Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[Vitamin_C]

Appt is Nov 15th with Endo, gonna ask for progesterone and saliva cortisol x4.

I have looked into CDs protocol and I will definitely be doing it after school is over where I can dedicate time to it. I think when I reported some GI issues it was because I ate left over food that didn't agree with me. Everything seems normal now.

I'd like to report some positive news though. Went to the gym yesterday for some chest and shoulders. Hit a PR on barbell bench (not a life time PR, a PR since this issue happened to me), and actually was able to get somewhat of a very weak shoulder pump. I usually get absolutely no pump at all. Felt good after shoulders so I threw in some biceps and triceps. Was able to get a small pump during biceps as well and felt a "burn" while doing triceps but did not get a pump. Even though it felt nothing like it used to it was better than nothing and definitely increased my mood.

Also I've been listening to music again the last 2-3 days on my way to my clinical rotations - definitely have shown an increase in mood and much less anxiety, almost non existent at times, which I reported to Simeoni in a private message.

Everything else physical remains the same, hair is getting terrible unfortunately

That is good news man, baby steps, it will take time but you will recover, you're already starting too, just remain positive. A positive mood will work wonders. I get my 24 hour cortisols from ZRT labs on amazon, they are about $150. Also, stress can cause you to shed more, I think once you're out of nursing school your mood should improve. I remember when I finished nursing school, I had a huge boost in my mood for months, it was awesome.

 

[nurselyfe]

That is good news man, baby steps, it will take time but you will recover, you're already starting too, just remain positive. A positive mood will work wonders. I get my 24 hour cortisols from ZRT labs on amazon, they are about $150. Also, stress can cause you to shed more, I think once you're out of nursing school your mood should improve. I remember when I finished nursing school, I had a huge boost in my mood for months, it was awesome.

During my first semester which was definitely my hardest, I didn't shed at all and I was stressed because I didn't pass my first two pathophysiology exams. Now I'm pulling straight As so I'm not sure my hair loss is due to stress, especially because it all starting happening when I murdered my E2. I'm sure I'll have an increase in mood in May when I'm finished, not doubting that.

Will keep this thread updated on any progress that I may make.

 

[lowe2sucks]

Beware of this product https://www.amazon.com/Life-Flo-DHE...TF8&qid=1511286492&sr=8-3&keywords=dhea+cream
Me and friend of mine crashed our estrogen using it (we actually used it to keep our estrogen higher since dhea should raise estrogen levels) and going through total hell.. I completely lost my personality again and just feeling like I am dying most of the day. Shit sucks dude I couldn't expect to crash my estrogen using DHEA. We stopped using it 4 months ago or so but symptoms only getting worse

 

[nurselyfe]

Beware of this product https://www.amazon.com/Life-Flo-DHE...TF8&qid=1511286492&sr=8-3&keywords=dhea+cream
Me and friend of mine crashed our estrogen using it (we actually used it to keep our estrogen higher since dhea should raise estrogen levels) and going through total hell.. I completely lost my personality again and just feeling like I am dying most of the day. Shit sucks dude I couldn't expect to crash my estrogen using DHEA. We stopped using it 4 months ago or so but symptoms only getting worse

My friend used the same exact product. He noticed great results from it in terms of energy and libido and did not get crashed E2 symptoms. As I discuseed with you, it increased your E2, this makes you (and me) worse.

 

[lowe2sucks]

I have bloodwork to prove it. I haven't used any AI.. I also had increased energy and libido first. Used it for a couple of months.. then when I applied dose I started to feel very out of it and disconnected feeling same that I got when I crashed from arimidex. Friend of mine told me after few doses that this cream made him feel like an old man and basically feels like crap now. I don't know what else could be. I would honestly never know if my friend woudn't tell me that.

 

[nurselyfe]

I have bloodwork to prove it. I haven't used any AI.. I also had increased energy and libido first. Used it for a couple of months.. then when I applied dose I started to feel very out of it and disconnected feeling same that I got when I crashed from arimidex. Friend of mine told me after few doses that this cream made him feel like an old man and basically feels like crap now. I don't know what else could be. I would honestly never know if my friend woudn't tell me that.

