Gman86]

You have a fair point as well. But lets not forget that even doing all the supplement regime and cardio regime there are other things that influence like stress. And some of us can't mitigate current stress for various different reasons and then no matter what you do things won't get better doing the generic protocols and strategies implemented. We can argue both points into the ground but the fact that stress is a major key player will stay. If supplements, cardio regimes and all don't work then def meditation is the way to go or at least to give it a fair try. It's not about this, or maybe it is? The best CFS and Adrenal fatigue docs in the USA swear that meditation is 50% or even more of success plus 1 main supplement and a few other simple ones. So like I said, if implementing your strategies, shit don't work, it's time to be a bit more open minded and do what you don't want to do as meditating 3x/day sounds funny af, but trust me it works wonders and everyone who is into it knows the deal. Simple YT beach sounds 20-30mins 3x day with eyes closed, earbuds on and in comfy position. It goes way beyond what an average person would imagine

Definitely preaching to the choir on the whole stress thing. I tell everyone there’s literally nothing worse than chronic stress, when it comes to the human body. I mean I’m sure there’s worse things, but it’s up there, and people usually have no idea how negatively stress affects the human body. I don’t think anyone truly understands all the negative things it does, including me. Don’t think we’ll ever figure out all the mechanisms by which stress affects the body negatively. All I know is that it’s absolutely one of the worst things, and if we made a list of all the things it negatively affects, while ur in a state of stress, I guarantee the list would be so much longer than anyone could ever imagine. I’ve heard one doctor say that stress basically makes most of the actions in the body work improperly. Kind of makes sense. Cuz stress most likely puts the body in a low grade form of being in fight or flight, and we know that while we’re in fight or flight mode, the body sacrifices normal every day functions, in order to put its resources into things that we temporarily might need, in order to survive. That state is fine, if we’re quickly in and out of it, but being in that state for long periods of time, is going to ultimately cause a host of issues.

I’ve watched so many things on longevity, whether it’s interviews, or documentaries, etc, and have even done little interviews on my own, while working in healthcare. I’ve sat down with many patients that were over 100, and asked them a bunch of questions, to figure out if there was some things that they all had in common, that I couldn’t take away and implement myself. And the main thing that I’ve gotten out of all that, as far as what people that live a long time have in common, other than food genetics obv, is stress management. Seems like most people that are healthy into their very later years, handle stress very well. They seem to be able to have bad/ stressful/ sad things happen to them, but are able to process and get over them relatively quickly, and get back to a state of focusing on the things in there life that bring them happiness. I knew one lady that lived until like 107, and for the last 30 years of her life, drank a bottle of wine per day. I truly think that probably benefited her, due to it keeping her in a state of low stress/ low worry, a lot of the day. Anyways, I’m a firm believer that keeping stress low, is one of the best ways to stay in optimal health, and increase longevity. That with an optimal diet, are my top one and two things, that I think someone can do, as far as feeling/ functioning optimally and increasing longevity goes

But again, like u said, for some people that’s absolutely easier said than done. Even in my life currently, it’s much easier said than done, and very few people understand how negatively stress affects the body, more than me. Or very few people, other than me, believe that it affects the body so negatively, I should say.

 

[Belekas]

Definitely preaching to the choir on the whole stress thing. I tell everyone there’s literally nothing worse than chronic stress, when it comes to the human body. I mean I’m sure there’s worse things, but it’s up there, and people usually have no idea how negatively stress affects the human body. I don’t think anyone truly understands all the negative things it does, including me. Don’t think we’ll ever figure out all the mechanisms by which stress affects the body negatively. All I know is that it’s absolutely one of the worst things, and if we made a list of all the things it negatively affects, while ur in a state of stress, I guarantee the list would be so much longer than anyone could ever imagine. I’ve heard one doctor say that stress basically makes most of the actions in the body work improperly. Kind of makes sense. Cuz stress most likely puts the body in a low grade form of being in fight or flight, and we know that while we’re in fight or flight mode, the body sacrifices normal every day functions, in order to put its resources into things that we temporarily might need, in order to survive. That state is fine, if we’re quickly in and out of it, but being in that state for long periods of time, is going to ultimately cause a host of issues.

