And it's all done so incorrectly out there as well. Whenever you say you try to make you feel worse it tells me absolutely nothing. Was it done correctly first and foremost? That can only be established with thorough history taking. Do men really think that when they optimize testosterone and thyroid for instance, that they're going to feel great all the time? Do they really think they're not gonna have a bad week or bad month and not feel good many days out of the year? Hormones don't work that way. You take the hormones to overcome symptoms of a deficiency. You get enough of the hormone to overcome that deficiency, and those symptoms will improve if related it to the hormone. If they don't approve, it's not the hormone. Men with the most optimal hormones on the planet, are still going to feel bad many days, or maybe even weeks throughout the year based on a multitude of other factors.
Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
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Thyroid hormones and cortisol go hand in hand. So a cortisol deficiency could explain a worsening of symptoms with increasing thyroid dose.
Everyone always wants to bring up cortisol, but once you get testosterone and thyroid optimal, very few men need any cortisol treatment. Once again, that's over complicates everything. One thing at a time. Get testosterone optimal and if one still has any symptoms such as fatigue, brain fog, or lack of mental clarity, etc. then optimize thyroid.If Anyone has symptoms after that then you can look at cortisol, but very few ever do. This over complicating a very simple process is what causes most men their problems
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
I agree with you 100%. The problem is the forums and YouTube “gurus” and pop up trt clinics are selling a lot of men pipe dreams. I’ve taken all forms of thyroid. And pushed my numbers up as far as I could tolerate. Just never felt right on it. Honestly my only real complaint health wise now is low body temps and cold intolerance. But I’m telling you I never felt right on thyroid.
I’ve tried thyroid with treating cortisol. That was probably my worst experience to date lol. However I used t4 mono in the past and it boosted my cortisol to the top of range. But I never felt stable on thyroid meds at all.
As with everything on forums, you only know a very little bit. Is anything about how thyroid was optimized. How was it provided? What were the levels? What were the symptoms for what it was started for? How long was the trial of thyroid supplementation? It takes months for someone to get their thyroid optimal. You have to start with those and then give it 4-6 weeks then get levels and make adjustments, etc. Problem you say over and over again with testosterone and thyroid is men just don't have any patience whatsoever
I guarantee you you've never had things done correctly. But I'll also tell you this if your only problems are low body temp and cold tolerance, then that doesn't sound so bad if everything else is doing well. If That's all you got to complain about then that's not much to complain about and most men will be happy in your shoes
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with you on that also. I chased that cortisol dragon for far too long. And it held me back from getting better. I’m in a decent place now. Just the damn cold intolerance
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
I used armour for 3 months plus. But wasn’t getting any symptom resolution. And the more I pushed the dose up the more side effects I started getting. One being excruciating Headaches. i Tried a few times too so it wasn’t a one off. I used protocols that you and dr Neil promote to no avail. I also have pretty good natural thyroid labs (not saying they are optimal). I feel just About back to normal (for me ) since I yanked my hormones in my early 20s. The only issue I still have is cold intolerance
Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Honestly you’re right .But being that I run heavy machinery and do have to bear the elements in the winters of New York. It gets in my damn head. But i need to remind myself how bad I used to be and just man up. I really want to thank you for your work with the scrotal cream. It’s been life changing for me!!!!
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
Have you tried anything with your diet to see if it impacts these symptoms? I know my cold tolerance is much improved and I feel warmer in winter when I'm eating fatty meat-based carnivore. One of my first symptoms if I overdo it with carbs is I'll start feeling cold again.
The inuit weren't eating rice and beans. If you think about human history, the colder the environment we were in, the less carbs were available to eat, approaching zero when you're far enough north. Higher carb environments are found closer to the equator.
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Charliebizz
Well-Known Member
Honestly just got off vacation and I completely ate like shit. Mostly carbs and I was nice and warm. I did modifies carnivore in the past but it was warm out and wasn’t monitoring my temps. It did lower my triglycerides a ton. But other then that I didn’t feel much different.
Oh wow, never really thought about this evolutionary/ location based connection with temps and carb rich foods, very interesting!
Just got back from Disney myself, ate like complete trash! lol. Looking forward to getting back on track
... androgens negatively control expression/activity of aromatase in males, DHT is more active than T;...[R]
... At low concentrations (0.01 and 0.1 micro M), DHT stimulated aromatase activity but did not affect [11C]-vorozole binding. At the higher concentrations tested (1 and 10 micro M) DHT suppressed both processes thus weakly binding the aromatase active site.[R]
... The addition of 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) into cultures of FSH-stimulated cells during the induction period resulted in a definite dose-dependent inhibition (30-70%) of the aromatase activity expressed in the test period.[R]
... Furthermore, DHT, binding to the estrogen receptor, can act as an inhibitor of estrogen action.[R]
... Namely, treating breast cancer cells with physiological concentrations of DHT resulted in almost complete inhibition (97%) of estrogen binding sites (and as such, transcription effects of estrogen)...[R]
You're really on a roll now.