What was your protocol at the time, and what did your bloods reveal?

 

[lowe2sucks]

test cyp 40mg x2 weekly and dhea cream. first it was my e2 at 35 few months later 17 then 1 or 2 months later 7 (when it was 7 I wasn't using dhea cream) and pretty much stopped it few weeks I think before I got 17 result

 

[lowe2sucks]

are you on hcg simeoni?

 

[simeoni]

Well as of an update, id like to report that im doing somewhat better. I added HCG to my protocol two weeks ago. Im taking 125 IU ED. The addition of hcg did not worsen my condition. In all honesty im still sceptical about the E2 receptor theory - that was proposed by nurselyfe.

how are you doing at the moment lowe2sucks?

 

[lowe2sucks]

going through hell right now... about 3-4 weeks ago my e2 was 7 (but test was kinda low too only 300s) so my doctor changed protocol and about after 3rd shot of hcg I started to feel really damn crappy with short moments of feeling better.. first I thought maybe its just my test was low so changing to shots + hcg will fix it but I am feeling like total crap so my e2 indeed was absolutely crashed.. hopefully I will feel somewhat better soon because at this moment its barely tolerable
some weird thing I noticed my right ball (testicle) aches from time to time and its followed by either getting rid of some symptom or me feeling worse day after.. I was reading some post finasteride forums and some of them complain for pain in left testicle post crash. this is what I am experiencing now like full endocrine crash. same thing happened when I crashed my estrogen last time but before that I wasnt feeling near as bad. These estrogen crashes somehow screwed me up really bad to the point I am not functional and I don't know what happened I am just not the same as I was before this crap. I have anxiety, I don't have any confidence, I have bad anhedonia and just physically in pain, cognitive functioning declined badly and my body looks like crap and isnt responding to training and diet as before. I had my e2 too low in the past before this shit but I always recovered after few months tops and never felt as bad. hopefully its not permanent but man it sucks to go through this again taking into consideration that I didn't even used any AIs in years

 

[nurselyfe]

Well as of an update, id like to report that im doing somewhat better. I added HCG to my protocol two weeks ago. Im taking 125 IU ED. The addition of hcg did not worsen my condition. In all honesty im still sceptical about the E2 receptor theory - that was proposed by nurselyfe.

how are you doing at the moment lowe2sucks?

I still stand behind it 100%.

I've lost more than half my hair on my scalp in a matter of 3 months, it's completely dead. I've also lost a ton of body hair and it doesn't feel the same at all.

My skin is extremely dry. My nails hardly grow. Severe erectile dysfunction when before this I was able to go for 2-4 rounds with no issue and had a very uncontrollable libido. My body doesn't respond to training at all anymore and I have a lot less veins. I produce absolutely NO sebum on my body at all and have to moisturize my whole body every time I shower when I never had to do this because my body used to be so oily no matter the time of year it was.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I still stand behind it 100%.

I've lost more than half my hair on my scalp in a matter of 3 months, it's completely dead. I've also lost a ton of body hair and it doesn't feel the same at all.

My skin is extremely dry. My nails hardly grow. Severe erectile dysfunction when before this I was able to go for 2-4 rounds with no issue and had a very uncontrollable libido. My body doesn't respond to training at all anymore and I have a lot less veins. I produce absolutely NO sebum on my body at all and have to moisturize my whole body every time I shower when I never had to do this because my body used to be so oily no matter the time of year it was.

Androgens are the key player in hair growth, not estrogens...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18844710

 

[nurselyfe]

Androgens are the key player in hair growth, not estrogens...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18844710

My hair on my body still grows, pretty quickly too. But now some hairs literally do not grow out of my skin. Id say about 40% of them don't now. Luckily I'm a hairy guy to start off.

My facial hair has be nearly unaffected. I think both hormones play a key role in hair growth. Androgens more in facial and chest/shoulder region bc that's where my hair growth has been least affected. But all hair on my body has become coarse and dry. Estrogen affects this.

You really can't argue this. I've provided blood work and it says my thyroid is fine and my T levels are good.

