T Propionate protocol

[tropicaldaze1950]

MK677 Pros:
1. GH secretagogue AND Somatostatin inhibiter (Increased endogenous GH secretion)
2. 50% increase in SWS (slow wave sleep - restorative stage 3 & 4 sleep)
3. Hunger via its grelin receptor agonism (pro only if bulking \ underweight)

MK677 Cons:
1. Hunger via its grelin receptor agonism (con if the goal is cutting or overweight)
2. Potential minor prolactin increase
3. Possible bloat and water retention


In my opinion it's not going to work at all for sleep if you are currently hooked on benzos. Its not a sleep med, but a sleep improver - if you could get to sleep in the first place. It will improve your sleep if you were to wean off the benzos, a long long painful process which is out of scope of this topic.

I have no idea why but benzos (Valium, long half life) give me ED for 2 days or so. I use benzos very occasionally. This benzo ED completely negates any erection benefit from Prop I have written about previously on this thread.

Methylene blue - I have used this extensively years ago when trying to combat systemic candidiasis. It made my pee blue but that was it. I see now that there is an active reddit community about its alleged nootropic benefits, but I experienced none of that.

Appreciate your detailed reply. Regarding diazepam an ED, took it on and off in my 20's. My father would get a three month supply from the Veterans Hospital. I don't recall, at that time of my life, that it interfered with erections but doctors have told me clonazepam will, or can, cause ED. Yet, most nights, for the past three or four months, been getting one strong erection. That was with Test E. Since I still have a vial and a half of rx Test Prop, thought I'd try it for a couple of months.

 

[SSHSSA74]

MK677 Pros:
1. GH secretagogue AND Somatostatin inhibiter (Increased endogenous GH secretion)
2. 50% increase in SWS (slow wave sleep - restorative stage 3 & 4 sleep)
3. Hunger via its grelin receptor agonism (pro only if bulking \ underweight)

MK677 Cons:
1. Hunger via its grelin receptor agonism (con if the goal is cutting or overweight)
2. Potential minor prolactin increase
3. Possible bloat and water retention


In my opinion it's not going to work at all for sleep if you are currently hooked on benzos. Its not a sleep med, but a sleep improver - if you could get to sleep in the first place. It will improve your sleep if you were to wean off the benzos, a long long painful process which is out of scope of this topic.

I have no idea why but benzos (Valium, long half life) give me ED for 2 days or so. I use benzos very occasionally. This benzo ED completely negates any erection benefit from Prop I have written about previously on this thread.

Methylene blue - I have used this extensively years ago when trying to combat systemic candidiasis. It made my pee blue but that was it. I see now that there is an active reddit community about its alleged nootropic benefits, but I experienced none of that.

Going to try this.

 

[BillyJ03z]

My doctor reordered me Propionate @ 100mg/ml from Empower and I already have new unopened Cyp @ 200mg/ml.... I am going to be trying a 50/50 ratio of Cyp/Prop @ 15mg = 11.4 pure test. Since I inject ED, I really don't see the need to load my body with Cyp esters which makes me carry additional unnecessary water weight. I previously tried the 80/20 Cyp/Prop blend (labs posted previously in this thread) and I had some good variation. I don't think it's good to be constantly level with long esters like Cyp/Ent on ED injects. Since I may still be playing around with ratios I will not mix together, instead I will just utilize 2 separate SubQ injects at same time.

 

[Willyt]

My doctor reordered me Propionate @ 100mg/ml from Empower and I already have new unopened Cyp @ 200mg/ml.... I am going to be trying a 50/50 ratio of Cyp/Prop @ 15mg = 11.4 pure test. Since I inject ED, I really don't see the need to load my body with Cyp esters which makes me carry additional unnecessary water weight. I previously tried the 80/20 Cyp/Prop blend (labs posted previously in this thread) and I had some good variation. I don't think it's good to be constantly level with long esters like Cyp/Ent on ED injects. Since I may still be playing around with ratios I will not mix together, instead I will just utilize 2 separate SubQ injects at same time.

It will be interesting see how you fare with 1:1 versus 4:1. I lose water weight as soon as I increase the prop percentage.

 

[Gus80]

As promised, I am reporting back a summary of my experiment. Objective was deeper sleep. Dose is 20mg daily AM subq into upper bum fat pad.

Sleep (main objective): Total failure. Sleep is WORSE than cypionate. Completely decimated. Like using Tren. No issue getting to sleep but waking up 2am and then having this in-between sleep wakeful state (lets call it stage 1/2 sleep). Feels like a total lack of deep stage 3-4 sleep. Will discuss further in the concluding paragraph.