I’ve watched so many things on longevity, whether it’s interviews, or documentaries, etc, and have even done little interviews on my own, while working in healthcare. I’ve sat down with many patients that were over 100, and asked them a bunch of questions, to figure out if there was some things that they all had in common, that I couldn’t take away and implement myself. And the main thing that I’ve gotten out of all that, as far as what people that live a long time have in common, other than food genetics obv, is stress management. Seems like most people that are healthy into their very later years, handle stress very well. They seem to be able to have bad/ stressful/ sad things happen to them, but are able to process and get over them relatively quickly, and get back to a state of focusing on the things in there life that bring them happiness. I knew one lady that lived until like 107, and for the last 30 years of her life, drank a bottle of wine per day. I truly think that probably benefited her, due to it keeping her in a state of low stress/ low worry, a lot of the day. Anyways, I’m a firm believer that keeping stress low, is one of the best ways to stay in optimal health, and increase longevity. That with an optimal diet, are my top one and two things, that I think someone can do, as far as feeling/ functioning optimally and increasing longevity goes

But again, like u said, for some people that’s absolutely easier said than done. Even in my life currently, it’s much easier said than done, and very few people understand how negatively stress affects the body, more than me. Or very few people, other than me, believe that it affects the body so negatively, I should say.

Absolutely spot on. Couldn't even put it out better so Thank You. Stress can aboslutely kill you. I chatted with a lady that lived with her toxic mother and the chronic stress made her collapse in the kitchen one day. She had low cortisol and nearly died. Managed to push through but has to do certain things for life and ofc she fucked off her mother, which was the main cause over the years. Optimal diet is key as its proven that it helps to mitigate and cope with stress a lot better. And yeah most people have no idea how bad chronic stress is. Now that we are talking about I'd like to see statistics about monks and priests lol

 

[Gman86]

Generally, I agree with Gman that there is some mechanism for the BP increase, and you can test different solutions that are associated with those different causes. There's no way you could fail to control BP on TRT if you are determined to, the only question is what it will take in terms of interventions. If protocol adjustments don't work, and if the lifestyle and supplement interventions don't work, some combination of drugs will. If it's water retention, diuretic. If its adrenergic vasoconstriction, nebivolol. If its the RAS system, ARBs / ACEs.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Exactly. That’s basically all I’m saying. At the end of the day, there’s some mechanism going on that’s causing the increased BP. As long as the person doesn’t give up, and learns every possible mechanism, by which BP can be altered/ increased, they will absolutely eventually figure out how to correct their BP issues. Ideally without meds, and without having to come off of HRT.

I’ve honestly seen crazy results, simply from implementing a quality magnesium product, on a regular basis, in people trying to lower their BP. Magnesium is also amazing for decreasing stress, and keeping the body in a parasympathetic state. But magnesium is a perfect example, of what I was trying to say before, when just because someone says “I tried implementing ur strategies, and they didn’t work” it means very little to me. I’d have to know exactly what magnesium product they were taking, how they were taking it, and how often. For instance, taking a magnesium glycine tablet once a day, is not the same thing as putting a quality liquid magnesium chloride supplement into ur water, and sipping it throughout the day.

So when someone says, “I implemented ur strategies, and my BP didn’t drop”, it holds very little weight to me. I’d have to see which strategies they implemented, how they implemented them, and how often they implemented them, to take that statement seriously. Like I said, I’ve seen dramatic results, in people I’ve helped with BP, simply from implementing magnesium, in the way that I recommend. Let alone when someone implements all the strategies I recommend.

 

[Gman86]

Absolutely spot on. Couldn't even put it out better so Thank You. Stress can aboslutely kill you. I chatted with a lady that lived with her toxic mother and the chronic stress made her collapse in the kitchen one day. She had low cortisol and nearly died. Managed to push through but has to do certain things for life and ofc she fucked off her mother, which was the main cause over the years. Optimal diet is key as its proven that it helps to mitigate and cope with stress a lot better. And yeah most people have no idea how bad chronic stress is. Now that we are talking about I'd like to see statistics about monks and priests lol

