Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer

[RobRoy]

Good stuff. I didn’t read the entire JCEM paper, but it looks like a good design. Randomized and double-blinded. That said, the study population was hypogonadal, but not under treatment. So, like you pointed out, the findings may not translate in those with HPTA suppression.

The reason I asked in the first place was that while on cream, I used a (very small) dose of an AI a few times. A few days after my last AI dose, my resting heart rate skyrocketed and blood pressure spiked. I felt terrible. As I had been applying it for well over five half lives, I assumed that I should have already been at a relative steady state on the cream. So my theory was that the AI indirectly pushed an already high DHT even higher, amplifying the sympathetic nervous system effects. Don’t know. Just speculating, but that was the reason for the question.

I saw some benefit on the cream, and was applying to both the scrotum and shoulder. Many guys reference this paper that suggests that scrotal absorption is 8 times higher than abdominal absorption. Anecdotally, I have heard of guys with free T at extremely high levels with scrotal application and others that struggle to get their levels up no matter where they apply. I was really looking for anecdotes on non-scrotal success stories, as that is where I suspect I will find success.

You also have the DHT all wrong. Why can it not be the Aromatase inhibitor being a medication with side effects that caused your problem? Why is it DHT? The DHT receptors at the tissue level are fully saturated at a fairly low testosterone level (250ng/dl in the prostate for example) What you are measuring in the serum is just excess. It has no effect on the tissues, because those receptors have been fully saturated.

 

[RobRoy]

If you feel like scrotal was bringing your levels too high. Why not just lower the dose? you’ll save money by having to apply less cream. And also no risk of transference. my dht and estrogen were the same on scrotal vs non scrotal when t levels were similar. Again you’re completely overthinking this. From reading too much bs on the forums. People in this forum are always looking for problems when switching protocol’s And it breeds all this nonsense and overthinking. Trust me I know better than anyone. I’m nuts go back and look at my post history. Anyway. Stop worrying about e2 and dht. Just focus on finding a dose where you feel good at.

Correct and very excellent post

 

[Charliebizz]

Best post I have read in a long time. You are correct on all points. Congratulations!

I really started to get fed up with the tribal bullshit too. i got to a point where I really started to look at the guys who constantly feel good on all these groups and forums. Screw all the papers and studies that have so many damn conflicts in them. All the guys that I see “consistently“ doing well are in very basic protocols. Never worried about e2. and Honestly dosing on the higher side of what this forum considers normal. Trust me I was a guy who was always micro managing with “low dose “ high frequency“ then Cream to my thighs. No maybe my arms. Ahhh scrotum is too much. Lol it was crazy. I saw all the cream guys on a few forums and groups just keeping it simple and riding it out and honestly 90% or more are doing the best they ever had. I’ve also become very realistic that some of my lingering issues aren’t t related. Once I stopped chasing feeling great everyday and having crazy libido like I did when first started cream everything fell into place.

 

[Cataceous]

The reason I asked in the first place was that while on cream, I used a (very small) dose of an AI a few times. A few days after my last AI dose, my resting heart rate skyrocketed and blood pressure spiked. I felt terrible. As I had been applying it for well over five half lives, I assumed that I should have already been at a relative steady state on the cream. So my theory was that the AI indirectly pushed an already high DHT even higher, amplifying the sympathetic nervous system effects. Don’t know. Just speculating, but that was the reason for the question.

I'd bet against it if your HPTA is suppressed. I suspect changes in DHT are going to be smaller than the measurement errors of our tests.

... I was really looking for anecdotes on non-scrotal success stories, as that is where I suspect I will find success.

All I can give you is a non-scrotal failure story. A lot of DHT, highly variably testosterone, and poor subjective results.

... The DHT receptors at the tissue level are fully saturated at a fairly low testosterone level (250ng/dl in the prostate for example) What you are measuring in the serum is just excess. It has no effect on the tissues, because those receptors have been fully saturated.

This sounds like an oversimplification to me. Depends on which receptors. On topical testosterone with relatively low serum T levels I had body and facial hair going crazy. Switch to injections with 2-3 times higher testosterone and the excess hair goes away.

 

[Charliebizz]

You also have the DHT all wrong. Why can it not be the Aromatase inhibitor being a medication with side effects that caused your problem? Why is it DHT? The DHT receptors at the tissue level are fully saturated at a fairly low testosterone level (250ng/dl in the prostate for example) What you are measuring in the serum is just excess. It has no effect on the tissues, because those receptors have been fully saturated.

I couldn’t agree more. My dht is sitting at 180 right now top range is 85 I believe. I legit have no so-called “high dht” symptoms. non at all. The only side effect I might have is way better erections then injections lol.

