Nandrolone (Deca) Base TRT Trial

[Gman86]

And to take it a step further, I think using test prop during the dialing in phase would be ideal. U can use deca for the nandrolone, since that dose is going to stay constant. But using test prop to dial in will cut the dialing in process by a huge factor. Instead of having to wait 4-6 weeks after a test dosage change, u would only have to wait 5-7 days. So do the math. If to find ur sweetspot u end up needing to titrate up ur test dose 4 times, for example, on cyp or enanthate that’s going to take roughly 16 weeks, or 4 months. Where if u used prop to dial in, it would take roughly a month. Technically only around 20 days. So on prop u could fully dial in, in less than a month. While on cyp or enanthate it could take u around 4 months. More or less depending on how many times u need to titrate up ur test dose by 10mg/ week to get to ur sweetspot. Point is, if u have access to test prop, I would probably recommend using it just to dial in, and then if u want to use cyp or enanthate, simply switch the prop out for one of them once u figure out ur sweetspot with ur test dosage. Of course there could be an adjustment period as the prop is leaving ur system and the enanthate or cyp is coming in, and u might not feel ideal during that time, but I would imagine that once the prop is out, and the cyp or enanthate reach steady state, that u should feel pretty similarly as u did on the prop, as long as the total dosage is the same. To be anal with it, I would just factor in the ester weight of each product.

For example, according to defy’s website, for every 100 mg of Testosterone Propionate u inject, ur typically getting around 93 mg of actual testosterone. Compared to test cyp, where for every 100mg of test cyp ur actually only getting around 68mg of actual test. So if someone were to dial in with prop, and then switch to cyp or enanthate once u find ur sweetspot, it’s just a matter of a simple math equation to figure out the proper dosage to switch to so that u can feel as close to how u felt when u felt like u were in ur sweetspot on the nandrolone and test prop

 

[NomDePlume]

So, Gman86 you are doing subq instead of intramuscular I take it?

I only have access to Test Enanthate, and was planning to start at 100mg Deca and 20mg Test E, either once a week or split into twice a week IM.

I've taken peptides subq, but haven't seen much info suggesting using oil based anabolics that way. Some say they are especially painful to pin subq, or they break down too fast?

I've researched a lot, but am generally a novice in this area.

 

[Gman86]

So, Gman86 you are doing subq instead of intramuscular I take it?

I only have access to Test Enanthate, and was planning to start at 100mg Deca and 20mg Test E, either once a week or split into twice a week IM.

I've taken peptides subq, but haven't seen much info suggesting using oil based anabolics that way. Some say they are especially painful to pin subq, or they break down too fast?

I've researched a lot, but am generally a novice in this area.

No I’ve only ever injected test and nandrolone IM. I’ve never tried subQ before. Some guys tend to like it tho. It’s just always been too hit or miss whether it works for someone for me to mess with it. I’ve always just stuck to the tried and true way to inject oils. Here’s a good vid about HRT, with Dave Lee, and he talks about not being a big fan of subQ for his clients. He prefers IM, and he briefly goes over why. From my understanding it’s only painful subQ when injecting the oil leaves a lump. But other than that I’ve heard it’s pretty painless. And I’ve heard that the oil actually absorbs slower when injected subQ, but I could be wrong

100 deca and 20 test enanthate is a good protocol to start off with, imo

 

[NomDePlume]

No I’ve only ever injected test and nandrolone IM. I’ve never tried subQ before. Some guys tend to like it tho. It’s just always been too hit or miss whether it works for someone for me to mess with it. I’ve always just stuck to the tried and true way to inject oils. Here’s a good vid about HRT, with Dave Lee, and he talks about not being a big fan of subQ for his clients. He prefers IM, and he briefly goes over why. From my understanding it’s only painful subQ when injecting the oil leaves a lump. But other than that I’ve heard it’s pretty painless. And I’ve heard that the oil actually absorbs slower when injected subQ, but I could be wrong

100 deca and 20 test enanthate is a good protocol to start off with, imo

So, you are just doing EO day small injections of the fast acting Test, got it.

On the long release Deca, though, once or twice weekly - or maybe you said you use Nandrolone Cypionate?

I can't imagine micro dosing Deca EOD, myself.

1-2x a day peptides become a chore real fast for me, but I give high praise to BP156/TB-500.

 

[Gman86]

So, you are just doing EO day small injections of the fast acting Test, got it.

On the long release Deca, though, once or twice weekly - or maybe you said you use Nandrolone Cypionate?

I can't imagine micro dosing Deca EOD, myself.