 

[simeoni]

Have you been able to find anything from the medical literature that would support your theory?

Other than the symptoms you mentioned, how are you doing at the moment? Any libido, drive, ability to enjoy things?

Like I wrote in the PM, I still do not feel that im fully back to pre E2 crash state. Testosterone just does not seem to have same kick it once had. Overall I have seen a clear improvement, but im still trying understand what is holding me back.

When I have the extra funds for it, Im planning to take the following test's:

- NutrEval from genova (metabolic analysis)
- Cortisol levels
- Full androgen panel
- Progesterone

My thyroid was good last time I checked.

 

[nurselyfe]

Have you been able to find anything from the medical literature that would support your theory?

Other than the symptoms you mentioned, how are you doing at the moment? Any libido, drive, ability to enjoy things?

Like I wrote in the PM, I still do not feel that im fully back to pre E2 crash state. Testosterone just does not seem to have same kick it once had. Overall I have seen a clear improvement, but im still trying understand what is holding me back.

When I have the extra funds for it, Im planning to take the following test's:

- NutrEval from genova (metabolic analysis)
- Cortisol levels
- Full androgen panel
- Progesterone

My thyroid was good last time I checked.

I have checked every single day for the last 3 months using my universities database and have found nothing. I do not think I ever will.

You must understand we are not gods, it's only 2017, and this kind of medicine is still new and changing. You cannot deny the men out there who have suffered permanent symptoms from Propecia. A lot of these men just have hypogonadism
or other metabolic issues that get better over time. However there's tons of men who have tried everything and nothing has an effect. High doses of DHT, T, etc all have no effect or make things worse. This exactly what happened to me, estrogen has only made things worse for me permanently.

Libido is now worse than ever. Last time I spoke here I still had SOME, now it's almost none. Erections are horrible.. Drive is lower. Ability to enjoy things is low but I think that's just related to me being upset about my situation. Lost more muscle and gained more fat. Hair on scalp is getting extremely bad. When i work out I sweat a lot and my skin gets cool and clammy. Never had this. Appetite is at an all time low. I used to eat 3300 - 4000 calories a day. Now I barely make it to 2000.

This is all coming from someone who never had a problem with any of these symptoms in my entire life. Always extremely outgoing, insane drive and libido, skin bursting pumps in the gym, shredded physique all year around, so oily that I had to shower twice a day.

I really hope that any patient that sees Vitamin C one day isn't ignorantly turned down just because something isn't a textbook. Real shame because this what has caused deaths and lawsuits in the medical community and give us a bad name.

I promise everyone here that this will be in the medical literature soon enough.

 

[simeoni]

Well it's clear that you are definitively suffering from something that emerged after your crash. Hopefully you will find a open minded specialist that can take a thorough look at your situation.

I'm not really familiar on how you can test the binding potential of the estrogen receptors. If its possible i'm sure that getting that test will not be easy.

I would also pull that salivary cortisol and serum progesterone at some point.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Why would I turn down a patient with your symptoms? I might not agree with WHY you think you are experiencing what you are experiencing, and I am not saying your symptoms aren't real, I just disagree with your proposed etiology because there is no empirical evidence that this could happen.

Many of your symptoms sound very similar to PFS, and I am assuming you've browsed the PFS forums due to your hair issues, those forums are toxic. I believe PFS is nothing more than chronic fatigue syndrome, the anxiety, and depression caused by PFS is perpetuated by a fear of normal male functionings not returning (this has been a proposed theory from people who cured themselves of PFS) . When you are in a constant state of anxiety and depressed because of your anxiety, you will not have a libido and erections will be poor. There was a study on Finasteride where the placebo group reported a laundry list of sexual side effects compared to the Finasteride group, this should clue in any researcher that there is a large nocebo effect at play here.

I am certainly not saying that these symptoms are "made up" at all, they are very real, but millions of other people have the exact same symptoms (fatigue, low libido, ED, depression, anxiety, insomnia) and its labeled as chronic fatigue syndrome, PFS is not some "stand alone" issue. I feel like you've adopted many symptoms of PFS and created this "estrogen insensitivity" out of it.