 

[Charliebizz]

I'd bet against it if your HPTA is suppressed. I suspect changes in DHT are going to be smaller than the measurement errors of our tests.

All I can give you is a non-scrotal failure story. A lot of DHT, highly variably testosterone, and poor subjective results.


This sounds like an oversimplification to me. Depends on which receptors. On topical testosterone with relatively low serum T levels I had body and facial hair going crazy. Switch to injections with 2-3 times higher testosterone and the excess hair goes away.

I have the same amount of body hair on cream as injections. was It trt or the natural progression of aging for me. My dad is a very hairy dude too. It Seemed like trt ramped up my body hair growth but can’t be sure. My dht was mid range on injections and way over range on cream. And no difference at all in body hair

 

[Cataceous]

... All the guys that I see “consistently“ doing well are in very basic protocols. ...

You might rephrase, since I should be counted as an exception. I'll grant that there may be some non-essential parts to my complicated protocol. But no amount of tweaking "basic protocols" got me close to the consistency that I enjoy now.

I have the same amount of body hair on cream as injections. was It trt or the natural progression of aging for me. My dad is a very hairy dude too. It Seemed like trt ramped up my body hair growth but can’t be sure. My dht was mid range on injections and way over range on cream. And no difference at all in body hair

The point here is that his blanket statement is demonstrably false. We do not have all our androgen receptors saturated at "fairly low testosterone" levels. If that were true then nobody would need more than those low levels.

 

[RobRoy]

You might rephrase, since I should be counted as an exception. I'll grant that there may be some non-essential parts to my complicated protocol. But no amount of tweaking "basic protocols" got me close to the consistency that I enjoy now.


The point here is that his blanket statement is demonstrably false. We do not have all our androgen receptors saturated at "fairly low testosterone" levels. If that were true then nobody would need more than those low levels.

Before you comment, make sure you understand the physiology of androgens, as well as DHT etc. I’ll be glad for you some literature on DHT so do you understand that at target tissues the receptors are fully saturated at a low testosterone level. Take a look at Morgentalera saturation model.

 

[RobRoy]

I'd bet against it if your HPTA is suppressed. I suspect changes in DHT are going to be smaller than the measurement errors of our tests.

All I can give you is a non-scrotal failure story. A lot of DHT, highly variably testosterone, and poor subjective results.


This sounds like an oversimplification to me. Depends on which receptors. On topical testosterone with relatively low serum T levels I had body and facial hair going crazy. Switch to injections with 2-3 times higher testosterone and the excess hair goes away.

Sorry that it sounds like an oversimplification, but it’s just the facts and the physiology.

 

[Fortunate]

You also have the DHT all wrong. Why can it not be the Aromatase inhibitor being a medication with side effects that caused your problem? Why is it DHT? The DHT receptors at the tissue level are fully saturated at a fairly low testosterone level (250ng/dl in the prostate for example) What you are measuring in the serum is just excess. It has no effect on the tissues, because those receptors have been fully saturated.

Anything is possible, but it doesn’t seem logical that the anastrozole would have the cardiovascular effects I experienced. Androgens, on the other hand, are well-known to do this.

I am open to your explanation if you have one.

 

[Fortunate]

If you feel like scrotal was bringing your levels too high. Why not just lower the dose? you’ll save money by having to apply less cream. And also no risk of transference. my dht and estrogen were the same on scrotal vs non scrotal when t levels were similar. Again you’re completely overthinking this. From reading too much bs on the forums. People in this forum are always looking for problems when switching protocol’s And it breeds all this nonsense and overthinking. Trust me I know better than anyone. I’m nuts go back and look at my post history. Anyway. Stop worrying about e2 and dht. Just focus on finding a dose where you feel good at.

Good suggestion. I have already considered this. I was only doing one click on the scrotum. I don't think half clicks are very consistent. So, I would have to get a different strength cream. I happen to have 20% and 15%, so I could drop the dose by changing the cream.

That said, I decided to try a similar dose, but on the arms. I can always push it up from there (ie, apply to well absorbed areas) once I determine I can tolerate things.

I must be a snowflake. I don't tolerate rapid changes very well.

 

[Cataceous]

Before you comment, make sure you understand the physiology of androgens, as well as DHT etc. I’ll be glad for you some literature on DHT so do you understand that at target tissues the receptors are fully saturated at a low testosterone level. Take a look at Morgentalera saturation model.

I'm aware of this particular saturation model, though the details are more complex than you imply. Your prior phrasing is still wrong, highlighting the perils of making such generalizations. Your current phrasing can only be rescued if you force a restrictive definition of "target tissues". At least I assume you're not claiming that androgen receptors in muscle tissue are saturated at low levels of testosterone.