1-2x a day peptides become a chore real fast for me, but I give high praise to BP156/TB-500.

So I’m using a deca base, which is nandrolone decanoate. Nandrolone is only available to be prescribed in the decanoate ester. Only other ester it’s available with is the phenylpropionate ester. It’s referred to as NPP (nandrolone phenylpropionate). It’s only available through underground labs tho. It’s the fast acting ester of nandrolone, while nandrolone decanoate is the longer ester. Nandrolone isn’t available with a cypionate ester

So I’m currently using a deca base, with DHB (dihydroboldenone), and a low dose of test enanthate. But my plan is to get labs done next week, drop the dhb and test, let those clear out of my system, and start this nandrolone base from scratch. Just do nandrolone solo until the DHB and test are out of my system, and then add in 10mg of test propionate (fast acting form of injectable test) and titrate up 10mg/ week as needed until I reach my sweetspot

But I’m injecting all 3 in one syringe EOD IM with a 29 gauge insulin syringe

I would personally inject the test and deca twice a week if I were u. Some guys do fine one once weekly injections, but I think generally most guys do best on twice a week injections

 

[NomDePlume]

So I’m using a deca base, which is nandrolone decanoate. Nandrolone is only available to be prescribed in the decanoate ester. Only other ester it’s available with is the phenylpropionate ester. It’s referred to as NPP (nandrolone phenylpropionate). It’s only available through underground labs tho. It’s the fast acting ester of nandrolone, while nandrolone decanoate is the longer ester. Nandrolone isn’t available with a cypionate ester

So I’m currently using a deca base, with DHB (dihydroboldenone), and a low dose of test enanthate. But my plan is to get labs done next week, drop the dhb and test, let those clear out of my system, and start this nandrolone base from scratch. Just do nandrolone solo until the DHB and test are out of my system, and then add in 10mg of test propionate (fast acting form of injectable test) and titrate up 10mg/ week as needed until I reach my sweetspot

But I’m injecting all 3 in one syringe EOD IM with a 29 gauge insulin syringe

I would personally inject the test and deca twice a week if I were u. Some guys do fine one once weekly injections, but I think generally most guys do best on twice a week injections

Good info, I'm catching on.

From what I'm reading, Deca can have as low as a 4 day half life so 2x a week seems smart.

I'll have to see if I can get some of the Test P. I understand what you are saying now, how only it will allow a relatively fast assessment to find ones sweet spot.

 

[NomDePlume]

Now wondering if an aromatase inhibitor would be suggested for 100 deca and 20 test enanthate weekly?

I know the guys going heavy with both stacked for bodybuilding recommend it strongly.

 

[brookseth]

Today was my first dose of NPP.
I decided on doing 180mg NPP, 20 TE and 600iu HCG split 3x weekly.
My last dose of TE on previous protocol was 7 days ago so I am going to do ONLY NPP and HCG for the first week then add in the 20mg TE the following.
I'll update how I'm doing as the weeks come

Just an update:

First week where I took only NPP and HCG (waiting for the test to clear out) - I felt tired and lethargic all the time.
Week 2 I introduced test back into the mix. Not as tired or lethargic but still minimal motivation or drive. Way more muscle soreness after the gym for the following days.
Absolutely no libido.
I know it's way too soon to judge - just giving updates as we go.

 

[Gman86]

Good info, I'm catching on.

From what I'm reading, Deca can have as low as a 4 day half life so 2x a week seems smart.

I'll have to see if I can get some of the Test P. I understand what you are saying now, how only it will allow a relatively fast assessment to find ones sweet spot.

Ya deca basically has around a 7 day half life. But even still, twice a week is a good balance of convenience and effectiveness when it comes to injection frequency

Ya the dialing in process will just be a lot faster with test prop obv. Plus not a lot of guys have the patience to dial in properly with esters as long as cyp and enanthate. Especially during times where they’re not feeling their best, prior to eventually finding their sweetspot. It’s very difficult to stay on track when u don’t feel good. So with prop, if u don’t feel good, it’s easy to stay on track, cuz u can just adjust the dose and within a couple days u’ll notice a difference. With enanthate or cyp it could take weeks. So not only will prop speed up the dialing in process, I also think it will drastically increase a persons chances of staying compliant long enough to actually find their sweetspot a nandrolone based protocol work for them

 

[Gman86]

Now wondering if an aromatase inhibitor would be suggested for 100 deca and 20 test enanthate weekly?

I know the guys going heavy with both stacked for bodybuilding recommend it strongly.