Libido: Was never my objective (libido was ok on cyp). So I was shocked to see my libido go up to 11. Rock hard diamond titanium erections, anytime all the time. Everything looks hot. Sometimes problematically and inappropriately so.

Gym performance (weights): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "feels like" 500mg cyp. Am making many PRs.

Gains \ muscle fullness (looks wise): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "looks like" 500mg cyp or even better. Strange.

Cardio ability (especially jogging): Excellent. Again, better than cyp of 70-200mg. Could be due to below point on water retention.

Water retention: Now I understand what people mean when they say prop is "dry". Ankle water us gone. I can jog properly again without pain! Yet scale weight is up, so I have an increase in lean mass.

Laziness, lethargy, drive and aggression: Less lazy than cyp and more aggression and drive.

Conclusion and way forward:

In light of the multitude of benefits, I am continuing with the prop forever. Yet the sleep issue is devastating. So therefore my focus is now on resolving the sleep issues caused by it. Have played with low dose diazepam (1/4 or 1/2 of a 5mg tablet), a few drinks in the evening, MK677, various antihistamines in high dose, melatonin etc etc etc. All the usual bodybuilder "trensomnia" remedies (even though this is not tren) All work to some extent. Please, no doomsday comments on the diazepam. It was a temporary trial which is over.

Will lower prop dose to 15mg daily (105mg / week) and then 10mg daily and also spend more time with MK-677 which is the safest of all of the above options. If I can get deep sleep with a lower dose of prop without needing to resort to any sleeping aids, I am willing to compromise to some extent on the benefits of the prop. Will eventually report back on that outcome, going to need a while to get the perfect balance.

Please fire away with any questions you may have.

Do you follow with propionate only?
Were you able to resolve sleep? I've always been a night owl and I've also had sleep made worse by TRT but on cypionate, enanthate and sustanon. Until I watched an interview with Dr Rand Mcclain, saying that trt actually alters cortisol and that he recommended 400 to 800mg of phosphatidylserine at night to his patients. 400mg is a very good dose for me, worth the test. Theanine 200mg is also very good.
Also, when it takes me a long time to fall asleep, I alternate antihistamines: benadryl, dramamine, cyproheptadine... They work very well, as long as you don't use them daily.

 

[BillyJ03z]

It will be interesting see how you fare with 1:1 versus 4:1. I lose water weight as soon as I increase the prop percentage.

So I've been on the 50/50 Prop/Cyp mix for about 6 days and although it's way too early to report any substantive benefits I have noticed better strength, lessoning water retention, more muscle fullness and slightly more energy. but...... as of tomorrow I am changing my ratio to increase the prop and lessen the Cyp as I feel I don't need so much longer ester with ED injects... I am deciding between 63/33 ratio of Prop-Cyp @ 16mg = 12.5mg pure test...... or 75/25 ratio of Prop/Cyp @ 14mg = 11.1mg pure test....... I'm leaning towards 75/25 ratio...... thoughts?

 

[Willyt]

So I've been on the 50/50 Prop/Cyp mix for about 6 days and although it's way too early to report any substantive benefits I have noticed better strength, lessoning water retention, more muscle fullness and slightly more energy. but...... as of tomorrow I am changing my ratio to increase the prop and lessen the Cyp as I feel I don't need so much longer ester with ED injects... I am deciding between 63/33 ratio of Prop-Cyp @ 16mg = 12.5mg pure test...... or 75/25 ratio of Prop/Cyp @ 14mg = 11.1mg pure test....... I'm leaning towards 75/25 ratio...... thoughts?

You seem to respond well to Prop if I recall, but maybe ease back into it with 66/33 to avoid those late day Prop crashes

 

[SSHSSA74]

For what it's worth, today marks around 12 weeks of me using prop.

Yes, if you read my story on page 2 (post #36) of this thread, I have on occasion strayed from the usual daily regimen. But I would say 90%+ of the days in the first 10 weeks were 20mg prop daily subq (140mg week) in the AM. Past 2 weeks were 105mg (15mg daily). As of today, I have dropped to 10mg daily AM for the foreseeable future.

Things are still rock hard. Sleep is still shitty.

One last thing - on four days randomly (not recurring days) recently I have popped 5mg generic Valium (diazepam) out of sheer desperation. Sleep was good, but erections went soft the next 24 hours or so. Thereafter things go rock solid titanium again - along with the return of crappy sleep. Just going to keep dropping the prop dose as time goes on and see what happens.

I don't think I asked you this...your SHBG?

 

[SSHSSA74]

OK guys, this thread has got me excited, so I will be your guinea pig. I bought a vial of UGL 100mg/ml prop last night (sorry, that's the only prop I can get in my country).