Go to the PFS forums and make a thread that Finasteride made you grow horns and watch how many people will chime and say "ME TOO!!". The more studies they keep doing on this phenomenon the more a nocebo pattern emerges. All of your reported side effects are nearly word for word PFS symptoms.

 

[lowe2sucks]

Alright..
Is anybody here experiencing these symptoms even with estrogen level higher then 20 post e2 crash

1. Increased risk for fractures, most commonly hip fractures.
   Body temperature changes.
   Decreased sexual libido
   Skin irritations
   Vocal changes
   Weight gain
   Gonad size changes
   Body odor changesAnother source showed that low estrogen can even cause adrenal glands to weaken and lowers serotonin in the brain!!
   "http://voices.yahoo.com/the-dangers-low-estrogen-men-10578027.html"
   Joint Cracking or Soreness
   Lack of libido - but powerful erections in the case of sufficient DHT levels.
   Heart pump changes, fluttering sensation due to lower blood pressure.
   Skin changes; hyperpigmentation or pale-looking skin.
   Hair follicle inflammation - excessive hair growth.
   Fatigue and depression.
   Anxiety / Obsessions
   Blunted emotion.
   Lack of trust for others; jealousy.
   (Since estrogen helps increase serotonin in the brain, low levels cause may cause you to become impulsive, irritable, depressed or even manic
   Low estrogen levels also can lead to the weakening of your adrenal glands, and this can even cause certain forms of depression.)
   
   
   
   
   • Fatigue along the lines of sleepiness
   • hypersomnia (sleeping too much and too often)
   • strong erections but limited sensitivity
   • loss of erections
   • osteoporosis and osteopenia
   • joint pain, clicking or popping joints
   • eye fatigue (eyes seem more tired despite adequate sleep, dark circles)
   • loss of libido (interest in sex)
   • difficulty retaining water (constant urination)
   • anxiety, depression, irritability

 

[nurselyfe]

Why would I turn down a patient with your symptoms? I might not agree with WHY you think you are experiencing what you are experiencing, and I am not saying your symptoms aren't real, I just disagree with your proposed etiology because there is no empirical evidence that this could happen.

Many of your symptoms sound very similar to PFS, and I am assuming you've browsed the PFS forums due to your hair issues, those forums are toxic. I believe PFS is nothing more than chronic fatigue syndrome, the anxiety, and depression caused by PFS is perpetuated by a fear of normal male functionings not returning (this has been a proposed theory from people who cured themselves of PFS) . When you are in a constant state of anxiety and depressed because of your anxiety, you will not have a libido and erections will be poor. There was a study on Finasteride where the placebo group reported a laundry list of sexual side effects compared to the Finasteride group, this should clue in any researcher that there is a large nocebo effect at play here.

I am certainly not saying that these symptoms are "made up" at all, they are very real, but millions of other people have the exact same symptoms (fatigue, low libido, ED, depression, anxiety, insomnia) and its labeled as chronic fatigue syndrome, PFS is not some "stand alone" issue. I feel like you've adopted many symptoms of PFS and created this "estrogen insensitivity" out of it.

Go to the PFS forums and make a thread that Finasteride made you grow horns and watch how many people will chime and say "ME TOO!!". The more studies they keep doing on this phenomenon the more a nocebo pattern emerges. All of your reported side effects are nearly word for word PFS symptoms.

Youre saying i'm psychosomatically creating my symptoms. Before I read a single PFS thread I had all these symptoms. And again, I never had anxiety or depression in my entire life. As we speak right now, I am not feeling either and my physical symptoms still exist. More than ever. I've gone to the gym upset before and still got an insane pump, but I haven't got a pump in 5 months. I've been through SUCH rough times prior to this, and it never dampened my libido. My libido couldn't ever be satiated. Libido isn't even my primary issue. Severe dry skin, lips, and mouth, severe hair loss (happens in women who take AIs for breast cancer therapy, and guys who use letro to destroy gyno), loss of aggression, strength, blood
flow to muscles, constantly flat... I could keep going on.

Im simply using PFS as way to show you that these types of things exist where inhibitors can cause persistent symptoms.