No way lol. One of the main benefits of a nandrolone based protocol is how easy it is to manage estrogen, and the fact that there will never be a need to use ai’s with it.

100 deca and 20 test is the starting dose for a nandrolone based protocol. It’s most likely not where a guy is going to feel their best. For most guys their estrogen is going to be too low with only 100 deca and 20 test. But u have to start with the lowest dose of test possible really, just to make sure u don’t skip ur sweetspot level right from the jump. Everyone is different. I’m sure there’s guys out there that will only need 20mg of test per week with their nandrolone base to feel amazing. Either way tho, u never need an ai when running a nandrolone based protocol. Let alone when starting off at dosages that are already going to have ur estrogen levels too low

 

[Gman86]

Just an update:

First week where I took only NPP and HCG (waiting for the test to clear out) - I felt tired and lethargic all the time.
Week 2 I introduced test back into the mix. Not as tired or lethargic but still minimal motivation or drive. Way more muscle soreness after the gym for the following days.
Absolutely no libido.
I know it's way too soon to judge - just giving updates as we go.

Thanks for the update. Wish it was going smoother for u obv. I also noticed my muscles being a bit more sore after workouts after switching to the nandrolone base, and my strength dipped ever so slightly. Same total amount of androgens per week as when I was using a test base prior. And I think I’m a bit more tired and lethargic and brain foggy than when I was using test, deca and primo prior to this.

I’m currently taking deca, DHB and test enanthate. I added the dhb to hopefully increase strength and improve muscle recovery. But I just don’t know exactly how DHB affects estrogen, if it affects it at al. So it’s making it harder to know how to dial in properly. So I’m going to get some labs done this upcoming week, drop the DHB and test, and start from scratch with deca solo. Then after like a month, I’ll introduce 10mg of test prop, and titrate up from there, as needed. Really hoping I can find a sweetspot with the nandrolone base where I feel and function better than I did on a test base. I’ll be honest, one of the main reasons I’m wanting the nandrolone base to work is to protect my hair long term. I can openly admit to being pretty vain lol. And I wanted to see if I could feel even better on a nandrolone base than I did on a test base. My junk also hung great the last time I did a nandrolone based protocol. So I also wanted to try and recreate that this time around. No matter what I do on a test base my junk hangs high and right at rest.

 

[brookseth]

Thanks for the update. Wish it was going smoother for u obv. I also noticed my muscles being a bit more sore after workouts after switching to the nandrolone base, and my strength dipped ever so slightly. Same total amount of androgens per week as when I was using a test base prior. And I think I’m a bit more tired and lethargic and brain foggy than when I was using test, deca and primo prior to this.

I’m currently taking deca, DHB and test enanthate. I added the dhb to hopefully increase strength and improve muscle recovery. But I just don’t know exactly how DHB affects estrogen, if it affects it at al. So it’s making it harder to know how to dial in properly. So I’m going to get some labs done this upcoming week, drop the DHB and test, and start from scratch with deca solo. Then after like a month, I’ll introduce 10mg of test prop, and titrate up from there, as needed. Really hoping I can find a sweetspot with the nandrolone base where I feel and function better than I did on a test base. I’ll be honest, one of the main reasons I’m wanting the nandrolone base to work is to protect my hair long term. I can openly admit to being pretty vain lol. And I wanted to see if I could feel even better on a nandrolone base than I did on a test base. My junk also hung great the last time I did a nandrolone based protocol. So I also wanted to try and recreate that this time around. No matter what I do on a test base my junk hangs high and right at rest.

Yea feel like my junk is like shrivvled right now.
Of every protocol I've ever tried I was the best I've felt was on Test + Primo + HCG (and Preg + DHEA sups).
Much like you I'm also worried about the hair. And also don't want to rely on UGL primo as part of just a HRT regimine either. Oddly enough, the past two weeks I feel like my shedding has been the exact same though

I'll keep the updates coming as the weeks progres.

 

[Gman86]

Yea feel like my junk is like shrivvled right now.
Of every protocol I've ever tried I was the best I've felt was on Test + Primo + HCG (and Preg + DHEA sups).
Much like you I'm also worried about the hair. And also don't want to rely on UGL primo as part of just a HRT regimine either. Oddly enough, the past two weeks I feel like my shedding has been the exact same though

I'll keep the updates coming as the weeks progres.

What’s ur current protocol again?