Yup, just look at that example. And this is stress in adulthood, going over stress ur mother experiences while ur in the womb, stress u experience while ur a baby, stress while ur a child, stress while ur a teenager, is a whole other ball game. Stress during those periods will have permanent negative effects on the persons development, mainly their brain, which will negatively affect them for the rest of their lives. Some people experience stress during those periods, and their hormones never balance properly, and most likely will never balance properly, at least without exogenous intervention. So ya, stress is just so much worse for humans than most people realize, to put it lightly

Would love to see that case study! Lol. However, we do have to factor in that one of the known keys to longevity is a robust social circle, late into life. But other than that, I would imagine monks have a very good shot at living well into old age, on average. Low stress being the main contributor, I would imagine

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

A quick search suggests that Testosterone in general pushes the renin–angiotensin–aldosterone system (RAAS) in the direction of higher blood pressure, however this is likely highly variable between people and some people may be hyper-responders. I don't seem to have this issue but something about TRT seems to push my heart rate to be much higher than it was before. If everything else was perfect but BP, looking into Telmisartan seems reasonable since it apparently has a number of benefits beyond making the blood pressure meter behave. I heard an interview with a forward-thinking Dr who takes it because of research she found saying it is generally very positive for the vascular system, not because of a BOP issue. It is an interesting compound and is apparently one of the few that extends life (in mice) independent of blood pressure IIRC.

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Didn’t know that telmisartan could help with libido. What’s the mechanism by which it helps in that department? Has increased ur libido at all since starting it? What dose u taking?

I apologize, telimasrtan helps with nitric oxide and supposed to be better for sexual health. Not libido persay. Either way better to have a pill than high bp whether you are looking foward to addressing it or not.

 

[Gman86]

A quick search suggests that Testosterone in general pushes the renin–angiotensin–aldosterone system (RAAS) in the direction of higher blood pressure, however this is likely highly variable between people and some people may be hyper-responders. I don't seem to have this issue but something about TRT seems to push my heart rate to be much higher than it was before. If everything else was perfect but BP, looking into Telmisartan seems reasonable since it apparently has a number of benefits beyond making the blood pressure meter behave. I heard an interview with a forward-thinking Dr who takes it because of research she found saying it is generally very positive for the vascular system, not because of a BOP issue. It is an interesting compound and is apparently one of the few that extends life (in mice) independent of blood pressure IIRC.

Would love to know the mechanism by which it extends life in mice. Seems like Telmisartan is one of those medications that might be beneficial for people to take, even if they don’t absolutely need it. But there’s never a biological free lunch, so I’m still a little skeptical

 

[JimGainz]

One thing I noticed from taking Telmisartan (and then from Amlodipine) is that these ARBs and Calcium channel blocker BP meds keep hematocrit down. It’s crazy how well they work fort that. Previously whenever I ran Test (even at 75 mg per week) or running nandrolone my HCT would hit the low 50s within 2-3 momths Taking BP meds keeps it around 46 @ the 4 month mark. That is one of the benefits as well as reducing chances of LVH. I say go with a low dose med when running nandrolone if you can’t get BP to under 130/80 - which is the European target BP. 120/70, the revised US standard is pretty much unattainable without a med cocktail and dangerous for the elderly.

 

[Gman86]

One thing I noticed from taking Telmisartan (and then from Amlodipine) is that these ARBs and Calcium channel blocker BP meds keep hematocrit down. It’s crazy how well they work fort that. Previously whenever I ran Test (even at 75 mg per week) or running nandrolone my HCT would hit the low 50s within 2-3 momths Taking BP meds keeps it around 46 @ the 4 month mark. That is one of the benefits as well as reducing chances of LVH. I say go with a low dose med when running nandrolone if you can’t get BP to under 130/80 - which is the European target BP. 120/70, the revised US standard is pretty much unattainable without a med cocktail and dangerous for the elderly.

This is great info to know. Any idea how these meds lower HCT? Like what effects from these meds are reducing HCT. Would love to know

 

[JimGainz]

This is great info to know. Any idea how these meds lower HCT? Like what effects from these meds are reducing HCT. Would love to know

There were several studies that showed these effects and they were pretty significant. It’s beyond my level of comprehension, but it mentioned things such as “Hemodulation” which I looked up and it means increasing the plasma fluid so it seems that one gets a higher concentration of blood fluid versus particle when taking these drugs. This is also one of the reasons why higher doses of these medications can cause edema and swelling if it goes too high. I have not experienced negative side effects taking these drugs with the exception of taking losartan at 100 mg which caused intensive cramping. Other than that, I barely know I’m on.

