Maybe just try lower DHEA dose or alternate EOD to avoid stack effect. Seemed like you were doing well until levels presumably started to build up too much.
T Propionate protocol
- Thread starter goga
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DHEA upstream of T...
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and dehydroepiandrosterone-sulfate (DHEA-S), highlighted in orange, together are the most abundant steroids in human circulation. DHEA-S may be converted to DHEA by the action of steroid sulfatase (STS), generating more of this essential sex steroid precursor. These adrenal steroids are derived from cholesterol, which is converted to pregnenolone by cholesterol side-chain cleavage enzyme (CYP11A1). Pregnenolone is subsequently metabolized to 17α-OH-pregnenolone and DHEA by 17α-hydroxylase/17,20-lyase (CYP17A1) in a stepwise reaction. 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase isotype 1 (3βHSD1) is necessary for the rate-limiting step in the peripheral conversion of DHEA to androstenedione, a reaction that gates the flux of metabolites downstream into sex steroid synthesis pathways. Potent androgens, including testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, may be generated via the action of 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17βHSD) and 5α-reductase (SRD5A). In tissues expressing aromatase, testosterone may be further metabolized to estradiol, a potent estrogen, as shown in pink. While this figure highlights the key enzymatic steps required for the generation of sex steroids, it is important to note that conversion of pregnenolone and 17-OH-pregnenolone to progesterone metabolites primarily occurs in the adrenal gland via the action of 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase isotype 2 (3βHSD2). The minor physiologic role 3βHSD1 plays in these reactions is indicated by the decreased thickness of the arrows reflecting this enzymatic activity. Not shown is conversion from androstenedione by aromatase to estrone.
Through the Looking-Glass: Reevaluating DHEA Metabolism Through HSD3B1 Genetics
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and DHEA-sulfate together are abundant adrenal steroids whose physiologic effects are mediated through their conversion to potent downstream androgens. 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase isotype 1 (3βHSD1) facilitates ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Is your argument that serum levels of fT would push back on conversion of DHEA to andro and then T?
See here:
Dehydroepiandrosterone Replacement Administration: Pharmacokinetic and Pharmacodynamic Studies in Healthy Elderly Subjects*
Abstract. Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA; 50 and 25 mg) and placebo tablets were orally administered daily to 24 healthy aging men and women (67.8 ± 4.3 yr)
academic.oup.com
Note that DHEA to androstenedione conversion is irreversible.
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I agree, that's my plan. I'm waiting for the 10mg/day subQ of Prop to stabilize (I'm probably already steady state after 7 days but want to give it a bit more time), going to do labs in 1 week, and then I'll start playing with Preg/DHEA again.
Yeah, that's unfortunate. I don't understand why they wouldn't use the most accurate assay, and not testing SHBG makes no sense to me.
I have to look at my labs again, I didn't test SHBG at the time, but if TT stayed the same and Free T went up 15ng/dL, I can't think of another mechanism.
I'm going to try again after getting a baseline for 10mg/day Prop and see if I get a similar increase in Free T from the DHEA
It will be interesting to see your test results on 10mg. I was well above range (1200 TT) on only 8mg daily tested at peak (4 hours post injection)
I could see peak being high, but I tested mid-way (12 hours post injection on a ED protocol) when I was doing 15mg/day IM injections, and I was already down to 20ng/dL Free T, which seemed low for 12 hours post injection. Not sure what my trough was but I'd be surprised if it'd been over 15ng/dL, maybe closer to 10ng/dL.
I'm going to test both peak (4-5 hours post injection) and trough levels on this protocol, it'll be interesting to see the difference.
are you high shbg?
IM or subQ?
Sorry I missed this. Nothing crazy at 40ish
Good question - it was shallow IM, which as @readalot has repeatedly explained is going to yield higher peaks and lower troughs than subq.
It's amazing how much I can feel even an modest 1mg increase on daily straight prop, whether IM or subq. I am admittedly sensitive to T, but I've seen others echo the same observation about prop dosing. It's a different beast.
see above
Thanks for responding. I’d love to give it a shot but my SHBG is always low teens so I’m not sure how I would do.
The good news is that you will know pretty quickly how you are responding on daily straight Prop with low SHBG. The bad news is that you should probably let your existing T run its course before jumping on the Prop mustang.
Got it. Thanks.
Here's my report on my current 10mg/day AM subQ Test Prop protocol. About 3 weeks in now.
Lab results:
5 hours post injection, TT = 1000 ng/dL, FT = 17.5 ng/dL, E2 (sensitive) = 29 pg/mL.
24 hours post injections, TT = 600 ng/dL, FT = 9 ng/dL, E2 (sensitive) = 32 pg/mL.
The drop in TT is about 40% and the drop in FT almost 50%, well beyond natural variation even in a healthy 20yo male.
I'm also surprised E2 is that high with such low Free T, I don't like that ratio of T:E. I do remember that on 15mg/day IM Test Prop, my E2 climbed to 60pg/mL at trough despite reaching only 20ng/dL FT.
Subjectively, my experience reflects that of @bixt for the most part.
