"TRT/HRT/Nutrition/Cognition/Wellness/LT student of the game"

[Belekas]

As I said in PM, there is no way you are getting elevated BP on this protocol unless you just allergic to testosterone. Steroidplotter doesn't show the release patterns accurately for SC injections, which are significantly slower due to longer half-life. The graph for EOD SC probably looks more like ED IM in terms of peaks and troughs.

You're in for a smooth like butter experience when you're finished with the pylori treatment.

That sounds ever better then considering all things related. Main thing is for me to be cool, calm and collected which also is impossible without proper digestion and being able to absorm and utilise all the nutrients. BP and cognitive functions wise as well. But its also not clear if my gut issues will be gone with time after this treatment. That is exactly why I'm already planning PCT to get off TRT. The 3 years I was off testosterone I had no gut issues and was able to eat everything with great digestion. Pretty much as I got on TRT I started having them and been battling them ever since. So they are def related but in what mechanisms is unclear. I have ordered a 4pt Saliva Cortisol test and will look into that as that is another aspect that TRT fucks up long-term. If that still looks good then I will be leaning towards parasites and will need to do a serious detox/cleanse protocol which is another huge can of worms on itself. So one way or another I ain't giving up and marching forward.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

That sounds ever better then considering all things related. Main thing is for me to be cool, calm and collected which also is impossible without proper digestion and being able to absorm and utilise all the nutrients. BP and cognitive functions wise as well. But its also not clear if my gut issues will be gone with time after this treatment. That is exactly why I'm already planning PCT to get off TRT. The 3 years I was off testosterone I had no gut issues and was able to eat everything with great digestion. Pretty much as I got on TRT I started having them and been battling them ever since. So they are def related but in what mechanisms is unclear. I have ordered a 4pt Saliva Cortisol test and will look into that as that is another aspect that TRT fucks up long-term. If that still looks good then I will be leaning towards parasites and will need to do a serious detox/cleanse protocol which is another huge can of worms on itself. So one way or another I ain't giving up and marching forward.

Did you ever measure your DHT before and after TRT? I ask because cream causes me a distinct type of indigestion that I do not get with injections and the insane levels of DHT are my suspected culprit. There are androgen receptors all over the GI tract and maybe it does something to mess with digestion when they're being flooded with DHT.

In your case though with the tweaked out state, it could be more of an indirect effect of TRT: you cannot digest food well if your sympathetic nervous system is strongly activated. Any time you're feeling overstimulated your digestion will suffer. Are you familiar with the side effect profiles of stimulants like adderall, ritalin, etc? Alot of GI side effects there.

So, although you suggest poor digestion makes it impossible to be cool calm and collected, I think more often the calm and collected state disappears first, and that is what compromises digestion as a result.

 

[Belekas]

Did you ever measure your DHT before and after TRT? I ask because cream causes me a distinct type of indigestion that I do not get with injections and the insane levels of DHT are my suspected culprit. There are androgen receptors all over the GI tract and maybe it does something to mess with digestion when they're being flooded with DHT.

In your case though with the tweaked out state, it could be more of an indirect effect of TRT: you cannot digest food well if your sympathetic nervous system is strongly activated. Any time you're feeling overstimulated your digestion will suffer. Are you familiar with the side effect profiles of stimulants like adderall, ritalin, etc? Alot of GI side effects there.

So, although you suggest poor digestion makes it impossible to be cool calm and collected, I think more often the calm and collected state disappears first, and that is what compromises digestion as a result.

No I never measured that because it was expensive. I doubt that I have insane levels from the doses that I run but who knows. Thing is my pain is nothing that I have seen or read online and not one doctor seen or has an idea whats causing it either. For such pain by their logic there has to be an ulcer somewhere but theres none and endoscopy confirmed. I did it private and in well talked about clinic if that means anything, yet their suggested antibiotic treatment did absolutely nothing for my issue.

In your case though with the tweaked out state, it could be more of an indirect effect of TRT: you cannot digest food well if your sympathetic nervous system is strongly activated. Any time you're feeling overstimulated your digestion will suffer. Are you familiar with the side effect profiles of stimulants like adderall, ritalin, etc? Alot of GI side effects there.