 

[Gman86]

There were several studies that showed these effects and they were pretty significant. It’s beyond my level of comprehension, but it mentioned things such as “Hemodulation” which I looked up and it means increasing the plasma fluid so it seems that one gets a higher concentration of blood fluid versus particle when taking these drugs. This is also one of the reasons why higher doses of these medications can cause edema and swelling if it goes too high. I have not experienced negative side effects taking these drugs with the exception of taking losartan at 100 mg which caused intensive cramping. Other than that, I barely know I’m on.

So that might be partially why, or maybe entirely why it lowers HCT levels. If it increases plasma volume, would make sense that it would lower HCT levels. RBC, HCT and HGB levels are all based on total blood volume, and plasma makes up around 55-60% of the total volume of our blood. So definitely makes sense that if ARB’s increase plasma volume, that it would then lower RBC, HCT and HGB levels. Good stuff to know. Thanks for sharing this

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Would love to know the mechanism by which it extends life in mice. Seems like Telmisartan is one of those medications that might be beneficial for people to take, even if they don’t absolutely need it. But there’s never a biological free lunch, so I’m still a little skeptical

Here is an excerpt from an article in Life Extension Magazine:

A little known side benefit to the class of antihypertensive drugs known as angiotensin II receptor blockers is that they enhance insulin sensitivity, increase utilization of fat as energy, and improve mitochondrial function.5,7,13,38,39,100 Of all the drugs in this class, telmisartan stands out as superior for potential longevity enhancement.101-103

As humans age, mitochondrial dysfunction becomes a deadly factor in the development of obesity, insulin resistance, endothelial breakdown, and type II diabetes.104-109 Telmisartan helps correct these underlying mechanisms of aging and death (as do many of the nutrients Life Extension® members already take).

Telmisartan activates a regulator of cellular energy called PPAR-gamma coactivator 1 alpha (PGC-1a), which stimulates the burning of excess calories.110,111 This can be a crucial factor in weight management.

Studies indicate that telmisartan directly stimulates PPAR-gamma (peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma), a key inducer of beneficial metabolic effects.112-114 PPAR-gamma activating properties have also been reported for other angiotensin II receptor blocker drugs, but telmisartan is at least 10 times more powerful.112

Telmisartan has been shown in preclinical models to reduce weight gain, increase total energy expenditure, and increase expression of key mitochondrial enzymes in skeletal muscle better than a more popular drug in this class (Diovan®).7,13,39,115-117

Atherosclerosis remains a leading killer of Americans.118 Telmisartan functions by multiple mechanisms to protect against arterial occlusion,119-121 including increasing beneficial endothelial nitric oxide.39,122,123

Lastly, telmisartan appears to promote biochemical, biological, and metabolic effects that some researchers have suggested could boost athletic performance.112

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Here is an excerpt from an article in Life Extension Magazine:

A little known side benefit to the class of antihypertensive drugs known as angiotensin II receptor blockers is that they enhance insulin sensitivity, increase utilization of fat as energy, and improve mitochondrial function.5,7,13,38,39,100 Of all the drugs in this class, telmisartan stands out as superior for potential longevity enhancement.101-103

As humans age, mitochondrial dysfunction becomes a deadly factor in the development of obesity, insulin resistance, endothelial breakdown, and type II diabetes.104-109 Telmisartan helps correct these underlying mechanisms of aging and death (as do many of the nutrients Life Extension® members already take).

Telmisartan activates a regulator of cellular energy called PPAR-gamma coactivator 1 alpha (PGC-1a), which stimulates the burning of excess calories.110,111 This can be a crucial factor in weight management.

Studies indicate that telmisartan directly stimulates PPAR-gamma (peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma), a key inducer of beneficial metabolic effects.112-114 PPAR-gamma activating properties have also been reported for other angiotensin II receptor blocker drugs, but telmisartan is at least 10 times more powerful.112

Telmisartan has been shown in preclinical models to reduce weight gain, increase total energy expenditure, and increase expression of key mitochondrial enzymes in skeletal muscle better than a more popular drug in this class (Diovan®).7,13,39,115-117

Atherosclerosis remains a leading killer of Americans.118 Telmisartan functions by multiple mechanisms to protect against arterial occlusion,119-121 including increasing beneficial endothelial nitric oxide.39,122,123

Lastly, telmisartan appears to promote biochemical, biological, and metabolic effects that some researchers have suggested could boost athletic performance.112

Great reminder! I switched over from lisinopril and have not looked back. Telmisartan! Telmisartan!