I recall someone making similar remarks about how serum estradiol is "just excess" and that such excess is inconsequential. I think I suggested he try injecting a milligram every day to test that idea.

 

[RobRoy]

Anything is possible, but it doesn’t seem logical that the anastrozole would have the cardiovascular effects I experienced. Androgens, on the other hand, are well-known to do this.

I am open to your explanation if you have one.

Really? Since DHT is over the counter in some countries and we have multiple studies raising DHT by factors of 10 and yet they get none of the symptoms that you complained of. Are you trying to associate the increase in DHT from testosterone with the use of anabolic steroids? That’s an apple and oranges comparison. What well-known cardiovascular adverse effects have resulted from taking testosterone? On the other hand, what adverse cardiac events have occurred while taking a Aromatase inhibitors? Side effects of Aromatase inhibitors have included myocardial infarction, angina pectoris, hypertension, and Venous thrombolic events just to name a few…. Testosterone and its active metabolites have never been shown to do any of that.

 

[RobRoy]

I'm aware of this particular saturation model, though the details are more complex than you imply. Your prior phrasing is still wrong, highlighting the perils of making such generalizations. Your current phrasing can only be rescued if you force a restrictive definition of "target tissues". At least I assume you're not claiming that androgen receptors in muscle tissue are saturated at low levels of testosterone.

I recall someone making similar remarks about how serum estradiol is "just excess" and that such excess is inconsequential. I think I suggested he try injecting a milligram every day to test that idea.

Testosterone goes down three pathways, whether you make it or take it. It has a direct effect on muscle tissue, and everyone knows that increasing testosterone levels increase androgen receptors as they are auto regulated in muscle tissue. But what we’re talking about is a different situation. Testosterone has to be converted into estradiol and DHT, in other target tissues. You can only make so much DHT and estradiol as well, because the enzymes have a saturation point. Once the receptors in those target tissues are fully saturated, the remaining DHT and estradiol or just excess. You don’t have an infinite number of receptors at the target tissue. So the amount of DHT and estradiol is limited, and each individual and the number androgen receptors are also limited. The saturation point of the engine receptors in target tissue like the prostate or in the skin, etc. or at a relatively low level of testosterone. Take a little look at the prescribing information on a anastrozole in the package insert.

 

[Fortunate]

Really? Since DHT is over the counter in some countries and we have multiple studies raising DHT by factors of 10 and yet they get none of the symptoms that you complained of. Are you trying to associate the increase in DHT from testosterone with the use of anabolic steroids? That’s an apple and oranges comparison. What well-known cardiovascular adverse effects have resulted from taking testosterone? On the other hand, what adverse cardiac events have occurred while taking a Aromatase inhibitors? Side effects of Aromatase inhibitors have included myocardial infarction, angina pectoris, hypertension, and Venous thrombolic events just to name a few…. Testosterone and its active metabolites have never been shown to do any of that.

Look, man, I am not trying to be argumentative. I didn't realize this thread had a contentious history until I looked book at old posts. My intention is not to revive all that. I am literally looking for answers. I am a long time struggler on TRT for various reasons. I want to feel good, and I am looking for explanations for why I felt the way I felt. If your answer is correct, I'd be more than delighted to know that all I need to do stay away from AI's. I am not 100% convinced that was the cause, but am open to the possibility.

For what it's worth, I have taken an AI on various occasions and have never experienced the CV effects I described (n=1). This article suggests androgens have various adrenergic affects that may be relevant in my case.

 

[Cataceous]

... You can only make so much DHT and estradiol as well, because the enzymes have a saturation point. Once the receptors in those target tissues are fully saturated, the remaining DHT and estradiol or just excess. You don’t have an infinite number of receptors at the target tissue. So the amount of DHT and estradiol is limited, and each individual and the number androgen receptors are also limited. The saturation point of the engine receptors in target tissue like the prostate or in the skin, etc. or at a relatively low level of testosterone. Take a little look at the prescribing information on a anastrozole in the package insert.

Thanks for that clarification. One interesting question that arises is, which saturates first, the metabolite-producing enzymes or the target receptors? Does it vary between tissues and has this been quantified?

Because you include the skin as a target tissue, are you suggesting that any man susceptible to androgenetic alopecia would not see accelerated hair loss if he began injecting significant amounts of DHT? For simplicity say he's on TRT so there's minimal impact on testosterone.

 

[RobRoy]

Thanks for that clarification. One interesting question that arises is, which saturates first, the metabolite-producing enzymes or the target receptors? Does it vary between tissues and has this been quantified?