I haven't tried them but did a lot of drugs back in the day, but thats offtopic. Never had such issues but I was a lot younger so that doesn't countl. I agree re overstimulation and that can also be related to Cortisol response which TRT alters.

So, although you suggest poor digestion makes it impossible to be cool calm and collected, I think more often the calm and collected state disappears first, and that is what compromises digestion as a result.

I wasn't talking about cause and effect in chronological order if you want to be that precise but I get your point and that can also be true. I had this pain when I was running 250mg/week years ago as well and used to drink tons of bic soda, take lots of rennies etc. Tried lots of PPI's as well which helped fuck all. So you can be absolutely right that the overstimulation messes up the digestion in different pathways due to some thing or a combination of things and since I'm a hyper active person TRT just might be not for me. TRT throws off a lot of other hormones which then we end up fixing by taking something to combat and then that throws off something again and the story never ends...

 

[FunkOdyssey]

So you can be absolutely right that the overstimulation messes up the digestion in different pathways due to some thing or a combination of things and since I'm a hyper active person TRT just might be not for me. TRT throws off a lot of other hormones which then we end up fixing by taking something to combat and then that throws off something again and the story never ends...

I have a sort of cognitively dissonant reply to this: I am personally testing the hypothesis that you can safely ignore the many hormones thrown off by TRT. The vast majority do and are all the better for it. I found a great rat study which showed how after castration, many neurosteroids that were disrupted in the short term made a recovery in the long-term. I'd much rather let my body adapt to the HPTA shutdown than imperfectly replace every affected hormone myself (probably making things worse in the process).

However, in your particular case, with your particular issues, it might be worth experimenting with progesterone. As dismissive as I've been towards it recently, there is no doubt it can have strong calming and sedative effects that counteract stimulation from TRT. You'll see occasional anecdotes from people that said they were never able to tolerate TRT and were about to quit when they tried progesterone and it fixed their whole experience.

 

[Jerajera]

I can't go through your entire log so feel free to ignore if you've addressed this, but have you ever tried hcg/Pregnenolone/DHEA?

For me exogenous Test destroys my production of neurosteroids, I've tested that on over 20 blood tests at this point and the results are blatant. Drop of 60%+ in Preg/DHEA/Progesterone.

hCG helps but if I take more than 50-60iu/day I start feeling worse. But for me the biggest difference is when I take Pregnenolone. Night and day. More relaxed, much higher libido, more energy, more drive, etc...

Without it I get a mix of insane anxiety and complete apathy on TRT.

Definitely worth a try if you've never experimented with those. I'd also stick to pharma compounded neurosteroids if you have access to them. OTC supplements are typically severely underdosed, when they even contain any trace of the active ingredient in the first place; not comparable at all to pharma stuff. Dr Saya has a post about that somehwere on these forums.

If you can get pharma stuff, start with a very low dose; even 5mg/day is a lot.

 

[Belekas]

I have a sort of cognitively dissonant reply to this: I am personally testing the hypothesis that you can safely ignore the many hormones thrown off by TRT. The vast majority do and are all the better for it. I found a great rat study which showed how after castration, many neurosteroids that were disrupted in the short term made a recovery in the long-term. I'd much rather let my body adapt to the HPTA shutdown than imperfectly replace every affected hormone myself (probably making things worse in the process).

However, in your particular case, with your particular issues, it might be worth experimenting with progesterone. As dismissive as I've been towards it recently, there is no doubt it can have strong calming and sedative effects that counteract stimulation from TRT. You'll see occasional anecdotes from people that said they were never able to tolerate TRT and were about to quit when they tried progesterone and it fixed their whole experience.

Yeah I've been reading about progesterone for a long time but never pulled the trigger. Although I found an interesting person on reddit with 20+ years on TRT in his early 70s I believe who really advocates progesterone cream but not orals. He supposedly fixed some guys who had anxiety and other issues while on TRT. So I will give it a go with the cream and way of taking it as he recommends. I most def need a relaxing and calming effect, thats for sure!