If you even paid a little attention to my posts I don't have anything like PFS, minus the libido which is expected with a non functioning ER. I have normal energy, great sleep, beard growth, no penile shrinkage or loss of sensitivity. Also, if you really analyzed PFS, you'll see that some guys simply had hypogonadism and got better over time- this isn't even PFS. Dr. Chrisler even said this. However, there's men who have not recovered and tried large amounts of T & DHT with no response and even got worse.

This is exactly what happened to me. Everytime I increased my estrogen I got permanently worse.

Lol and lastly, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. You will NOT find it. I'm aware of this. My argument is that it is something we have not studied yet in medicine and absolutely needs more research on.

Trust me I know the importance of data, research, and published literature. You're not talking to an idiot. I was a cell and molecular biology major, current nursing student, and future DNP. I look at evidenced based practice all day. I see where you're coming from and I try not to get frustrated because honestly if I was you, and someone was telling me this I'd say they're crazy. But take a step back, realize I have presented solid BW, do not have CFS symptoms, and acquired this all immediately from an arimidex mediate E2 crash.

 

[Vitamin_C]

//minus the libido which is expected with a non functioning ER.//

Why did the case study of the man born with estrogen insensitivity have normal sexual function, including nocturnal erections and no ED/libido issues? Libido/ED is much deeper than just a single hormone.

With the new data emerging from PFS studies, you cannot rule out nocebo effect, considering placebo group (those who didnt take finasteride) reported a laundry list of sexual sides despite them getting sugar pills. There is no solid human data that finasteride does anything to receptors at all, its a theory, but there is scant data to back this up. People have recovered from PFS, that shows you that it's not permanent at all but they had to put in work to change their mind/body/gut. As for estrogen insensitivity, that has even fewer data to support it other than a few anecdotal accounts. We just can't make up stuff in medicine, there needs to be data behind it, even the supposed data and theory from moderators on PFS forums is lacking credibility, although their efforts were quite good. I also find it interesting that older men with BPH who take Finasteride at 5mg/day report less sexual sides than 20-30's men who take 1mg per day, the paradox of PFS continues...

//However, there's men who have not recovered and tried large amounts of T & DHT with no response and even got worse.//

Because its not black and white, there are guys with high T that have libido/ed issues, there are guys with low T that have no issues with libido. When my T was low, I could get rock hard and had a great libido and great mood, we know that hormones are important, but they are not the end all be all with the human psyche, we barely know anything about mental health, many theories, nothing solid.

//Lol and lastly, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.//

You could be the first person this happened to in medical literature, but you must prove it first in which you are refusing to do, the pharmacology behind Arimidex does not support this and this is a heavily studied drug and we have had millions of patients take tremendously high doses of this medication for long periods of time, DATA would be somewhere, think of all the breast cancer women who take this medication for 7-10 years @ 1mg a day, we have a large sample size, we have absolutely ZERO evidence this happens. If we need more evidence for this problem, you really should step up for the sake of science. The easiest way to do this would be to come off TRT and get your baseline levels back, if your E2 skyrockets, congratulations, your E2 is skyrocketing because its not getting used by receptors.

Also, I've noticed a trend with you, your symptoms seem to come and go, one minute you are having anxiety depression, penile shrinkage etc, next minute your not. I cannot keep up with your symptom list anymore to establish a baseline.



Also, I've had joint popping with low E2, in range E2, and high E2, I don't see the correlation with the two. My wife has joint popping as well, and she's never taken an AI and her estrogen levels are within range. I don't see how half these problems have to do with insensitivity to estrogen. Anyways, I am getting burned out on this thread and it doesn't seem like we are getting any other contributers, so I am done here and unsubscribing.

You either have this problem or you don't. You have not been diagnosed with this problem other than a self-diagnosis, you cannot be 100% sure you are insensitive to estrogen, so its possible E2 is being used properly in your body. You can either let this defeat you or define you. Start fixing your body, the body always wants to return to homeostasis and has been shown to heal itself. I am 100% certain you can fix yourself but you HAVE to believe and you may have to make some drastic changes to your lifestyle.