TT increased, both FT and E2 decreased!

[Alive]

In april when I was on propinate daily and HCG

TT 766
FT 34.6
E2 32.2


Now after 1-2 months back on cypionate 32mg EOD and cutting down on HCG, still no AI:

TT 853
FT 23.1
E2 24.9

It is written "Roche ECLIA methodology" in front of Estradiol. Is that not "sensitive"? Blood draw was done some 30 hours after the injection.


Anyways how is that possible? What causes lower FT? I'd say I felt better back in April. Can it be natural production results in more FT?

 

[Vince Carter]

Your test resutls are pretty much void anyway, you're testing in the wrong time frame (EOD = ~48hrs, not 30), wrong E testing, then you changed Esters and don't even say how much Prop you were using. You've been here for awhile to give vague posts and be using the wrong testing. We can't help when you don't do your part...

 

[Nelson Vergel]

You changed protocols, time passed by, you changed esters, you changed hCG dose. Many reasons why!

 

[Alive]

Propionate dose was the same amount, just done daily i.e. 16mg/day. Wouldn't your levels be pretty much stable if you inject cypionate EOD (except shortly after an injection)?

Yeah too many things changed but if TT goes up and E2 comes down I expect FT to increase not decrease.

Emotionally I feel better now but physically worse.

P.S. It was "Estradiol sensitive" in the prescription.

 

[Cataceous]

With cypionate you are averaging (16 mg * 70%) = 11.2 mg T per day. With propionate it was (16 mg * 83.7%) = 13.4 mg T per day, 20% more testosterone then. When was the test relative to injections? If this is a trough value and your SHBG hasn't changed then your serum testosterone with propionate is showing a variability of maybe 30% about the mean. This is certainly plausible. My values have averaged about 40%.

The standard free testosterone test should be disregarded; it is not accurate. Do you happen to have SHBG measurements to go with these values? If so then you can get a better idea of free testosterone using the Tru-T calculator. The alternative is to test free T with one of the expensive methods, such as equilibrium dialysis.

Regarding the estradiol tests, if the same lab and type of test were used both times then a relative comparison is valid. But hCG use complicates trying to understand the results. For me, using 700-1050 IU per week automatically adds ~18 pg/mL to my total estradiol, even over a wide range of testosterone doses.

... Wouldn't your levels be pretty much stable if you inject cypionate EOD (except shortly after an injection)?
...

Yes, this is my experience. Levels have been very stable when measured one day post-injection or immediately pre-injection.

 

[Vince Carter]

Propionate dose was the same amount, just done daily i.e. 16mg/day. Wouldn't your levels be pretty much stable if you inject cypionate EOD (except shortly after an injection)?

Yeah too many things changed but if TT goes up and E2 comes down I expect FT to increase not decrease.

Either youre listening, or your not. Good luck with your train of thought on this one....your expectations are all wrong.

 

[Alive]

Either youre listening, or your not. Good luck with your train of thought on this one....your expectations are all wrong.

Roid rage

 

[DS3]

In april when I was on propinate daily and HCG

TT 766
FT 34.6
E2 32.2


Now after 1-2 months back on cypionate 32mg EOD and cutting down on HCG, still no AI:

TT 853
FT 23.1
E2 24.9

It is written "Roche ECLIA methodology" in front of Estradiol. Is that not "sensitive"? Blood draw was done some 30 hours after the injection.


Anyways how is that possible? What causes lower FT? I'd say I felt better back in April. Can it be natural production results in more FT?

I have heard from numerous doctors such as Dr. Rob Kominiarek say that propionate increased DHT levels more so than cypionate or enanthate. Guys usually feel better with higher DHT levels.

My next statement won't really answer your question, but it may influence your thinking. You are honestly dealing with very minimal true changes in hormone levels. Yes, your test showed a 33% reduction in FT. However, it isn't like you were at 1100 ng/dL (total) back in April with a FT of 45, and then dropped to 500 ng/dL total currently with a FT of 15. Your fluctuations are actually very minimal in reality.

E2 could certainly have been decreased by cutting down on HCG. As Cataceuous stated, an increase in SHBG, for whatever reason, could be the reason you are seeing a decrease (minimal decrease) in free testosterone.

Also, 16 mg per day of propionate will result in more testosterone than 32 mg eod of Cypionate because of the size of the ester and the amount of hormone left after the ester has been cleaved off. So you are actually taking slightly less testosterone with your current protocol than you were with the propionate.

 

[Gman86]

Was just looking over my propionate labs, and it looks like propionate might increase dht slightly more. If it does, it’s by around 10-15 points it seems. That’s obviously just my personal experience

 

[Appassionato]

@Alive just ignore whoever tells you that that the Roche-Eclia method to measure E2 is unreliable and useless.
It has been discussed several times on the forum and it has been proven to be a wrong statement.

It's an obsession of a couple of users on this forum that it's only helping labs to get almost the double of the money for the same exact test.

Regarding your question, DS3 answered it pretty well.

 

[Gman86]

The standard E2 test has actually been more reliable than the sens E2 test, in my experience. I get them both done every time I get labs, as well as free E2. Cataceous told me one time that it makes sense that the standard E2 test would be more consistently reliable, due to there being a higher risk for someone carrying out the sens E2 test improperly at the lab. I guess the sens E2 test is more complicated for the technician.

