TT increased, both FT and E2 decreased!

[DS3]

So he measured the area under the curve with at least two-hour sampling to get an accurate average? With daily cypionate I would trust a single measurement at any time to be close to the average, but propionate is much too volatile for that.


The problem is his free T was directly measured with an inaccurate method. Be careful or I'll sic "madman" on you.



That does it. Hey @madman, this guy thinks the cheapo direct free T test trumps Tru-T. I guess he missed your education campaign.

 

[Cataceous]

Ah. Sorry man. Should have said that my assay of Free T was done via equilibrium dialysis.

Man. You almost had me though.

Mea culpa, though "direct" is used almost exclusively for the standard test. But I bet the OP's weren't ED. Also, although equilibrium dialysis and Tru-T are well correlated, they're not necessarily on the same scale. So get about ten more measurements and then make a scatter plot.

 

[DS3]

So he measured the area under the curve with at least two-hour sampling to get an accurate average? With daily cypionate I would trust a single measurement at any time to be close to the average, but propionate is much too volatile for that.


The problem is his free T was directly measured with an inaccurate method. Be careful or I'll sic "madman" on you.



That does it. Hey @madman, this guy thinks the cheapo direct free T test trumps Tru-T. I guess he missed your education campaign.

I see what you are saying here about the 'average' DHT value potentially being lower with propionate vs. cypionate. I can agree with that.

 

[Cataceous]

I see what you are saying here about the 'average' DHT value potentially being lower with propionate vs. cypionate. I can agree with that.

Here's what that saturation effect looks like:

 

[DS3]

Here's what that saturation effect looks like:
View attachment 8958

As I'm looking at this, this appears to demonstrate that E2 and DHT rise with increasing TT in an almost identical fashion until approximately 3000 ng/dL (in young men).

Where does this relate to the discussion of average DHT levels taking propionate vs. cypionate?

 

[DS3]

So he measured the area under the curve with at least two-hour sampling to get an accurate average? With daily cypionate I would trust a single measurement at any time to be close to the average, but propionate is much too volatile for that.


The problem is his free T was directly measured with an inaccurate method. Be careful or I'll sic "madman" on you.



That does it. Hey @madman, this guy thinks the cheapo direct free T test trumps Tru-T. I guess he missed your education campaign.

"With daily cypionate I would trust a single measurement at any time to be close to the average, but propionate is much too volatile for that."

As I look back at his dosing frequency, he was shooting propionate daily during his first assay. Doubtful that his peaks and troughs were that volatile. As stable as EOD cypionate injections? Likely not. But unlikely to result in extreme fluctuations either.

 

[Cataceous]

As I'm looking at this, this appears to demonstrate that E2 and DHT rise with increasing TT in an almost identical fashion until approximately 3000 ng/dL (in young men).

Where does this relate to the discussion of average DHT levels taking propionate vs. cypionate?

The graphs are showing that DHT increases linearly with testosterone up until ~700-800 ng/dL, above which enzyme saturation becomes noticeable and you get decreasing amounts of DHT for each additional unit of testosterone.

Now suppose that daily cypionate delivering 10 mg of testosterone per day yields a total testosterone of 800 ng/dL with minimal variation. But daily propionate delivering the same amount of testosterone can cause very large hormonal swings, at least in some, upwards of 50% above and below the average. So with this figure the peaks are about 1,200 ng/dL, leading to suppressed DHT production around that period, pulling the average below that of cypionate.

...
As I look back at his dosing frequency, he was shooting propionate daily during his first assay. Doubtful that his peaks and troughs were that volatile. As stable as EOD cypionate injections? Likely not. But unlikely to result in extreme fluctuations either.

Originally, after looking at some of the dose-response curves in the literature, I didn't think that daily propionate would give that much variation. But since then I've seen trough measurements for myself and others here that indicate large excursions below the expected averages. These lead to predictions of peaks that are almost as high above the averages. I also recently took a two-hour post-injection measurement and found it 33% above the predicted average, further evidence of large oscillations that some may experience with propionate, particularly at lower doses, which may have shorter apparent half-lives than larger doses.

 

[DS3]

The graphs are showing that DHT increases linearly with testosterone up until ~700-800 ng/dL, above which enzyme saturation becomes noticeable and you get decreasing amounts of DHT for each additional unit of testosterone.

Now suppose that daily cypionate delivering 10 mg of testosterone per day yields a total testosterone of 800 ng/dL with minimal variation. But daily propionate delivering the same amount of testosterone can cause very large hormonal swings, at least in some, upwards of 50% above and below the average. So with this figure the peaks are about 1,200 ng/dL, leading to suppressed DHT production around that period, pulling the average below that of cypionate.


Originally, after looking at some of the dose-response curves in the literature, I didn't think that daily propionate would give that much variation. But since then I've seen trough measurements for myself and others here that indicate large excursions below the expected averages. These lead to predictions of peaks that are almost as high above the averages. I also recently took a two-hour post-injection measurement and found it 33% above the predicted average, further evidence of large oscillations that some may experience with propionate, particularly at lower doses, which may have shorter apparent half-lives than larger doses.

So what this figure is then demonstrating is that with both DHT and E2, for each additional unit of testosterone past this saturation point you see similar enzyme saturation in both DHT and E2. An in essence, what this looks like to me, along with your explanation, is that any ester used to create a supraphysiological level would see decreasing amounts of DHT and E2 per units of testosterone given past TT levels of 700~800 ng/dL.

In other words, reduced DHT levels as a result of enzyme saturation wouldn't inherently be a characteristic of testosterone propionate in comparison to testosterone cypionate. Rather, supraphysiological levels of TT regardless of ester will render diminishing returns of DHT per additional unit of testosterone (as well as estrogen according to the above figure).

 

[Cataceous]

...
In other words, reduced DHT levels as a result of enzyme saturation wouldn't inherently be a characteristic of testosterone propionate in comparison to testosterone cypionate. Rather, supraphysiological levels of TT regardless of ester will render diminishing returns of DHT per additional unit of testosterone (as well as estrogen according to the above figure).

This is true, but shorter esters do give larger hormonal swings when the same dosing pattern is used. You would need to set a dose interval proportional to half-life to equalize the effects for different esters. Lest we get too far into the weeds, it's an interesting phenomenon to discuss, but I doubt it's big enough to make a lot of difference in real life.

This does relate to the larger question of the relative importance of peaks, troughs and averages in both the subjective and objective results of TRT. It would be nice to have some research that explores this.