 

[Mr.63]

Any updates from the guys on a deca base? Im curious how y’all still doing..

 

[JimGainz]

Any updates from the guys on a deca base? Im curious how y’all still doing..

Doing great. I run 200mg nandrolone and low dose Testosterone (25-50 mg weekly). Recently dropped all Testosterone for the last 3 weeks and feel even better but will reintroduce it because I need some estradiol conversion. Every few months I will lower the nandrolone dose to 120mg and lower Test to 20mg for a few weeks just to keep HCT under 50% (although there is no risk here - just something my circa 1980s bodybuilding background can’t seem to shake which is cycling the dose). Never going back to traditional Testosterone-based TRT.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Doing great. I run 200mg nandrolone and low dose Testosterone (25-50 mg weekly). Recently dropped all Testosterone for the last 3 weeks and feel even better but will reintroduce it because I need some estradiol conversion. Every few months I will lower the nandrolone dose to 120mg and lower Test to 20mg for a few weeks just to keep HCT under 50% (although there is no risk here - just something my circa 1980s bodybuilding background can’t seem to shake which is cycling the dose). Never going back to traditional Testosterone-based TRT.

Does nandrolone seem to raise your HCT? My HCT jumped up and I'm not sure why.

 

[JimGainz]

Does nandrolone seem to raise your HCT? My HCT jumped up and I'm not sure why.

It’s mostly from Testosterone

 

[NormBC]

Doing great. I run 200mg nandrolone and low dose Testosterone (25-50 mg weekly). Recently dropped all Testosterone for the last 3 weeks and feel even better but will reintroduce it because I need some estradiol conversion. Every few months I will lower the nandrolone dose to 120mg and lower Test to 20mg for a few weeks just to keep HCT under 50% (although there is no risk here - just something my circa 1980s bodybuilding background can’t seem to shake which is cycling the dose). Never going back to traditional Testosterone-based TRT.

Hello, JimGainz. Can I ask the details of your protocol? IM or subq? Weekly, or broken down into EOD injections? Just nandrolone and test (no HCG)?

I’m currently running 260mg test (cream plus prop EOD as I respond better with higher peaks+troughs), plus weekly 50mg Deca. Currently in high-normal range for both test and est, no BP or hematocrit issues. Doc wanted me off HCG, and for a few weeks now I’m having issues with lower libido, poor EQ, lack of nipple and penile sensitivity. Debating switching to a Nandrolone based protocol.

 

[Mr.63]

Do t

Doing great. I run 200mg nandrolone and low dose Testosterone (25-50 mg weekly). Recently dropped all Testosterone for the last 3 weeks and feel even better but will reintroduce it because I need some estradiol conversion. Every few months I will lower the nandrolone dose to 120mg and lower Test to 20mg for a few weeks just to keep HCT under 50% (although there is no risk here - just something my circa 1980s bodybuilding background can’t seem to shake which is cycling the dose). Never going back to traditional Testosterone-based TRT

No BP issues?
You say 25-50mg test.. what do you mean?
You pin different mg’s every time you pin test?

 

[baconlatte]

Any updates from the guys on a deca base? Im curious how y’all still doing..

I’m in my 6th month. Been on 150mg NPP + 1000iu hCG for the most part but decided to try 200mg a few weeks ago. I don’t really feel any difference but it might be early. Gonna give it a few more weeks and if it continues I’ll go back down.

I also dropped Test completely because it gave me acne with no real benefit. I honestly don’t see myself using Test ever again.

BP is an issue but I got it under control with meds. Sleep is good. Skin is clear. Fitness and recovery are great. Mental state all good. Libido and erectile function are great but sensitivity is still lacking. I tried Mast, EQ, Primo and Anavar trying to solve that missing piece but had to drop each one almost immediately due to acne. However, I feel pretty damn good overall.