If I could only get either the standard or the sens E2 test done, I would always choose the standard E2 test. There’s been quite a few times that if I only ran the sens E2 test, I would of thought my E2 was much different than what it actually was.

 

[Appassionato]

The standard E2 test has actually been more reliable than the sens E2 test, in my experience. I get them both done every time I get labs, as well as free E2. Cataceous told me one time that it makes sense that the standard E2 test would be more consistently reliable, due to there being a higher risk for someone carrying out the sens E2 test improperly at the lab. I guess the sens E2 test is more complicated for the technician.

If I could only get either the standard or the sens E2 test done, I would always choose the standard E2 test. There’s been quite a few times that if I only ran the sens E2 test, I would of thought my E2 was much different than what it actually was.

Yeah, that's the main reason.

 

[Alive]

I talked to a nurse at Defy and was told the drop in FT was due to reducing HCG. So I have to make a choice between low E2 and higher FT.

I believe what DS3 says about DHT but the significance of a change does not depend on the absolute amount. (Read on Z-scores.)

I'm hesitant to go back on propionate so I guess I'll increasing HCG dose for a few weeks and see how it makes me feel.

 

[DS3]

I talked to a nurse at Defy and was told the drop in FT was due to reducing HCG. So I have to make a choice between low E2 and higher FT.

I believe what DS3 says about DHT but the significance of a change does not depend on the absolute amount. (Read on Z-scores.)

I'm hesitant to go back on propionate so I guess I'll increasing HCG dose for a few weeks and see how it makes me feel.

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.

 

[Cataceous]

I talked to a nurse at Defy and was told the drop in FT was due to reducing HCG. So I have to make a choice between low E2 and higher FT.
...

Another look at those FT numbers and I'm ready to say they are quite wrong. With those total testosterone values, even if your SHBG increased from 10 nMol/L to 50, your free testosterone would hardly change (30 ng/dL to 28 ng/dL via Tru-T). Do not base any decisions on these measurements!

Regarding DHT, compared to longer esters, propionate on the same dosing schedule will give higher peaks and lower troughs, but there's no reason for the averages to be significantly different. The exception is that propionate doses resulting in supraphysiological testosterone peaks may actually reduce average DHT due to 5α-reductase saturation.

 

[DS3]

I talked to a nurse at Defy and was told the drop in FT was due to reducing HCG. So I have to make a choice between low E2 and higher FT.

I believe what DS3 says about DHT but the significance of a change does not depend on the absolute amount. (Read on Z-scores.)

I'm hesitant to go back on propionate so I guess I'll increasing HCG dose for a few weeks and see how it makes me feel.

Was your FT number calculated from Total T or directly measured?

 

[DS3]

Another look at those FT numbers and I'm ready to say they are quite wrong. With those total testosterone values, even if your SHBG increased from 10 nMol/L to 50, your free testosterone would hardly change (30 ng/dL to 28 ng/dL via Tru-T). Do not base any decisions on these measurements!

Regarding DHT, compared to longer esters, propionate on the same dosing schedule will give higher peaks and lower troughs, but there's no reason for the averages to be significantly different. The exception is that propionate doses resulting in supraphysiological testosterone peaks may actually reduce average DHT due to 5α-reductase saturation.

Interesting. How do you explain that his DHT was in fact higher with propionate?

If his Free T was directly measured and not a calculated free T, your hypothesis may have some trouble here.

 

[DS3]

Another look at those FT numbers and I'm ready to say they are quite wrong. With those total testosterone values, even if your SHBG increased from 10 nMol/L to 50, your free testosterone would hardly change (30 ng/dL to 28 ng/dL via Tru-T). Do not base any decisions on these measurements!

Regarding DHT, compared to longer esters, propionate on the same dosing schedule will give higher peaks and lower troughs, but there's no reason for the averages to be significantly different. The exception is that propionate doses resulting in supraphysiological testosterone peaks may actually reduce average DHT due to 5α-reductase saturation.

Also, just FYI, I used the Tru-T calculator last night to compare it to my assay that directly measured free T. Tru-T miscalculated by 7.07 ng/dL. Fairly off.

 

[Cataceous]

Interesting. How do you explain that his DHT was in fact higher with propionate?
...

So he measured the area under the curve with at least two-hour sampling to get an accurate average? With daily cypionate I would trust a single measurement at any time to be close to the average, but propionate is much too volatile for that.

...
If his Free T was directly measured and not a calculated free T, your hypothesis may have some trouble here.

The problem is his free T was directly measured with an inaccurate method. Be careful or I'll sic "madman" on you.

Also, just FYI, I used the Tru-T calculator last night to compare it to my assay that directly measured free T. Tru-T miscalculated by 7.07 ng/dL. Fairly off.

That does it. Hey @madman, this guy thinks the cheapo direct free T test trumps Tru-T. I guess he missed your education campaign.

 

[DS3]

So he measured the area under the curve with at least two-hour sampling to get an accurate average? With daily cypionate I would trust a single measurement at any time to be close to the average, but propionate is much too volatile for that.


The problem is his free T was directly measured with an inaccurate method. Be careful or I'll sic "madman" on you.



That does it. Hey @madman, this guy thinks the cheapo direct free T test trumps Tru-T. I guess he missed your education campaign.

Ah. Sorry man. Should have said that my assay of Free T was done via equilibrium dialysis.

Man. You almost had me though.