Am currently doing perfectly fine on IM cyp in every way (and with pretty much any protocol) but my sleep is meh, wake up with a "hangover". This happens with doses >100mg and gets worse as dose increases, all the way to 500mg. Too much stimulation of the CNS during sleep is the cause. I do however want the larger doses especially for muscular, recovery and hypersexual purposes (all "nice to have" but not strictly "need to have" things).

My main reason then for doing this prop experiment is to get a high peak in the day (and I don't care if it is (actually preferably want) 2-3x supra), and hopefully drop quite low at night allowing me to sleep deeper. So in theory the prop solo could allow me the best of both worlds, at least to some extent.

I will be starting with 20mg daily subq AM, which is 140mg\week (0.2ml \ day). Have done shallow IM quads\delts with this same brand before and the PIP is significant even when blended 50% with cyp, hence I am going subq

Please allow me a few more days to wash out existing cyp in my system before starting (have already not injected 3 days). I will report back.

I will abandon this experiment should I develop any welts, painful lumps, systemic allergic reactions to prop subq, crippling pain etc.

Are you using Slin Pins?

 

[bixt]

Are you using Slin Pins?

Yep.

 

[SSHSSA74]

Yep.

Cool. Thanks. SHBG?

 

[bixt]

Cool. Thanks. SHBG?

No idea, don't care

 

[SSHSSA74]

No idea, don't care

ok.

 

[SSHSSA74]

@readalot

You mentioned a few times in some other threads about your experiance, you observed an inverse ratio for the relationship of T dose vs cognition.

I also notice the same thing, be it on a 500mg cyp blast or this 140mg prop experiment, worsening as time goes on.

I dont drink much. A few weeks ago, after having a few drinks and then going to sleep, my mental clarity was exceptional apon awakening the next morning even though I slept just 5.5 hours. (The alcohol gave me an exceptionally deep sleep subjectively with no awakenings).

That led me down the road to the discovery of the importance of good sleep vs cognition and mental clarity, regardless of the T dose used. If you force deep sleep (with some substance), cognition is still good.

It may not be the high T itself affecting cognition, but rather the poor sleep resulting from the high T that does this. Thats my working hypothesis at the moment.

Are you saying higher T, worse cognition or vice versa?

 

[BillyJ03z]

Are you saying higher T, worse cognition or vice versa?

IMHO, the cognition issues associated with TRT are due to sleep deprivation (lack of deep/REM) sleep. It affects all facets of life, ie.... cognition, cns, energy, etc... I agree with @readalot with what he has stated previously regarding T amounts.... I don't think it matters..... I tried extremely low, moderate, high doses and various esters and my sleep has sucked no matter what. My issues are falling asleep, staying asleep (wake up at 2 - 3am every night), and then continuing broken sleep waking up every 1-2 hours..... Stimulants no longer work as I think my CNS is depleted, which I think Pregnenolone is supposed to help with CNS repair....

 

[bixt]

Are you saying higher T, worse cognition or vice versa?

Yes, but not directly. See below.

IMHO, the cognition issues associated with TRT are due to sleep deprivation (lack of deep/REM) sleep. It affects all facets of life, ie.... cognition, cns, energy, etc..

 

[bixt]

IMHO, the cognition issues associated with TRT are due to sleep deprivation (lack of deep/REM) sleep. It affects all facets of life, ie.... cognition, cns, energy, etc... I agree with @readalot with what he has stated previously regarding T amounts.... I don't think it matters..... I tried extremely low, moderate, high doses and various esters and my sleep has sucked no matter what. My issues are falling asleep, staying asleep (wake up at 2 - 3am every night), and then continuing broken sleep waking up every 1-2 hours..... Stimulants no longer work as I think my CNS is depleted, which I think Pregnenolone is supposed to help with CNS repair....

1000% true for me too! Exactly word for word. Except perhaps with doses < 70mg , but then drive\motivation\ambition suffers. All doperminergic traits. Higher (TOT i.e. doses > 150mg) give this dopamine like boost in the day which is why people like them, but then this stimulated boost continues 24/7 affecting sleep.

I thought prop would fix this but no luck, not even straight prop IM or SubQ. I can’t get my hands on creams.

I tried extremely low, moderate, high doses and various esters and my sleep has sucked no matter what.

What about pre trt or with no trt?

Also out of curiosity, have you tried any sleep medication such as benzos/trazadone/seroquel/various antihistamines/ alcohol etc etc? If you have, what was your experience?

After testing all of the above here and there, I have come to realise what true deep sleep actually is. It turns out my sleep was always poor naturally and high doses / prop simply exacerbated this.