Not sure how much test u still have in ur system, but just remember that prolactin can increase hair loss. So wait until u reach steady state with ur protocol and hormones to judge things. If there’s too much test along with the nandrolone, it can cause estrogen to increase too much, and since estrogen is the main stimulator of prolactin production in the male body, it can cause prolactin to increase, which could negatively affect hair

Low estrogen can also affect hair negatively. So when using a nandrolone base, or using it solo, u just have to make sure ur estrogen doesn’t sit too low, for too long. It’s all about finding the sweetspot. Not just where u feel and function ur best, but ideally where hormone levels can be ideal for health and longevity as well

 

[brookseth]

I did one full week of no TE and only a tiny 40mg dose of Primo mid week as I was feeling totally exhausted thinking it might perk me up a little.
Then one full week on 180mg NPP and 600iu HCG
Then one full week on the protocol of 180mg NPP, 20mg TE and 600iu HCG split 3x weekly (the TE I did as 2x)

But yea the muscle soreness is the weirdest one. I did legs on Tuesday and I'm still ultra sore... and it certainly didnt feel like that amazing of a workout even and this is the longest I think ive ever been sore for.

 

[Gman86]

I did one full week of no TE and only a tiny 40mg dose of Primo mid week as I was feeling totally exhausted thinking it might perk me up a little.
Then one full week on 180mg NPP and 600iu HCG
Then one full week on the protocol of 180mg NPP, 20mg TE and 600iu HCG split 3x weekly (the TE I did as 2x)

But yea the muscle soreness is the weirdest one. I did legs on Tuesday and I'm still ultra sore... and it certainly didnt feel like that amazing of a workout even and this is the longest I think ive ever been sore for.

Ya so between u dropping the test, adding a 40mg bolus of primo, and then only adding back in a small dose of test, ur estrogen could definitely be on the low side atm. Primo has been a surprisingly very potent ai for me during the time that I’ve used it.

Ur most likely still gonna have low estrogen on 180 npp and 20 test E. So it’s not super likely that ur gonna feel great subjectively or at the gym or with muscle soreness, even when things stabilize and level out on that protocol. It’s just a starting off point tho. Only reason I say to start off so low with the test, is due to some people being outliers and feeling their best with estrogen on the lower end. And/ or for guys that are high aromatizers that don’t need a lot of test to have their estrogen where it needs to be for them to feel and function at their best. But if I had to guess, I would guess that most guys would need more than 20mg of test per week to reach their sweetspot, on a nandrolone base. At least while running it for HRT. I would assume the higher ur nandrolone dose is, the less test u would need to cover ur estrogen needs

But I would just stay the course on the 180 npp and 20 test E. At least for another 3-4 weeks if u can. Let the primo, which has a cyp ester attached, mostly get out of ur system, let the test in ur system get as close to steady state as possible, and see how u feel. And then titrate up ur test dose if needed. I know 3-4 weeks feels like such a long time when ur not feeling and functioning optimally, so I would say just try ur best to get as close to 3-4 weeks as u can before changing anything

And since ur using test E, and not prop, it wouldn’t be the worst thing if u bump ur test dose up from 20 to 40, opposed to the titrating up by 10mg each time like I recommended. Sometimes it’s not about what’s perfectly ideal, it’s also about what is going to give the person the best chance of success at eventually figuring out their sweetspot on a protocol. And a huge aspect of getting their is how easy it is for them to stay compliant and patient, and how long they have to stay compliant and patient for.

So maybe with test cyp and enanthate it might be preferable to titrate up the dose 20mg at a time, and then just monitor things closely. I’d say if after 2 weeks u end up feeling better than u do at 4 weeks post titrating up ur dose, u can make an educated guess that maybe u overshot ur sweetspot, and then u can simply just back ur test dose down 10mg. But if u end up continually feeling better over the course of 4-6 weeks, u can then try and titrate up ur dose again by 20mg, and repeat the process of monitoring how u feel over the next 4-6 weeks

So for anyone reading this, I would probably recommend doing it this way when using test cyp or enanthate (titrating dose up by 20mg/ week each time, as needed) vs using test prop, which I would still recommend only titrating up by 10mg/ week, as needed.

 

[Gman86]

@brookseth but ya the muscle soreness is definitely really weird. It sounds like it’s a little more pronounced for u, but it was still noticeable for me as well. I wonder what is the cause of it. I assume it’s not a good thing tho lol. I could be wrong, but I assume it’s a sign that muscle recovery is slightly decreased without all the test that’s usually present with a test base. Question is, what aspect of having less test is the cause.

Could it be having less dht? I know dht doesn’t really do much for muscle growth, but does it play a big role in muscle recovery? I know DHT plays a pretty big role in CNS activation, which helps with strength while lifting.

