Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

[nurselyfe]

The mind is extremely powerful and can certainly create symptoms that manifest into physical symptoms. Sometimes things happen to us that can't be explained either. I had an issue a few years ago that had me getting spinal taps, MRI's, etc... I had all the symptoms of MS. I ended up at the Mayo Clinic in MN and the explanation I was given that I was "some type of metabolic disorder" and that "something ordinary in my body was acting extraordinary". In other words they had no clue what was up... Over a six month time frame all symptoms subsided and I was back to normal....

All of this happened just after a HORRIBLE experience I had on Clomid... Was there a connection? I have no idea and nobody else could figure it out either...

Guys. I'm fully aware the mind is powerful. Back when I was 16 I thought I injured my back, I was paranoid about it. It hurt so bad. One morning, I woke up and it was COMPLETELY gone. There's no doubt I was giving myself psychosomatic pain. But this issue is not that. I've never experienced anything like this before.

also, we can not compare congential abnormalities with acquired. it may not work on the ssme
mechamism.

 

[Checkdis]

I’m curious if one were to hypothetically crash their estrogen to the point it was nonexistent for a prolonged time, would that individual be able to fully recover from side effects using some form of TRT? Seems back in April I was at rock bottom due to taking too much Adex.

I have been on Clomid 25mg for just about 2 months now. My recents labs were promising but for some reason today I am back at square one with urination.

 

[nurselyfe]

I’m curious if one were to hypothetically crash their estrogen to the point it was nonexistent for a prolonged time, would that individual be able to fully recover from side effects using some form of TRT? Seems back in April I was at rock bottom due to taking too much Adex.

I have been on Clomid 25mg for just about 2 months now. My recents labs were promising but for some reason today I am back at square one with urination.

Yes. You should be fine, if you're urinating a lot and you feel dried out with low estrogen you still have full receptor function.

 

[Checkdis]

Yes. You should be fine, if you're urinating a lot and you feel dried out with low estrogen you still have full receptor function.

Alright thank you, it has just been 6 months with this battle. And Clomid has been 2 months. Just everyday is different. My Gut is killing me, loss of appetite, frequent urination. Just want to know if Clomid is the best treatment for this or should I go straight to HCG or Cypinate. I already have a kid not planning on having anymore lol. I just want the quickest recovery. Although I have heard horror stories of people going 1-2 years

 

[nurselyfe]

Alright thank you, it has just been 6 months with this battle. And Clomid has been 2 months. Just everyday is different. My Gut is killing me, loss of appetite, frequent urination. Just want to know if Clomid is the best treatment for this or should I go straight to HCG or Cypinate. I already have a kid not planning on having anymore lol. I just want the quickest recovery. Although I have heard horror stories of people going 1-2 years

Sounds like you have chronic low estrogen due to the fact you're simply not aromatizing enough. Can I see your most recent labs? I would get a new set since your issues are worsening. If this is the case where your E2 is low on 25mg clomid every day which I consider a hefty dose, I would talk to your care provider about a T Cyp & hCG protocol. Or at least T cyp since fertility is no longer an issue for you.

 

[Checkdis]

Sounds like you have chronic low estrogen due to the fact you're simply not aromatizing enough. Can I see your most recent labs? I would get a new set since your issues are worsening. If this is the case where your E2 is low on 25mg clomid every day which I consider a hefty dose, I would talk to your care provider about a T Cyp & hCG protocol. Or at least T cyp since fertility is no longer an issue for you.

I posted my recent labs here. And actually waiting on one taken yesterday when I was experiencing those side effects.

