Test cream users: Do you feel better with 1x/day or 2X/day application?

[MNguy]

I’ve been in test cream for a while now. Still working on dialing in my protocol, but seeing improvements. I have usually gone with a 1X/day application, applied right after I shower in the AM. But now I’m wondering if I would feel better if I spaced my dose out to 2X/day. Just curious what people’s experience has been?

Thanks!

 

[Cooper]

how many clicks and where applied?

 

[MNguy]

how many clicks and where applied?

I take 2 clicks for a total of 100mg. It’s not a lot, but I absorb like crazy.

 

[Fortunate]

I tried cream a while back. Initially did very well and then tapered off. At that time, was on twice a day. When I started to feel things go south, I changed to once a day.

Now trying it again. I am currently doing once in the morning and once in the late afternoon. If I don’t do that, I feel a crash coming on.

Will update once I gather more data.

 

[DorianGray]

I feel more stable physically with once in the morning application. Anything additional later in the day, I feel slightly more anxious, sleep less well and find libido depressed.

 

[Zibernet]

I feel more stable physically with once in the morning application. Anything additional later in the day, I feel slightly more anxious, sleep less well and find libido depressed.

Do you supplement with Pregnenolone?

 

[DixieWrecked]

Once a day for me is sufficient as well. I don't notice any benefit by applying more than that. Nelson has posted bloodwork showing that his levels are still elevated 24 hours after application.

 

[Fortunate]

I would prefer once a day. Based on (very limited) experience, I start to feel like I am crashing in late afternoon, which is why I have done twice a day.

The initial dose may play a role, however. I happen to have a 15% cream (many use 20%). I do one scrotal click and one shoulder click in the AM (total of 75mg). I wonder if I did a higher dose in the AM if that would make the PM dose less necessary?

I also have 20% cream. I could try upping the AM dose to answer this question. But, for now (again, very limited data), current protocol is working. Don't want to upset the delicate apple cart!

 

[Lookingforward]

It all depends on concentration. If you aren't increasing your dosage then there would be no benefit of doing it multiple times a day.

 

[DorianGray]

Do you supplement with Pregnenolone?

I take it in addition to dhea. I have taken dhea alone before but honestly, I can't tell any difference between adding pregnenolone or taking dhea alone. Don't feel any different.

 

[Dicky]

I split my dose into 2 applications. I have tried 1X/day but feel better with 2X.

 

[Fortunate]

A common complaint about cream is that it can give excellent initial results, but guys often feel the benefit does not last very long. As with all forms of TRT, the transition to or from a protocol can cause you to feel a certain way (honeymoon period). Often, guys hop around protocols because they equate honeymoon ending to "something is wrong" and/or, they feel funky on a new protocol and don't give it enough time (guilty as charged - I have done this many times!). This may be part of the cream phenomenon, but with the cream, it seems different, and I wonder if there is something else at play besides the honeymoon ending.

I have done a few trials on cream and have experienced the initial benefit followed by a large drop-off. The first time was really great initially, with results fading. Eventually, I ended up feeling anxious and bad. I have a (very non-scientific) theory on why the benefit may be transient. I suspect it may have to do with the drug's half-life. I have seen pharmacokinetic data on testicular cream, but it only goes out to 16 hours. I suspect the half-life may be sufficiently long that you are not close to a trough by the time you apply cream every morning. This would lead to gradual increasing T levels. When they get high enough, you start to feel bad for a variety of reasons (T and metabolites are too high). This may explain why some guys have posted extremely high T levels on the cream.

I have noticed feeling anxious and jittery a full 24 hours after using cream, before applying my next dose. I wonder if it would work better if applied over a larger time interval. However, figuring out that interval might be really hard and applying cream at different times each day would be impractical.

In any case, this theory may already be out there. I admit I haven't researched it much, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

 

[Zibernet]

A common complaint about cream is that it can give excellent initial results, but guys often feel the benefit does not last very long. As with all forms of TRT, the transition to or from a protocol can cause you to feel a certain way (honeymoon period). Often, guys hop around protocols because they equate honeymoon ending to "something is wrong" and/or, they feel funky on a new protocol and don't give it enough time (guilty as charged - I have done this many times!). This may be part of the cream phenomenon, but with the cream, it seems different, and I wonder if there is something else at play besides the honeymoon ending.

I have done a few trials on cream and have experienced the initial benefit followed by a large drop-off. The first time was really great initially, with results fading. Eventually, I ended up feeling anxious and bad. I have a (very non-scientific) theory on why the benefit may be transient. I suspect it may have to do with the drug's half-life. I have seen pharmacokinetic data on testicular cream, but it only goes out to 16 hours. I suspect the half-life may be sufficiently long that you are not close to a trough by the time you apply cream every morning. This would lead to gradual increasing T levels. When they get high enough, you start to feel bad for a variety of reasons (T and metabolites are too high). This may explain why some guys have posted extremely high T levels on the cream.