OMG! I would call this a very desperate attempt to make a point.
Lets see female rat cells, porcine granulosa cells, more rat cells, and then breast cancer cells. All IN VITRO CELL STUDIES!!!!! Most in rats and pigs!
You still don't get it because you really don't have any education in research or medicine.
Its Posts like yours that point out the ridiculousness of the information obtained on forums.
Let me make it real simple for you. These are all real interesting in vitro studies. I can give you literally hundreds or maybe even thousands of in vitro studies that are interesting and thought-provoking. But what you do if you want to know if DHT binds to the estrogen receptor in humans and inhibits estrogen action or if it directly affects aromatase then you give it to humans as part of a randomized controlled trial and see if it in fact does. Well guess what? We have done that over and over and over again. We've been raising DHT as well with testosterone for 85 years. So when you give it to humans does it block aromatase activity or does it bind to the estrogen receptor? The answer is no. When we give DHT it shuts down our production of testosterone therefore shutting down our production of estradiol.
So why don't you spend your time continuing to abstract surf which is the lowest of low and at least spend the time studying up on humans. You can leave all the in vitro animal studies alone. Focus on giving humans DHT or giving humans testosterone which raises DHT. What happens when we get transdermal or injectable testosterone? We raise the DHT. But wait a minute if we do that wouldn't that block the estrogen receptor or aromatase activity and therefore men's estradiol shouldn't be going up? But the estradiol does go up whenever we give testosterone the matter what method of delivery. When they give transdermal DHT and raise levels even above 700 or more it doesn't bind to the estrogen receptor or shut down aromatase activity? NO! It actually shuts down testosterone and shuts down estradiol due to the negative feedback on the hypothalamic pituitary axis
Thanks for sending me the in vitro cell studies and most amusingly using rat and porcine cells. I got a good laugh today thank you.
I will wait patiently on human studies
A super moderator of super misinformation. Just like in the past whenever I introduced scrotal cream, and the harm of blocking estradiol, it was met with responses just like yours today. Instead of really taking the time to read what's already been posted in the literature that's already been posted and say any hey man thank you for trying to educate us on what could be a confusing topic to a lot of men. But instead you abstract surf with in vitro Petri dish studies in rodents and pigs and apply that to humans. Do you understand how incorrect that is? If you want to know what DHT does to humans that take it, then look at the studies and see what it does. Just because it does it in a petri dish doesn't mean it's going to do it in vivo.
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All of the above is why I personally prefer to research personal anecdotes and labs, over studies. Most studies, especially ones that have to do with males and sex hormones, are either flawed or corrupt, or both. It’s unfortunately not common for a study done on hormones and males to cover all its bases, and leave zero need for the people conducting the study to extrapolate results to come to their final conclusions. Imo, a little common sense, critical thinking skills, personal anecdotes and labwork can go a long way when learning about hormones and the male body. And these are the ways I personally prefer to learn. But I do fully appreciate guys that are more study based, with their research, and then share their knowledge with the rest of us. Unfortunately, I do think there’s possibly more cons, than pros, with studies done in any other animal other than a human, when considering how certain things affect the human body, and a high risk for misinformation to be spread
So what are ur thoughts on how DHT derivatives affect estrogen? Let’s take primobolan, for example. Primo 100% lowers E2, and lowers it quite effectively, in most men. This we know for a fact. So ur saying that straight DHT has no estrogen inhibiting properties, but certain DHT derivatives do?
and then we also have to take into consideration DHT derivatives like masteron and proviron, that inhibit estrogen‘s effects, but will not lower E2 on a blood test. As far as I know, proviron is basically straight DHT. And then I’ve heard that masteron is basically the injectable version of Proviron.
So is there a chance that straight DHT doesn’t lower E2 on a blood test, but still can lessen the effects of estrogen within the person‘s body, similar to how masteron and Proviron do?
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What would be greatly appreciated is that if you would actually as well others read all the previous posts before commenting because it has already been explained multiple times. How does primo and other DHT derivatives lower estrogen? How does DHT itself lower estrogen? Giving DHT directly will lower estrogen on a blood test, it absolutely will. But how does it do that is the question?
When you give DHT or primo it will suppress testosterone production and estrogen comes from testosterone because it is one of its active metabolites. So when you give DHT and suppress testosterone by 90% you are going to suppress the production of estradiol along with it. What is there not to understand about that?
ESTROGEN COMES FROM THE AROMATIZATION OF TESTOSTERONE.