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...-Frequent-Urination-Hypogonadism-(crashed-E2)

 

[lowe2sucks]

what I noticed is when e2 is low you lose the brakes on your neurotransmitters and you burn them like crazy.. when it raises back again you feel like an ass and think you have adrenal fatigue or something because you are burnt out.. so it takes a while to replenish neurotransmitters so you can feel ok again.. that's because estradiol is connected to MAO-B

 

[Checkdis]

what I noticed is when e2 is low you lose the brakes on your neurotransmitters and you burn them like crazy.. when it raises back again you feel like an ass and think you have adrenal fatigue or something because you are burnt out.. so it takes a while to replenish neurotransmitters so you can feel ok again.. that's because estradiol is connected to MAO-B

Makes sense if Ativan stops all symptoms in it’s tracks. Only thing that actually works, but I do not want to be addicted to benzos

 

[simeoni]

Ive been having pretty decent days lately. Still not fully back to my old self but definitively better. One of the things I decided to try was to take a break from my scrotal t cream application. I was taking a small dose of tostran on a EOD basis.

One of the things I found was that DHT can actually be a estrogen receptor antagonist. By having high levels of DHT - via scrotal application - may perhaps hinder ones recovery from an estrogen crash.

Heres the study about it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/6542571/

Ill probably get back on the gel at some point but for now Ill see if my condition improves by taking a few weeks off.

 

[nurselyfe]

TSH 1.4 (.45-4.5)
fT4 1.26 (.82-1.77)
fT3 2.8 (2.0-4.4)
Antibodies normal
Total Cholesterol 121 (100-199)
Triglycerides 74 (0-149)
VLDL 15 (5-40)
HDL 36 (>39)
LDL 70 (0-99)
TT 749 (264 - 916)
FT 19.9 (6.3-23)
SHGB 31.8 (16-55.9)
E2 26.5 (7.6-42.6)
Aldosterone 4.7 (0-30)
Renin 0.799 (0.167-5.380)

CBC w/ Diff was all normal and in line with my reports from 1-2 years ago, except for platelets which was low at 141 (150 - 379) which usually hover around 160 and
Eos (Absolute) 0.6 High (0.0 - 0.4), these usually hover at 0.1.


CMP was normal, kidneys are fine, electrolytes normal

Any thoughts on my Aldo & Renin? Is it low? I know that consuming sodium decreases Aldo - I have a pretty high sodium diet, ALWAYS have. Can we test Arginine Vasopressin?

 

[at15]

looking good, any change in symptoms?

 

[nurselyfe]

looking good, any change in symptoms?

1.5 weeks ago, took horny goat weed, loss erections for 4 days. looked up iicarin - potent phytoestrogen.

this past weekend, drank for the first time in awhile on friday and woke up the next morning with more low E2 symptoms. lasted for 3 days. monday night, i got an occipital migraine. only had 2 prior to this in my entire life, which were both caused by my first E2 crashes. I would stop the arimidex, within 3-5 days, get a migraine with vision loss, wake up the next morning feeling 80% normal including loss of the water bloat.

So, I got excited monday night when I had the migraine, thought I was going back to normal but I woke up feeling like I have for the past two months - just dry skin, water retention, flat mood, flat muscles, etc.

Now main difference from now and 2 weeks ago less libido, less firm erections, less muscle fullness (not that I had much to begin with because of this), and even worse workouts.

Edit: By the way, I've been measuring my urine output over the night. Usually urinate 1L (1000mLs) every night, regardless if I stop drinking water way before I go to sleep. This never used to happen to me, if I didn't drink water, I wouldn't urinate and my urine would be very dark yellow in the morning. Now it's always the same diluted yellow color.

 

[simeoni]

Well I guess that excludes any form of hypothyroidism. Did you also pull cortisol?

TSH 1.4 (.45-4.5)
fT4 1.26 (.82-1.77)
fT3 2.8 (2.0-4.4)
Antibodies normal
Total Cholesterol 121 (100-199)
Triglycerides 74 (0-149)
VLDL 15 (5-40)
HDL 36 (>39)
LDL 70 (0-99)
TT 749 (264 - 916)
FT 19.9 (6.3-23)
SHGB 31.8 (16-55.9)
E2 26.5 (7.6-42.6)
Aldosterone 4.7 (0-30)
Renin 0.799 (0.167-5.380)

CBC w/ Diff was all normal and in line with my reports from 1-2 years ago, except for platelets which was low at 141 (150 - 379) which usually hover around 160 and
Eos (Absolute) 0.6 High (0.0 - 0.4), these usually hover at 0.1.