I guess it could be due to probably having less estrogen. I would assume estrogen plays a decent role in muscle recovery. This can easily be resolved, I would assume, by simply raising estrogen by increasing ur test dose

Do u have any thoughts? I can’t really think of any other aspect of being on a test base, vs a nandrolone base, that would be a factor, as far as as muscle soreness/ recovery goes. If anyone else has any thoughts on the subject feel free to chime in

I would actually have thought it would be the opposite tho, on a nandrolone base. Test is known to be better for strength, than nandrolone, but nandrolone is known to build muscle tissue better than test. So it’s very weird that we both noticed a bit make muscle soreness. I guess there’s a chance that the muscle soreness could indicate more muscle growth is occurring, but my gut/ instincts are telling me that’s probably not the case, and that the obv assumption might be the correct assumption. That increased muscle soreness could be an indicator of decreased muscle recovery. Because doesn’t a lot of guys report feeling less sore, days after a workout, once they get on TRT? Here’s a vid where Derek goes over a study showing that nandrolone is basically better at developing lean muscle tissue, mg for my, vs test

 

[brookseth]

My labs from a week before stopping my last protocol had my e2 at 59 pg/ml - and that was at 80mg a week primo and 160mg TE.
So primo didn't seem to really kill my estrogen that badly.
Also my primo is an enanthate but that doesn't really matter much at this point.

My first week when I was doing the NPP and HCG only my nipples were actually fairly sensitive so I was guessing the opposite actually - that my estrogen was high.

Regardless though - yea just planning to stay the course and see what happens. Maybe on my next shot I'll just do the 10mg TE all 3 days of the week - if anything it makes more sense to do that anyhow since it's 10mg each injection day then

 

[brookseth]

@Gman86 yea the soreness thing is totally beyond me. Honestly with my test / primo protocol I wouldnt get sore at all. Maybe just a little bit if I really pushed a workout - but nothing debilitating and for maybe a day tops.
My legs are STILL sore today

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Really hoping I can find a sweetspot with the nandrolone base where I feel and function better than I did on a test base. I’ll be honest, one of the main reasons I’m wanting the nandrolone base to work is to protect my hair long term. I can openly admit to being pretty vain lol.

I suspect the primobolan in your previous protocol was a far greater threat to your hairline than the test base was.

 

[Gman86]

My labs from a week before stopping my last protocol had my e2 at 59 pg/ml - and that was at 80mg a week primo and 160mg TE.
So primo didn't seem to really kill my estrogen that badly.
Also my primo is an enanthate but that doesn't really matter much at this point.

My first week when I was doing the NPP and HCG only my nipples were actually fairly sensitive so I was guessing the opposite actually - that my estrogen was high.

Regardless though - yea just planning to stay the course and see what happens. Maybe on my next shot I'll just do the 10mg TE all 3 days of the week - if anything it makes more sense to do that anyhow since it's 10mg each injection day then

Oh I meant enanthate. My primo is enanthate as well. But ya very similar half lives. Do u have an E2 reading on a similar dose of test without the primo or anything blocking E2? But ya the primo didn’t inhibit E2 for u as strongly as my experience has been. On 200 test and 100 primo, my E2 usually comes back in the 20’s

So nipple sensitivity is interesting. Cuz there’s nipple sensitivity that can occur when hormones are fluctuating, like during a protocol change. I’ve experienced that many many times. It’s usually brief and they don’t really get super sensitive. At least for me. And then there’s sensitivity that occurs prior to getting gyno, or while gyno is forming. I’ve also experienced that, and it’s a whole different thing. With that it was extremely intense sensitivity, to the point I would scratch my nipples until they bled. And it wasn’t a brief or intermittent sensitivity. It was an all day every day thing. That was while I was on hcg mono, for reference. So idk if it’s possible to say for sure that what u were experiencing was high E2 symptoms. But it’s possible. NPP is a fast ester, and gets in ur system quick. So that built up quick, while the test is slower to clear. So high nandrolone with highish test, with hcg in the mix, could definitely have had ur E2 on the higher end, and nandorlone sensitizes estrogen and prolactin receptors. So whatever estrogen and prolactin u has floating around could have been having a stronger effect than they normally would, at the receptor level

Ya 30mg/ week of test E is probably going to be closer to a lot of guys sweetspots, as far as their test dose goes with the nandrolone base, so it’s not a horrible place to start. Most important thing is to just not overshoot ur sweetspot. But I think ur still at a low risk to do that starting with 30mg of test enanthate and 180 NPP