These are great points. Finding the root cause is always preferable to starting supplementation.
Do you really believe what you just wrote? That the body actually lowers it as a protective measure? Give us one instance where that occurs naturally. You are writing a typical forum response that is not based on physiology or the medical literature. This is the exact problem with forums. The root cause should always be addressed first before ever initiating testosterone but unfortunately most men are looking for an easy way. Exercising consistently and cleaning up one's diet is difficult for a lot of men because it takes hard work. I don't see anyone struggle. Let me repeat, I don't see anyone struggle. Hormone optimization is a very simple process. It works in young and old and the same in men and women. It is simply raising levels of your hormones with a bio identical equivalent so that you maximize the beneficial effects of the hormone along with resolving any symptoms related to a hormone insufficiency. When you raise levels of a hormone to an optimal level and you were treating symptoms of an insufficiency in an individual and you raise levels to overcome that insufficiency any symptoms related to the hormone will improve and any symptoms left over had nothing to do with the hormone. Men tend to think that it should fix everything and it does not. Me tend to think that being on testosterone and other hormones makes them function perfectly every day of every week of every month of every year and that is not how it works. We are still human and we all still have problems that are not related to hormones. Hormone optimization is never adding "fuel to the fire" and nobody should "struggle".
You are correct. No one "should" struggle. Unfortunately, people do.
Why do you keep coming back? Why do they keep sucking you back in?
The desire to help and stop the continued misinformation but it only takes about a day or two to realize you can’t help those that don’t want to understand the actual science so then you stop trying again. Like now. Got it out of my system and now back to work
Please keep this thread civil. Both of you have excellent posts and are very knowledgeable. This is a great. discussion.
I do believe that to a degree. I could be wrong with testosterone. But I know for me personally. When all my issues started a lot of it was caused by mover training and crash dieting. I tanked Almost all my hormones. My thyroid hormones took an absolute shit. Across the board. Then when I put on some weight and stopped training so hard my thyroid hormones came back to baseline. Does testosterone work different ?
Your question is a very good question and exactly the type of questions they get asked on forums The problem is that the answer from the forums always has to be always somehow, hormone related. The answer to your question is much more complex and that is why when you are working with a provider he should ask all of the pertinent details. First of all, how old are you? Secondly, what is your past medical history? What other lifestyle factors or psychological factors may be involved in how you’re feeling and functioning. These are all detailed questions. Hormones are just one part of the equation. When you say your thyroid went back to baseline that’s where we need to do a whole lecture on thyroid, and what true optimization is. Was your baseline thyroid level optimal? I doubt it was. Men need to realize that the symptoms of low thyroid and testosterone look the same in many areas and the reason some men don’t get some symptoms improved on testosterone is because they are throwing testosterone at a thyroid problem. So you stopped working out and gained a lot of weight and of course you’re not going to feel good. The trifecta of health is nutrition, exercise, and hormone optimization. so, your provider should be asking you very detailed questions about your symptoms, your pas medical history, present medication‘s, present medical disorders, questions about work and family, and most importantly, understanding your expectations of how you think you should feel and function, as well as your understanding about what each and everyone of the hormones do, and don’t do. Most problems on these forums are with men that have unrealistic expectations or they have this preconceived notion of how they think they should feel and function and if they don’t, then somethings not working and they are “struggling”. The sweat equity has to be put in by the patient. They have to put in the hard work, which is the nutrition, the exercise, adequate sleep, stress, reduction, etc. The providers job is to make sure the hormones are fully optimal. It’s just understanding that each and every hormone has beneficial effects and you maximize the beneficial effects by optimizing levels. There is a dose response relationship. No, everyone cannot tolerate the same amount, and everyone does not need the same levels and that’s based on their own individual androgen receptor sensitivities. It’s a simple, balancing act between optimizing levels of maximizing benefits, and avoiding any unwanted side effects. When hormone replacement therapy is done correctly there should never be a need for any medication’s to control symptoms of excess or anything else no different that you didn’t need any medication when you were in high school or college age with excellent hormone levels.