CMP was normal, kidneys are fine, electrolytes normal

Any thoughts on my Aldo & Renin? Is it low? I know that consuming sodium decreases Aldo - I have a pretty high sodium diet, ALWAYS have. Can we test Arginine Vasopressin?

 

[nurselyfe]

Well I guess that excludes any form of hypothyroidism. Did you also pull cortisol?

I did not. But two months ago a I had a 2:30 pm reading of 12 which fell in the normal range for that time.

 

[simeoni]

As an update, I would like to report that I took a bigger shot of testosterone this week. Nothing drastic just my old protocol of taking 0,15ml of TE E4D. Also I have taken 500iu:s of HCG - in two 250 iu doses.

now I believe that this protocol should lead to a somewhat elevated estrogen - in my case. According to nurselyfes theory this should lead to a worsened condition.

What I have noticed is that the day of the injection was pretty decent - not great but decent. The days after that im still struggling with one of my biggest symptoms which is apathy. Everything good related to dopamine is missing from my life. I do not seem to be having any of the other physical symptoms that nurselyfe and lowe2sucks are experiencing.

This all makes me believe that my main problem is a some sort of dysfunction in my dopaminergic pathways.

 

[Vitamin_C]

TSH 1.4 (.45-4.5)
fT4 1.26 (.82-1.77)
fT3 2.8 (2.0-4.4)
Antibodies normal
Total Cholesterol 121 (100-199)
Triglycerides 74 (0-149)
VLDL 15 (5-40)
HDL 36 (>39)
LDL 70 (0-99)
TT 749 (264 - 916)
FT 19.9 (6.3-23)
SHGB 31.8 (16-55.9)
E2 26.5 (7.6-42.6)
Aldosterone 4.7 (0-30)
Renin 0.799 (0.167-5.380)

CBC w/ Diff was all normal and in line with my reports from 1-2 years ago, except for platelets which was low at 141 (150 - 379) which usually hover around 160 and
Eos (Absolute) 0.6 High (0.0 - 0.4), these usually hover at 0.1.


CMP was normal, kidneys are fine, electrolytes normal

Any thoughts on my Aldo & Renin? Is it low? I know that consuming sodium decreases Aldo - I have a pretty high sodium diet, ALWAYS have. Can we test Arginine Vasopressin?

See, you're not pissing out all your electrolytes and minerals. If I were you, I'd look into those aldosterone and renin numbers, you appear hypoadrenal which is probably causing all of your problems and then compound the fact that you are worrying about an imaginary problem that doesn't exist in medical literature makes your current condition worse. You're literally manifesting this E2 condition which is probably caused by something causing chronic fatigue syndrome which has a myriad of phsyical and psychological effects. Your E2 is perfect, trust your labs, trust your body.

You need a 24 hour saliva cortisol test done. I bet my mortgage you are low cortisol. Adrenal fatigue can be really nasty, 3/4 of your symptoms you listed have little to do with estrogen and more to do with hypoadrenal. No labs to show muscle wasting either? MRI for arthritis?

If knockout were possible via Arimidex, scientists wouldn't have to genetically modify mice to knockout the receptor genetically, they could just feed the mice a bunch of Arimidex. As long as Arimidex has been out and utilized by millions of people, this condition simply doesn't exist.

Also, by what mechanism does increasing estrogen make your problems worse? Can you list a single study to demonstrate this claim outside of simply high estrogen symptoms causing side effects? If you cannot, it is simply bro science.

 

[nurselyfe]

See, you're not pissing out all your electrolytes and minerals. If I were you, I'd look into those aldosterone and renin numbers, you appear hypoadrenal which is probably causing all of your problems and then compound the fact that you are worrying about an imaginary problem that doesn't exist in medical literature makes your current condition worse. You're literally manifesting this E2 condition which is probably caused by something causing chronic fatigue syndrome which has a myriad of phsyical and psychological effects. Your E2 is perfect, trust your labs, trust your body.