Because you include the skin as a target tissue, are you suggesting that any man susceptible to androgenetic alopecia would not see accelerated hair loss if he began injectingk significant amounts of DHT? For simplicity say he's on TRT so there's minimal impact on

Thanks for that clarification. One interesting question that arises is, which saturates first, the metabolite-producing enzymes or the target receptors? Does it vary between tissues and has this been quantified?

Because you include the skin as a target tissue, are you suggesting that any man susceptible to androgenetic alopecia would not see accelerated hair loss if he began injecting significant amounts of DHT? For simplicity say he's on TRT so there's minimal impact on testosterone.

Studies giving man transdermal DHT for 24 months exposing them to exceptionally high levels of DHT did not result in acne, male androgenic, alopecia, or other skin pathology. Target tissues have local homeostatic control mechanisms that tightly control DHT concentrations. So circulating levels have no effect even when they are Supra physiologic (700ng/dl for 24 months). There’s just so much miss information on forums that is not supported in the medical literature. So everything I’ve just written here is directly from the medical literature.

 

[Charliebizz]

Good suggestion. I have already considered this. I was only doing one click on the scrotum. I don't think half clicks are very consistent. So, I would have to get a different strength cream. I happen to have 20% and 15%, so I could drop the dose by changing the cream.

That said, I decided to try a similar dose, but on the arms. I can always push it up from there (ie, apply to well absorbed areas) once I determine I can tolerate things.

I must be a snowflake. I don't tolerate rapid changes very well.

You’re not a snowflake at all. I completely understand. But not pushing through is one of the biggest reasons I’ve been struggling for 15 years. I’ve also pushe through other protocols in the past and only got worse. So i understand you being apprehensive. Nobody can say for sure if it will work for “you“. But like I said before you’ll never be able to write cream off for good.

 

[RobRoy]

Look, man, I am not trying to be argumentative. I didn't realize this thread had a contentious history until I looked book at old posts. My intention is not to revive all that. I am literally looking for answers. I am a long time struggler on TRT for various reasons. I want to feel good, and I am looking for explanations for why I felt the way I felt. If your answer is correct, I'd be more than delighted to know that all I need to do stay away from AI's. I am not 100% convinced that was the cause, but am open to the possibility.

For what it's worth, I have taken an AI on various occasions and have never experienced the CV effects I described (n=1). This article suggests androgens have various adrenergic affects that may be relevant in my case.

I also personally don’t understand anyone that “struggles” on testosterone. Did you struggle when you were younger and had good testosterone levels? If you didn’t then why are you struggling now? If it is done correctly you should not struggle now any different than you struggled when you were younger with more optimal levels. A lot of the struggles men have is due to miss information on what testosterone does and what it doesn’t do as well as their own individual expectations. Many men also will not give testosterone time to work, especially when they first start. The body simply has to go through an acclimation process, and most men can’t deal with some minor issues that may occur initially that go away with time. They want to knee-jerk and change something that the slightest hint of a perceived problem, and if they would just leave it alone, it would go away. It’s a very very simple process

 

[Charliebizz]

I also personally don’t understand anyone that “struggles” on testosterone. Did you struggle when you were younger and had good testosterone levels? If you didn’t then why are you struggling now? If it is done correctly you should not struggle now any different than you struggled when you were younger with more optimal levels. A lot of the struggles men have is due to miss information on what testosterone does and what it doesn’t do as well as their own individual expectations. Many men also will not give testosterone time to work, especially when they first start. The body simply has to go through an acclimation process, and most men can’t deal with some minor issues that may occur initially that go away with time. They want to knee-jerk and change something that the slightest hint of a perceived problem, and if they would just leave it alone, it would go away. It’s a very very simple process

I also personally don’t understand anyone that “struggles” on testosterone. Did you struggle when you were younger and had good testosterone levels? If you didn’t then why are you struggling now? If it is done correctly you should not struggle now any different than you struggled when you were younger with more optimal levels. A lot of the struggles men have is due to miss information on what testosterone does and what it doesn’t do as well as their own individual expectations. Many men also will not give testosterone time to work, especially when they first start. The body simply has to go through an acclimation process, and most men can’t deal with some minor issues that may occur initially that go away with time. They want to knee-jerk and change something that the slightest hint of a perceived problem, and if they would just leave it alone, it would go away. It’s a very very simple process

I get what you’re saying. But why was the testosterone low in the first place. in some instances the body is lowering the hormone as a protective measure. So adding the t back in that the body wanted low adds more fuel to the fire. Some times if the root cause isn’t addressed I believe people can truly struggle. Also add in the shutdown of natural production and what the testicles produce when they are functional