I have noticed feeling anxious and jittery a full 24 hours after using cream, before applying my next dose. I wonder if it would work better if applied over a larger time interval. However, figuring out that interval might be really hard and applying cream at different times each day would be impractical.

In any case, this theory may already be out there. I admit I haven't researched it much, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

That could be one explaination.

The other could be that after some time you are shutting down and your natural production isn't added to your exogenous application, so you need to apply more.

 

[Fortunate]

I wanted to post some feedback to function as a datapoint for anyone out there using or considering cream. I have used Natesto in the past on a long term basis, but for a few reasons, have been looking for alternatives. Among a few other protocols, I have tried and stopped cream a few times. While exploring new protocols, I have been using Natesto to bridge me from one treatment protocol to the next.

I have two cream strengths, 200mg/ml and 150mg/ml. Both Atrevis base. This gave me the ability to really fine tune dosing, allowing me to try 1,2,3 or 4 clicks from either strength at various locations (scrotum vs. shoulder). I introduced even more variability by trying these combinations once a day vs. twice a day. If you do the math, there are many iterations.

I won't bore with play-by-play details, but I tried a variety of combinations. It seemed like I got decent results with 1 click scrotum/1click shoulder in the AM and 1 click shoulder in the late afternoon (total of 112.5mg/day). However, like I experienced the first time I tried cream, I eventually start to feel "over the top". I would describe it as an uncomfortable, hyped up feeling coupled with mild anxiety. I noted a higher resting heart rate than normal. I actually experienced what I think were periodic PVC's (premature ventricular contractions) - which felt like an off-tempo heartbeat for one contraction followed by normal rhythm. This last observation is hard to pin down to TRT, but I am fairly confident it was related to whatever hormone levels I had at the time. Technically, to be really diligent, I could have really ramped down my dose, been more patient and followed symptoms over a longer period of time. But, as the subject of the experiment, that can be hard. I was reasonably methodical about following the subjective experience based on how much I was applying and when. But to be really useful information, it would require sticking to a specific dose for much longer than I did. So, take this all with a grain of salt.

Further, unfortunately, I can't provide labs, which would be a useful data point. I didn't bother getting labs because each trial on cream only lasted 2-4 weeks, and typically, we should wait until six weeks before getting labs. It would be useful to try to assign the subjective experience to a certain level of T, DHT and/or e2. That said, I can tell you that I am fairly confident my levels were supraphysiologic based on how I felt.

I have posted previously my theory on why so many guys around here have tested extremely high T levels while on cream. I think it is related to a mismatch between the drug half-life and the application schedule (daily). Dose would play into this as well. I suspect that each time I applied cream, I pushed everything up (peak, trough and average levels). Theoretically, this should be somewhat under our control, as we can titrate the dosing a bit by number of clicks and location.

In any case, during my most recent experience on cream, once again, I started feeling bad (anxious, hyped up, low grade headache). So, I decided to transition away from cream again. @Cataceous has been incredibly helpful in my exploring a new protocol. I have yet to start that, but I wanted to share my experience, not only with being on cream, but also with stopping it.

Two days ago, I applied 37.5mg to the scrotum/37.5mg to the shoulder in the AM and 37.5mg to the shoulder in the PM. That evening, I decided it was time to stop. 24 hours after the last AM cream dose and roughly 12 hours from the PM cream dose, the next morning, I started Natesto again (logic was that T levels should be declined by then). I still felt a bit hyped up from the cream, but tolerable. Then, by around 4-5PM, 36 hours after the AM cream dose and 24 hours after the very last PM cream dose, I started feeling terrible. Dizzy, rapid heart rate, bad migraine. It lasted until around the middle of the night and I had to use triptan medication to deal with the migraine.

Why is all this relevant? I think the terrible experience was related to the hormone transition. I felt kinda bad with what I assume were high levels, but I felt ten times worse during what I assume was a transition period. My assumption is that the bigger the drop in levels, the more subjectively noticeable this transition would be. It is commonly believed that women who experience migraines around the time of their period are sensitive to sudden drops in estrogen levels. It's the decline down that makes them get the headaches. My logic tells that based on how bad I felt, there may have been a sharp drop in some combination of hormone levels. Maybe it was E2 alone that caused this? Maybe T, DHT and E2?