You need a 24 hour saliva cortisol test done. I bet my mortgage you are low cortisol. Adrenal fatigue can be really nasty, 3/4 of your symptoms you listed have little to do with estrogen and more to do with hypoadrenal. No labs to show muscle wasting either? MRI for arthritis?

If knockout were possible via Arimidex, scientists wouldn't have to genetically modify mice to knockout the receptor genetically, they could just feed the mice a bunch of Arimidex. As long as Arimidex has been out and utilized by millions of people, this condition simply doesn't exist.

Also, by what mechanism does increasing estrogen make your problems worse? Can you list a single study to demonstrate this claim outside of simply high estrogen symptoms causing side effects? If you cannot, it is simply bro science.

Never bet your life/mortgage/career on something if you're not 100% sure. My cortisol is fine, I've gotten it tested. and I don't even have hypoadrenal symptoms, at all. I don't have chronic fatigue syndrome, in fact my energy is the same as it's always been which is good. Ill get this saliva cortisol test done just because you asked (barring that my endo allows it). I'm not manifesting anything. I never said my E2 numbers were out of whack, I always said they looked good. Can't believe i'm repeating myself but I have visible symptoms. Extreme hairloss (NO familial MPB, had incredible hair right until I crushed my estrogen, it never shed even on 500mg T. Trust me it wasn't going anywhere for a long time, and it's diffuse hairloss not recession), severe dry skin, ED issues (and i currently have no anxiety or depression), cannot build muscle or get a pump at all, brittle nails, SIGNIFICANT drop in blood pressure, my nipples are completely flat now when they always used to be puffy at times. Literally symptoms that are visible to the human eye. It has nothing to do with my mind.


I also never said this was in the medical literature and always thought the same thing you just said, if they found out how I did this to myself they wouldn't have to genetically alter the ER gene in rats to cause knockout.

I also don't know what mechanism it is but in the past, increased estrogen made me feel good, euphoric, watery, and solid libido. My increased dosage in test shots would do the same. Now they make me feel worse and give me further low E2 symptoms. Definitely not bro science considering I am visibly in severe distress when ever my estrogen goes up or I take a SERM.

You can continue to ignorantly deny it all you want, and regardless if you think this is possible or not, I still do not feel a fraction of how I used to and my labs look near perfect - yet I have a myriad of symptoms that I've never ever had before. Can you explain this or suggest something helpful rather then put words in my mouth? I never even said I was pissing out minerals, had arthritis, or had bad labs.

Lastly, I am trusting my body, and it's telling me something is NOT right. I know how it should look and feel... and right now it feels completely foreign to me.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Never bet your life/mortgage/career on something if you're not 100% sure. My cortisol is fine, I've gotten it tested. and I don't even have hypoadrenal symptoms, at all. I don't have chronic fatigue syndrome, in fact my energy is the same as it's always been which is good. Ill get this saliva cortisol test done just because you asked (barring that my endo allows it). I'm not manifesting anything. I never said my E2 numbers were out of whack, I always said they looked good. Can't believe i'm repeating myself but I have visible symptoms. Extreme hairloss (NO familial MPB, had incredible hair right until I crushed my estrogen, it never shed even on 500mg T. Trust me it wasn't going anywhere for a long time, and it's diffuse hairloss not recession), severe dry skin, ED issues (and i currently have no anxiety or depression), cannot build muscle or get a pump at all, brittle nails, SIGNIFICANT drop in blood pressure, my nipples are completely flat now when they always used to be puffy at times. Literally symptoms that are visible to the human eye. It has nothing to do with my mind.


I also never said this was in the medical literature and always thought the same thing you just said, if they found out how I did this to myself they wouldn't have to genetically alter the ER gene in rats to cause knockout.