When you give another anabolic substance like pure DHT or an anabolic steroid you are going to suppress your testosterone production, therefore suppressing estradiol production. That's how it lowers estradiol. Sounds great doesn't it let's take pure DHT, or an anabolic steroid, and completely suppress our testosterone production, along with our estradiol and then die from cardiovascular disease and all the other complications of blocking or suppressing estradiol. More than half of the beneficial effects from testosterone come from its aromatization into estradiol. That's why it's called the diversification pathway. It diversifies testosterones actions in multiple tissues. It's imperative for the brain, bone, heart, blood vessels, liver, and sexual function just to name a few
"All of the above is why I personally prefer to research personal anecdotes and labs, over studies. Most studies, especially ones that have to do with males and sex hormones, are either flawed or corrupt, or both. It’s unfortunately not common for a study done on hormones and males to cover all its bases, and leave zero need for the people conducting the study to extrapolate results to come to their final conclusions. Imo, a little common sense, critical thinking skills, personal anecdotes and labwork can go a long way when learning about hormones and the male body. And these are the ways I personally prefer to learn. But I do fully appreciate guys that are more study based, with their research, and then share their knowledge with the rest of us. Unfortunately, I do think there’s possibly more cons, than pros, with studies done in any other animal other than a human, when considering how certain things affect the human body, and a high risk for misinformation to be spread"
1. There are many excellent studies done out there, utilizing hormones in men and women. We can't pick and choose which ones we like to except and ignore based on our own personal biases.
2. In vitro studies are done that are very helpful but what they do is they generate a hypothesis. They can be interesting and thought-provoking but then you have to take what you see in the lab and see if it applies when you actually give it to a human. That's why we do the studies. Many things that you see in a laboratory do not happen when given to humans.
3." Imo, a little common sense, critical thinking skills, personal anecdotes and labwork can go a long way when learning about hormones and the male body"
How about adding " an extensive knowledge of the medical literature in both men and women along with biology and physiology....with "a little common sense, critical thinking skills, personal anecdotes and labwork can go a long way when learning about hormones and the male body".
Here's another one for you to think about since you follow labs and personal antidotes. When you measure DHT and estradiol in the serum in men on testosterone does it reflect what's occurring at the tissue level? Is it an accurate measure of tissue levels of DHT and estradiol is the question?
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No idea what’s going on at a tissue level. Don’t think we can measure that currently. But I do know that I’ve read thousands of anecdotes at this point of men with low E2 symptoms, that match their low E2 in their serum on a blood test, and have also personally experienced low E2 symptoms, while concurrently have a very low E2 in my serum on a blood test. So regardless of what’s going on at a tissue/ cell level, a serum level does hold value, to a degree, and does tell us important information about what’s going on with estrogen levels in our body
and I couldn’t agree more. There are still plenty of studies that have very valid and useful information, and I think it’s extremely important to also look at them, on top of learning as much as we can about the human body and how it works, as well as being able to use common sense and critical thinking skills, when evaluating real life anecdotes and labs. I personally just don’t look over studies much. But I’m just one person. Luckily most people here do. And I’ve been obsessed with the human body and health and longevity since I can remember, and have also been in the medical field for about 20 years. So I do know quite a bit about how the human body works and functions. But I have no problem admitting that I don’t spend much time looking over studies.
Ur theory on DHT obv applies to natural men that use DHT or a DHT derivative, but how do u explain primobolan lowering E2 in the serum on a blood test in men on exogenous testosterone that are already shut down?
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Men with low serum estradiol levels have low tissue, estradiol levels, because what you measure in the serum is actually spill over from the tissues where it is made. When you lower body fat, you also lower estradiol. So when you take anabolic steroids, have any kind, you're going to have an increase in lean muscle mass and decrease in fat mass, which will decrease estradiol. But what happens when you take that aromatase inhibitor or lower your estradiol is that it increases your visceral body fat. That's why bodybuilders die from the inside out it is from the aromatase inhibition. Bodybuilders have low estradiol levels, cause they have not much adipose tissue subcutaneously, which therefore will not convert a lot of the testosterone to estradiol that you're measuring in the serum. That's where most of it comes from from the peripheral aromatization and more specifically the adipose tissue. But look man what you're talking about when it comes to the anabolic steroids have absolutely nothing and I mean nothing to do with what I do. It has no place in testosterone therapy or hormone replacement therapy at all. Your questions do not relate to people that are on hormone replacement therapy or testosterone therapy. You're a proper to the problem not the solution. What I mean by that is anabolic steroid use, and the use of all these mixtures of anabolic substances has zero to do with hormone replacement therapy in normal men and women. It is where all of the misinformation comes from as well.
In healthy men , serum levels of E2 reflect the total E2 that has diffused into the blood from all tissues having been synthesized by aromatase and escaped local tissue metabolism. These blood levels, no matter how accurately measured, are an indirect reflection of estrogen at the tissue level
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