 

[Belekas]

I can't go through your entire log so feel free to ignore if you've addressed this, but have you ever tried hcg/Pregnenolone/DHEA?

For me exogenous Test destroys my production of neurosteroids, I've tested that on over 20 blood tests at this point and the results are blatant. Drop of 60%+ in Preg/DHEA/Progesterone.

hCG helps but if I take more than 50-60iu/day I start feeling worse. But for me the biggest difference is when I take Pregnenolone. Night and day. More relaxed, much higher libido, more energy, more drive, etc...

Without it I get a mix of insane anxiety and complete apathy on TRT.

Definitely worth a try if you've never experimented with those. I'd also stick to pharma compounded neurosteroids if you have access to them. OTC supplements are typically severely underdosed, when they even contain any trace of the active ingredient in the first place; not comparable at all to pharma stuff. Dr Saya has a post about that somehwere on these forums.

If you can get pharma stuff, start with a very low dose; even 5mg/day is a lot.

Thanks for sharing and no I've never tried any of these just hCG but not during TRT. I can't get pharma grade prog/preg as I'm in the UK. For all other products like pharma Test and Deca for example its easy to source these days. I will think about this and see what can be done in regards. I'm interested to try some progesterone cream first as I've read oral is not a good option. What is your opinion on oral prog/preg if I may ask?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Yeah I've been reading about progesterone for a long time but never pulled the trigger. Although I found an interesting person on reddit with 20+ years on TRT in his early 70s I believe who really advocates progesterone cream but not orals. He supposedly fixed some guys who had anxiety and other issues while on TRT. So I will give it a go with the cream and way of taking it as he recommends. I most def need a relaxing and calming effect, thats for sure!

Yeah, if you want maximum relaxing effects from progesterone, you want the cream for sure. I tried it and it was too strong for me. It felt like valium or xanax. What you are after here is the progesterone metabolite allopregnanolone, which is a "positive allosteric modulator" of GABA receptors just like the benzodiazepines. Far more allopregnanolone is produced when you apply progesterone topically versus other forms of administration.

Allopregnanolone is probably the same metabolite delivering the benefits described by Jerajera. A large portion of oral pregnenolone converts to progesterone, so it can be an effective way to increase progesterone levels in some men. If I were really after progesterone and allopregnanolone though, I would prefer to skip straight to the progesterone.

 

[Belekas]

Yeah, if you want maximum relaxing effects from progesterone, you want the cream for sure. I tried it and it was too strong for me. It felt like valium or xanax. What you are after here is the progesterone metabolite allopregnanolone, which is a "positive allosteric modulator" of GABA receptors just like the benzodiazepines. Far more allopregnanolone is produced when you apply progesterone topically versus other forms of administration.

Allopregnanolone is probably the same metabolite delivering the benefits described by Jerajera. A large portion of oral pregnenolone converts to progesterone, so it can be an effective way to increase progesterone levels in some men. If I were really after progesterone and allopregnanolone though, I would prefer to skip straight to the progesterone.

Thats a damn strong effect then so now eager to give it a go myself. Also I've read that 1000mg GABA before bed also works good combined with progesterone cream so as well might get that too. Will start just on cream to see what happens and then go from there. I always feel adrenaline bursting through my veins when I make a move, lets say I sit and then stand up and go do something, its like I'm pumped and ready for violence lol it's hard to explain but I hope you get my point. Another thing is I had serious drug addictions during my young days which I've beaten and there was a doc who said that only 6 people out of very very large number makes it, I don't recall the exact #s, so I am 1 of those 6 from a lot. And she said that those people, including me will need to be either under influence of weed or something else their whole lifes to feel normal, most likely sedated, is what she had in mind. It might be BS it might be not, but for me if I smoke good weed, it calms me down and I function great. Removes all the anxiety, feel cool and calm. But obv after smoking nearly 3 decades I don't want to do that anymore for various reasons, but always when I stop smoking for 6-10 months thats pretty much when my issues start to rise. Always like clockwork. I don't want to believe that smoking has messed me up for ever because prior TRT I felt fine so def theres a overstimulation mechanism or somekind of deficiency or both at work and trying progesterone is def worth before hanging the gloves and putting my little laboratory away for the next 10 years or so.