I also don't know what mechanism it is but in the past, increased estrogen made me feel good, euphoric, watery, and solid libido. My increased dosage in test shots would do the same. Now they make me feel worse and give me further low E2 symptoms. Definitely not bro science considering I am visibly in severe distress when ever my estrogen goes up or I take a SERM.

You can continue to ignorantly deny it all you want, and regardless if you think this is possible or not, I still do not feel a fraction of how I used to and my labs look near perfect - yet I have a myriad of symptoms that I've never ever had before. Can you explain this or suggest something helpful rather then put words in my mouth? I never even said I was pissing out minerals, had arthritis, or had bad labs.

Lastly, I am trusting my body, and it's telling me something is NOT right. I know how it should look and feel... and right now it feels completely foreign to me.

Definitely get saliva Cortisol tested. I would also look into doing CDnuts PFS protocol, you may have to make some extreme changes to your diet/lifestyle....fixing gut/gluten free/paleo, potentially water fasting if its bad enough. Your body will heal itself if its not busy detoxing other issues. I bet if you detoxed hardcore and changed your diet you will start to feel better. Go to a naturopath and get your gut fixed IMO.

 

[cleverusername]

I just want to chime in on the mind is a powerful thing part of this conversation.

When I first began TRT with my current provider, I was given Anastozole .22mg to be taken twice a week. I had already read on the usage of AI's and how one needs to be careful to not crash their E2. Having been at a previous protocol of 50mg Test C every 3.5 days (E2 was 40.5 @ this protocol), I was also increased to 70mg Test twice a week to go along with the AI. For 3 weeks or so I felt fine, then I slowly began to deteriorate, fatigue increased, depression got stronger as well. I started reading more on the AI and its side effects, soon I was experiencing joint pain, frequent urination, dry flaky skin, anxiety as well as depression, a few more things as well. I was convinced I had crashed my E2! My provider sent me in for lab work, and I instantly stopped the AI after that. Within 2 days I was feeling better, depression was clearing, joint pain was gone, anxiety was far less than the previous days. I had crashed my E2, things are great now, I will not need a AI while on TRT. A few days go went by and I got a phone call, my E2 was 58 on the sensitive test! I was told to go back onto the AI, and add a 3rd dose per week. I took my treatment out of my hands that day and gave it to my provider. I got off the TRT forums for a while, as recommended by my provider (Melissa @ Defy). Doing this cleared my mind of all the things that could go wrong, and left me to deal with me, not what I was reading. The AI 3 times a week got my E2 done to 30 and I feel fine, no high or low symptoms to speak of any more. In short, my mind had convinced me that I was crashed, and even developed symptoms of a crash.

 

[nurselyfe]

Definitely get saliva Cortisol tested. I would also look into doing CDnuts PFS protocol, you may have to make some extreme changes to your diet/lifestyle....fixing gut/gluten free/paleo, potentially water fasting if its bad enough. Your body will heal itself if its not busy detoxing other issues. I bet if you detoxed hardcore and changed your diet you will start to feel better. Go to a naturopath and get your gut fixed IMO.

Appt is Nov 15th with Endo, gonna ask for progesterone and saliva cortisol x4.

I have looked into CDs protocol and I will definitely be doing it after school is over where I can dedicate time to it. I think when I reported some GI issues it was because I ate left over food that didn't agree with me. Everything seems normal now.

I'd like to report some positive news though. Went to the gym yesterday for some chest and shoulders. Hit a PR on barbell bench (not a life time PR, a PR since this issue happened to me), and actually was able to get somewhat of a very weak shoulder pump. I usually get absolutely no pump at all. Felt good after shoulders so I threw in some biceps and triceps. Was able to get a small pump during biceps as well and felt a "burn" while doing triceps but did not get a pump. Even though it felt nothing like it used to it was better than nothing and definitely increased my mood.

Also I've been listening to music again the last 2-3 days on my way to my clinical rotations - definitely have shown an increase in mood and much less anxiety, almost non existent at times, which I reported to Simeoni in a private message.

Everything else physical remains the same, hair is getting terrible unfortunately