As I said above, having labs would answer all this, but based on how bad this subjective experience was, I concluded that I must have had very supraphysiologic levels that dropped relatively quickly. While all this is conjecture, let it be a cautionary tale demonstrating using cream may cause dangerously high levels and how challenging using cream can be.

I would not 100% rule out another trial in the future, but at this point, I am very leery. As many wiser than me have said already, go low and slow and try to be patient.

 

[Trip McNeely]

A common complaint about cream is that it can give excellent initial results, but guys often feel the benefit does not last very long. As with all forms of TRT, the transition to or from a protocol can cause you to feel a certain way (honeymoon period). Often, guys hop around protocols because they equate honeymoon ending to "something is wrong" and/or, they feel funky on a new protocol and don't give it enough time (guilty as charged - I have done this many times!). This may be part of the cream phenomenon, but with the cream, it seems different, and I wonder if there is something else at play besides the honeymoon ending.

I have done a few trials on cream and have experienced the initial benefit followed by a large drop-off. The first time was really great initially, with results fading. Eventually, I ended up feeling anxious and bad. I have a (very non-scientific) theory on why the benefit may be transient. I suspect it may have to do with the drug's half-life. I have seen pharmacokinetic data on testicular cream, but it only goes out to 16 hours. I suspect the half-life may be sufficiently long that you are not close to a trough by the time you apply cream every morning. This would lead to gradual increasing T levels. When they get high enough, you start to feel bad for a variety of reasons (T and metabolites are too high). This may explain why some guys have posted extremely high T levels on the cream.

I have noticed feeling anxious and jittery a full 24 hours after using cream, before applying my next dose. I wonder if it would work better if applied over a larger time interval. However, figuring out that interval might be really hard and applying cream at different times each day would be impractical.

In any case, this theory may already be out there. I admit I haven't researched it much, but just wanted to share my thoughts.

I think you're onto something here. This graph shows the serum testosterone levels for up to 16 hours following a single application of scrotal T cream. Note that the highest dose on the graph is only 50mg, which is one-fourth what many people on this forum take, and levels are still elevated after 16 hours. I'd love to see where 100mg has an average male after 16-24 hours, but extrapolating the data shown here, I bet it's over 1000 ng/dl. It seems pretty clear that unless you're an outlier who metabolizes the cream abnormally fast, once a day is best. Not to mention that afternoon/evening dose is a pain in the ass. Who wants to plan around it when you're on vacation or out with your friends/significant other?

 

[Fortunate]

I agree. You may have seen my most recent post. At this point I had to bail on the cream. I trialed once a day and most recently was doing twice a day. I actually happen to be on vacation this week (allowing me to play with all this and post accordingly). Like you pointed out, twice a day has been a bit of a pain. I'd be willing to do it if it was the best solution, but I think even once a day pushes levels way too high. I suspect the application schedule should be every 36 hours, but have no idea. Just guessing based on the way I felt yesterday (after stopping the cream trial).

 

[Trip McNeely]

I agree. You may have seen my most recent post. At this point I had to bail on the cream. I trialed once a day and most recently was doing twice a day. I actually happen to be on vacation this week (allowing me to play with all this and post accordingly). Like you pointed out, twice a day has been a bit of a pain. I'd be willing to do it if it was the best solution, but I think even once a day pushes levels way too high. I suspect the application schedule should be every 36 hours, but have no idea. Just guessing based on the way I felt yesterday (after stopping the cream trial).

How much are you using per day? And have you had your levels tested at peak (3-5 hours after application)? The solution may be to just lower the dose.

 

[Fortunate]

How much are you using per day? And have you had your levels tested at peak (3-5 hours after application)? The solution may be to just lower the dose.

Have not done labs (see post above). Dose has been 75-112.5 mg per day.

Agree. Lower dose may be the answer. However, my doses are already relatively low compared to what many are doing.

If I ever try again, it will indeed be at a lower starting point.

 

[Trip McNeely]

Have not done labs (see post above). Dose has been 75-112.5 mg per day.

Agree. Lower dose may be the answer. However, my doses are already relatively low compared to what many are doing.

If I ever try again, it will indeed be at a lower starting point.

Try 50mg on the nutsack once a day in the morning. That's the dose that the Australian pharma CEO who funded the study depicted in my graph concluded was ideal for most men.

 

[Willyt]

I have suspected that the buildup of DHT over time was the main culprit for some guys feeling like crap on scrotal cream after that initial honeymoon phase.

On a related note, there was one guy on another forum who would supplement injections with cream, but only once every 7-10 days to bump up DHT levels without overdoing it. I would be surprised if the DHT increase from a single application would last that long, but the guy seemed to be having success with the approach.