Can you explain to me the reason why dht is higher on the cream? And on one hand you say the the metabolite (dht-e2) follow t. Then why the difference I know the Theory more receptors in the scrotum. But then that kind of throws out the whole thing your saying that manipulating those said hormones are worthless.
Manipulating those said hormones are worthless. Both injections and the cream raise DHT levels. There is more five alpha reductase in the scrotal skin so it's going to convert more of the testosterone to DHT. But that does not mean the target tissues have higher DHT levels because they don't. What you measure is not what's at the tissue level. DHT levels in the tissues are tightly regulated and have their own homeostatic mechanisms. So you can raise DHT 10 times normal and measure that in the serum put in the tissues it will remain constant. So if you raise testosterone levels using injections you will also raise DHT levels and if you have an optimal level of testosterone you are fully saturate the receptors at the tissue levels. Raising it even higher with the cream does not have any further effect at the tissue level you're just measuring higher DHT in the serum which is just excess.
So what do you think is behind som men just feeling better overall on the cream? Even if we keep levels the same vs injections. Lots of people speculated the boost in dht. But doesn’t seem like that’s the truth.
I always find a person that has had a strong family history and personal history of a very specific problem prior to testosterone then associate it with getting testosterone. So let's be real clear you have a history of migraines and have had migraines for many many years prior to getting testosterone. You are also going to continue to have migraines while on testosterone. You probably had normal levels before starting testosterone and you found that the testosterone had no effect on your headaches and it's not going to. So you really have two choices. You can understand the tremendous benefits that testosterone provides you on multiple organ systems and have your migraines treated just like you're going to have to have them treated off the testosterone or just don't do testosterone and still have your migraines treated because they're going to continue. So have your migraines treated off of testosterone or on testosterone. That's your choice. You can't change your genetics. And when a man has optimal testosterone and has had it for years he does not all of a sudden start feeling bad because of the testosterone. Testosterone does not stop working but as I've said many times before people do. They'll stop doing what they need to do but as long as you take the hormones and have consistently good levels for you it will continue to work for you the rest of your life.
Most men that are on injections only raised all levels a little bit. When you raise your levels a little bit you raise DHT a little bit. The cream raise DHT much more for any given level of testosterone therefore it can have a better effect on libido and sexual function. But if you give a man an optimal level of testosterone with injectables they will raise DHT enough to fully saturate the receptors and give just a good effect on libido and sexual function. The free T for any given total level in every single man I've ever seen that switched from one method to the other is always higher on the cream. I don't understand all the focus on all the minutia. No matter how you get testosterone raise your free testosterone to an optimal level and then go live your life.
Well because that’s what pushes this field forward. Asking questions and getting to the bottom of why things work or why they don’t. Like I said. I feel better on cream overall and my ft levels are exactly the same as on injectables. Maybe the amount of time I spend at the level (cream vs injections ) is different. And that is the factor why I feel better not sure. Im just curious. I like to know how things tick. I’m very happy with the cream. Again just curious. Especially because it’s such a hot topic and nobody really has a clear cut explanation.
I'm traveling so I'm limited with what I can get done but let me be a little more specific. If I were treating you I would first and foremost tell you that we are going to have to work with the hand that you have been dealt. Unfortunately we sometimes have to work within some constraints. You have a strong family history of migraines that you feel worsens with testosterone. Now we know you can tolerate some degree of testosterone because you've made it all of your adult life and you had probably decent levels in your teens and early 20s. We also know that in men with migraines that no treatment guidelines recommend lowering testosterone levels to improve the migraines.
When the creams applied daily the levels are very consistent and from the peak after application to the second application there's only about a 25% drop. So levels stay very good 24/7 with constant application. Unless you're doing a daily injections you can't really compare free testosterone levels to the daily cream.
Reasonable logic. Appreciate your thoughts.
That’s pretty much what I was assuming is going on looking at it logically. But for some reason for me personally. I felt worse overall on daily injections. Then 3x a week. However maybe I didn’t find the right dose on daily’s for me. Whatever the case may be. I’m enjoying the cream and all my other blood markers are fantastic. I also like the flexibility of how fast things can go back in the right direction if you change dose and get negative symptoms. All in all the cream has me feeling the best I have on trt.