 

[Gman86]

Thats a damn strong effect then so now eager to give it a go myself. Also I've read that 1000mg GABA before bed also works good combined with progesterone cream so as well might get that too. Will start just on cream to see what happens and then go from there. I always feel adrenaline bursting through my veins when I make a move, lets say I sit and then stand up and go do something, its like I'm pumped and ready for violence lol it's hard to explain but I hope you get my point. Another thing is I had serious drug addictions during my young days which I've beaten and there was a doc who said that only 6 people out of very very large number makes it, I don't recall the exact #s, so I am 1 of those 6 from a lot. And she said that those people, including me will need to be either under influence of weed or something else their whole lifes to feel normal, most likely sedated, is what she had in mind. It might be BS it might be not, but for me if I smoke good weed, it calms me down and I function great. Removes all the anxiety, feel cool and calm. But obv after smoking nearly 3 decades I don't want to do that anymore for various reasons, but always when I stop smoking for 6-10 months thats pretty much when my issues start to rise. Always like clockwork. I don't want to believe that smoking has messed me up for ever because prior TRT I felt fine so def theres a overstimulation mechanism or somekind of deficiency or both at work and trying progesterone is def worth before hanging the gloves and putting my little laboratory away for the next 10 years or so.

Some progesterone/ increasing allopregnenolone can definitely chill a person out. Do u take magnesium? That can definitely cause a nice calming effect. I put liquid magnesium chloride in my waters everyday. Have for years. I’m the most chill, relaxed, go with the flow human u’ll ever meet. Obv the magnesium isn’t the only thing causing this, but I think it helps

 

[Belekas]

Some progesterone/ increasing allopregnenolone can definitely chill a person out. Do u take magnesium? That can definitely cause a nice calming effect. I put liquid magnesium chloride in my waters everyday. Have for years. I’m the most chill, relaxed, go with the flow human u’ll ever meet. Obv the magnesium isn’t the only thing causing this, but I think it helps

ATM I can't tolerate any Magnesium I've tried. Just bought NOW Magnesium Bisglycinate which should be well tollerated and even at 250mg (elemental dose) before sleep next day I have terrible migraine type headaches. Tried a few times and always the same. Don't want to start messing with chloride as its harsh on the gut and not only. And all the magnesiums Ive tried before, and trust me I've tried tons in my last 20 years have never ever made any effect on me at various dosages. My fucking cupboard is breaking from all the supps Ive bought, tried a few days, got nasty sides and had to put down, when everybody else can take them all together and feel fine. Go figure.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

My fucking cupboard is breaking from all the supps Ive bought, tried a few days, got nasty sides and had to put down, when everybody else can take them all together and feel fine. Go figure.

I call this the supplement graveyard and mine is also huge.

 

[glob]

Been playing with steroidplotter lately and pretty interesting results fwiw. The huge dip from peak to through might be an issue for me after all. The last 2 pics are 250mg E7D that I was on for 3 years and same 250mg dose just split ED. What a dramatic difference and if injected E7D the dip from peak to through is ruffly 2.7 times. No wonder I was feeling hyped, wired and overstimulated big time and also had elevated BP even being fit af, eating solid and doing cardio daily. Might have been overworked as well, stressed too, but these large dips and rips in testosterone release might be a culprit as well to some extent.

I decided to give my experiment one last go and changed my protocol to injecting 25mg(0.1ml) EOD Sub-Q. So thats 87.5mg/week if my math is correct. It's a low dose but since I'm treating my gut issues I've decided to go slow and give it a proper go. I never gave microdosing a proper go so guess will see what happens.

I will follow my BP once I'm done with the antibiotic treatment in a week or so. Maybe start measuring in a couple of weaks after body rests some as I'm pumping 6.5g of total antibiotics per day currently as just have added Tetracycline 250mg/4x per day starting week #2.