 

[bixt]

For what it's worth, today marks around 12 weeks of me using prop.

This was on 2 Jan, so it’s now been more than 20 weeks. I will be taking a break from this protocol for a while. Love the rock hard boners, hate my sleep going from bad to terrible.

I will now be doing something radically different, starting tomorrow morning. The Dr Rand McClain protocol (On my own, not through the doctor). 200mg week with lots of AI (1/4 tab or 0.25mg a day for a total of 1.75mg a week). Slightly lower AI than he does which is 2-3mg a week. The only variation is I will do daily injects as opposed to weekly, for now. There is a thread called “Ask Dr McClain” which I think has more info on this, as well as numerous YouTube videos by the good doctor. I will report back on this in a few months, or earlier if I abort it.

 

[Gman86]

For the guys having sleep issues, why are u focusing so much on how ur protocol effects ur sleep? No disrespect or anything. Obv our protocols can effect our sleep, but why are u guys focusing on how ur protocol effects ur sleep, and not the things that have a much greater impact on whether u sleep well or not?

I just don’t get why u guys aren’t willing to do what u need to do in order to sleep well, but then will complain that ur sleep sucks. If u guys are already doing what u need to be doing in order to optimize sleep, and then want to complain that ur sleep sucks, and focus entirely on adjusting ur protocol to improve sleep, I get that. Here’s some of the things that are absolute game changers when it comes to sleeping well, and if ur not implementing them all, ur doing urself a disservice as far as sleep goes. Wearing quality blue blocking glasses 3-4 hours prior to bed, using a fairly high dose of quality magnesium everyday, getting sunlight in ur eyes upon waking, or soon after, not eating anything at least 3-4 hours prior to bed, and hands down the most important, eating a diet full of healthy nutrient dense foods, while avoiding all, or most foods that are going to impact ur health in a negative way. Nothing will impact ur sleep more than ur diet. And obviously exercise and lowering overall stress will improve sleep.

Sleep is, and always will be the single most important thing when it comes to our overall health and well being. So I really do wish everybody with sleep issues all the best. I feel for u guys

 

[BillyJ03z]

For the guys having sleep issues, why are u focusing so much on how ur protocol effects ur sleep? No disrespect or anything. Obv our protocols can effect our sleep, but why are u guys focusing on how ur protocol effects ur sleep, and not the things that have a much greater impact on whether u sleep well or not?

I just don’t get why u guys aren’t willing to do what u need to do in order to sleep well, but then will complain that ur sleep sucks. If u guys are already doing what u need to be doing in order to optimize sleep, and then want to complain that ur sleep sucks, and focus entirely on adjusting ur protocol to improve sleep, I get that. Here’s some of the things that are absolute game changers when it comes to sleeping well, and if ur not implementing them all, ur doing urself a disservice as far as sleep goes. Wearing quality blue blocking glasses 3-4 hours prior to bed, using a fairly high dose of quality magnesium everyday, getting sunlight in ur eyes upon waking, or soon after, not eating anything at least 3-4 hours prior to bed, and hands down the most important, eating a diet full of healthy nutrient dense foods, while avoiding all, or most foods that are going to impact ur health in a negative way. Nothing will impact ur sleep more than ur diet. And obviously exercise and lowering overall stress will improve sleep.

Sleep is, and always will be the single most important thing when it comes to our overall health and well being. So I really do wish everybody with sleep issues all the best. I feel for u guys

No disrespect, but do you really think those suggestions you made are really game changers (the holy grail) for majority of us when it comes to sleep? I already eat healthy/nutritional foods, have a complete dark room with no sunlight getting in, I take magnesium, melatonan, ashwughanda (lower night cortisol), I'm in good shape, etc..... the only stress I have in my life is not getting sleep..... It still takes a little while to fall asleep (not as bad as it used to be to fall asleep), but when I do fall asleep, I can't stay asleep... It is broken, waking up multiple times a night. Something internal is not allowing me to continuously sleep and reach deep sleep... this all started shortly after starting TRT 10 plus years ago. I never had any problem with sleep/sleeping before starting TRT and I eat healthier now than I did in my younger years. Hell, before TRT, I could literally drink a cup a coffee and be on the computer with all kinds of light, noises, distractions going on and instantly fall asleep when I lay my head on my pillow and I would stay asleep.

So the reason why we are focusing on our trt protocols is because it is the common denominator we have all come to the conclusion that our TRT is the central issue for our sleep issues whether it be trt induced apnea, cns stimulation, cortisol spiking, sex hormones and other hormone issues (E2, prolactin, progesterone, pregnenelone), etc....