But that all being said I've already talked to my guy and ordered some Clomid and likely will get some hCG if I won't feel my normal self and won't be happy with my TRT will just hang the gloves, recover and take it from there. I had a very interesting time during my 12 month experiment since I've started last year and def learned a lot. So lets see what happens and whatever happens I'm prepared with no regrets even though this year has put my well behind my schedule with work and my vision. Nevertheless I've been planning this experiment a long time so it's all good baby baby : )

Hope ya'll are killing it so cheers to a great and productive week!

you felt more hyper and overstimulated with frequent injections or with e7d injections

 

[Belekas]

you felt more hyper and overstimulated with frequent injections or with e7d injections

Its hard to say but more or less pretty much the same if I'd be honest. I had good time and bad time but due to different issues. Because to do a proper experiment all the conditions and variables must be controlled and the same during all protocols which is hard to do because I'm always doing lots of things like heavy cardio, heavy training, some breath work, supplement regimes, recreational drugs, etc etc. One thing that is common with me is huge stress for many decades due to chasing my dream and working towards it day in day out against all odds. Now I haven't ran 250mg split EOD or ED dosing and have no idea how I would feel but def that would make an interesting experiment. Will smaller doses and more frequent dosing in theory we should feel more stable and that is exactly where I'm at right now injecting 25mg EOD which is what like 87.5mg test per week. Will see how I feel, how BP looks, how performance in gym looks, even though this is not my priority and the main thing- how brain and cognitive functions will be considering this protocol. Also the downstairs department as well. If any of these two fails its a no go for me.

The thing is I think I'm an andrenaline dominant person and that is a whole another issue on itself and a huge can of worms to open. Been readong a lot about progesterone, pregnenoline, cortisol and andrenaline lately. And these areas might be worth exploring when there is trouble with overstimulation, anxiety, BP, etc.

 

[Belekas]

Update:

Yesterday evening finished my 4 week detox and pre-antiobiotics H-Pylori healing phase. Starting round #3 of antibiotics in 30 mins.

Total protocol lenght - 14 days.

1000mg of Amoxicillin E6H
1500mg Metronidazole split E6H
PPI E6H (have some Rebeprazole so will do 10mg/E6H then once I run out of it will to Esomeprazole 20mg/E6H
Start of Week#2 adding Tetracycline 250mg/E6H for the remaining 7 days.

Have't decided to add Bismuth Subcitrate as its needed to be taken an hour before as it effects absorbion of other meds so gets bit problematic.

Also have probiotic ready so might run that as well and after the course is done.

Wish me luck guys, been a long fucking time coming.

Fingers crossed.

Ok guys so I've finished my 2 week HP Antibiotics protocol a few days ago. That was a total of 84g of Antibiotics consumed during this treatment. Having in mind I had 4 or 5 days on them also before which I've discontinued prior starting natural 4 week detox/prep phase I've taken well over 100 fucking grams of this poison. Anyone interested at the exact timing and doses feel free to ask I'll post my log.

Now after this 4 week natural detox/prep phase something def worked because during all these 2 weeks on these antibiotics I never ever had a loose stool which I had prior when starting same meds for those 4-5 days. So thats def a positive sign. Once taking them wasn't too bad but closer to the end, real nasty fatigue hit and started getting headaches as well. Also my BP started spiking so most likely theres a connection between the two IMO. Now after I've finished I feel like death lol and also my downstairs department feels empty af which I fucking hate. Might be from heavy antibiotics, might be from the new EOD TRT protocol, might be from the heavy PPI doses, might be from all of this shit together, so who the fuck knows. Also might be from me eating a lot less then normally which always was a sign for me to eat more as my libido and johnson loves to be at well fed state all the time.

So probably thats about it. Today will go to the gym and do a bit of baby work with lady weights and a bit of cardio for digestion and blod flow. Was trying to be active during all these 14 days, walking, but some days just was too hammered and stayed at home counting my blessings.

I'm glad this shit is finally over and now it's time to heal and hopefully regrow the good bacteria and get rid of my chest/stomach/abdomen pains. Bad times can't last forever else fuck eating healthy and fuck training to look good if you can't function and operate like a normal human being. It's a fucking slow procedure but gotta man da fuck up and push through. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger or at least wiser ( I hope).

Pain is just weakness leaving the body!

Much love and salute everybody.

Peace!

 

[Belekas]

Also forgot to mention I'm also taking a probiotic and have been taking it while on treatment as well. It's called Bio-Kult S. Boulardii. Nothing special but from all the reviews it seems like a working one and was got for some folks sensitive guts. Since I can't tolerate most of the supplements theres a chance I can't tolerate this one as well. So will see regarding headaches and discontinue to see if that makes a change. To be fair I never ever had anything positive from taking any probiotics that were supposed to be good quallity, yet others felt this or felt that. 99% of the time I don't feel anything good but just feel like a complete pile of dog shit lol that is all. Not sure how others can pop 20 different supplements and feel amazing, like those TRT docs for example. The one that was a bodybuilder back in the day from Greece I believe, have you seen his supplement stack, not even talking about meds? JFC thats like 50 different items in there. He must feel completely zoned out taking all that shit. And yet, here I am not being able to tolerate anything at all lol Un fucking believable...

 

[Belekas]

Been reading Dr. Platts book "Adrenaline dominance" and damn pretty interesting stuff there. Not sure how real all that is hes writting about but that does sound like 100% whats happening with me. Very interesting that most adrenaline dominant persons look for ways to counter act it and relax and most start drinking, smoking weed, doing drugs. Also the teeth grinding at night he attributes to adrenaline dumping as well. Headaches, stiff muscles, stiff neck and fucking 100 another symptoms. And he says that they are treatable with progesterone and progesterone cream in particular, which is very different from oral progesterone which gets absorbed primary by GI tract and into the liver where it converts into allopregnanolone which by his words is not recognized by Progesterone receptors. Also allopregnanolone causes drowsinnes which is why oral progesterone is recommended to be taken at night. Transdermal progesterone cream, on the other hand, does readily attach to receptor sites, after which it cannot be detected by blood level tests.

He also says that rubbing it into back of the neck reliefs tinnitus symptoms and that he treated many patients helping them to reduce the ringing in one or both ears. FWIW I'm very skeptical about this as currently as far as I know there ain't no treatment for it and the German trials for a promising drug IIRC have been dropped. Living with nasty fucking ringing in both ears 24/7 ain't no fucking joke either. So I guess only one way to try that out.

Pretty interesting thoughts though so I will finish his book and should have Progesterone cream arriving in a couple of days if no delays. Will share an update once that happens and I start on it.

I've spent too many years trying to figure myself out and I ain't giving up thats for sure. Some days are bad but still get an occasional good day which I'll take just like that cuz tomorrow is not promised. One thing that is though- that if we don't figure out the root cause of our pains and struggles then it will only get worse. And that we can't allow. So gotta keep pushing and keep fighting!

One love, Peace!

Progesterone Dosage Recommedations

, Replacing progesterone can help many conditions, but it's main benefit is to block estrogen, insulin and adrenaline. Many benefits include: Progesterone is a natural antidepressant, since it affects the receptor sites for many neurotransmitters in the brain. It helps to control insulin, a...

plattwellness.com

 

[sammmy]

If you can tolerate it, now it is the time to eat lots of plain yogurt (must contain only whole milk and the standard live bacterial cultures, no artificial ingredients, no fat reduced or fat free). The antibiotics have decimated the bad and good bacteria and now it is the perfect time to populate with good bacteria from fermented food.

 

[Belekas]

If you can tolerate it, now it is the time to eat lots of plain yogurt (must contain only whole milk and the standard live bacterial cultures, no artificial ingredients, no fat reduced or fat free). The antibiotics have decimated the bad and good bacteria and now it is the perfect time to populate with good bacteria from fermented food.

I will go tomorrow and buy some decent one. Will give it a go and see what happens. What about kefir? Also what else you'd think would be beneficial now from your point of view? Thanks for sharing Sammmy.

 

[Mastodont]

Saccharomyocytes boulardii is actually a yeast, not a probiotic, works wonders for hardening stools when in thailand...