Libido is significantly higher than on Cyp but not as high as on 15mg/day IM Prop. I'm not sure whether it's due to dosage or/and administration route difference (IM vs subQ).
Erection quality through the roof, teenage levels. Very strong morning wood and even through the night, painfully hard and sustained erections during sex.
Sleep is horrible. I don't think I ever really reach deep sleep, at least I definitely don't feel that way. I do feel a crash in the afternoon that almost makes me want to take a nap.
Mentally I feel a lot clearer than on Cypionate or the cream. I didn't include that above but my DHEA-S levels came back at 150 mcg/dL (range 60-440), up from a consistent drop to 80mcg/dL after I started TRT.
That's a pretty big difference so it could indicate that Prop leads to less of a shutdown of neurosteroid production for me.
Definitely more energy/drive than on Cypionate, I'm not completely anhedonic and lethargic. I even have moments where some of my pre-TRT ambition and desire to do things comes back.
Much less water retention than on Cyp and the scrotal cream, but my FT levels are so much lower than on those other protocols it's hard to tell whether it's from that or the Prop's half-life.
I'm significantly weaker in the gym, which is not surprising seeing how low my FT levels are, but I also have more energy and aggression.
Overall it's a less intense version of my 15mg/day IM Prop experience in terms of mood, libido, aggression and gym performance, but I feel less wired for sure and more clear-minded.
Of note, I have been having a slight headache on a daily basis. Nothing crazy but it's noticeable because I've never suffered from them in my life. Not sure whether it's a temporary thing or perhaps some mechanism of constant vasoconstriction/dilation because of the quick and significant changes in hormone levels.
Lab results:
5 hours post injection, TT = 1000 ng/dL, FT = 17.5 ng/dL, E2 (sensitive) = 29 pg/mL.
24 hours post injections, TT = 600 ng/dL, FT = 9 ng/dL, E2 (sensitive) = 32 pg/mL.
The drop in TT is about 40% and the drop in FT almost 50%, well beyond natural variation even in a healthy 20yo male.
I'm also surprised E2 is that high with such low Free T, I don't like that ratio of T:E. I do remember that on 15mg/day IM Test Prop, my E2 climbed to 60pg/mL at trough despite reaching only 20ng/dL FT.
Subjectively, my experience reflects that of @bixt for the most part.
Libido is significantly higher than on Cyp but not as high as on 15mg/day IM Prop. I'm not sure whether it's due to dosage or/and administration route difference (IM vs subQ).
Erection quality through the roof, teenage levels. Very strong morning wood and even through the night, painfully hard and sustained erections during sex.
Sleep is horrible. I don't think I ever really reach deep sleep, at least I definitely don't feel that way. I do feel a crash in the afternoon that almost makes me want to take a nap.
Mentally I feel a lot clearer than on Cypionate or the cream. I didn't include that above but my DHEA-S levels came back at 150 mcg/dL (range 60-440), up from a consistent drop to 80mcg/dL after I started TRT.
That's a pretty big difference so it could indicate that Prop leads to less of a shutdown of neurosteroid production for me.
Definitely more energy/drive than on Cypionate, I'm not completely anhedonic and lethargic. I even have moments where some of my pre-TRT ambition and desire to do things comes back.
Much less water retention than on Cyp and the scrotal cream, but my FT levels are so much lower than on those other protocols it's hard to tell whether it's from that or the Prop's half-life.
I'm significantly weaker in the gym, which is not surprising seeing how low my FT levels are, but I also have more energy and aggression.
Overall it's a less intense version of my 15mg/day IM Prop experience in terms of mood, libido, aggression and gym performance, but I feel less wired for sure and more clear-minded.
Of note, I have been having a slight headache on a daily basis. Nothing crazy but it's noticeable because I've never suffered from them in my life. Not sure whether it's a temporary thing or perhaps some mechanism of constant vasoconstriction/dilation because of the quick and significant changes in hormone levels.
So I had a pretty similar experience with prop where my E2 was quite a bit higher than usual with the concurrent total and free T levels that I had. I didn’t feel the best on this prop protocol. From my understanding, estrogen takes longer to increase and decrease compared to test levels, so my test level was spiking high, creating these high E2 levels, and then my test levels would drop just as quickly, while leaving my E2 levels elevated to where they were when my test levels were spiking, since E2 takes longer to come down, leaving me with an unfavorable test to E2 ratio, at least for some parts of the week
8-28-19
Test propionate - 154mg/ week (22mg ED) (Labs drawn morning of normal injection, prior to injecting)
-On 1/4 grain WP thyroid ED in am for 1 month. Labs done 24 hours after last dose.
-No HCG
-No AI
Total - 1085 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 148.8 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 299.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 40 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 78
E2 NOT Sensitive - 71
E2 Free - 1.81 (0.2-1.5)
8-28-19
Test propionate - 154mg/ week (22mg ED) (Labs drawn morning of normal injection, prior to injecting)
-On 1/4 grain WP thyroid ED in am for 1 month. Labs done 24 hours after last dose.
-No HCG
-No AI
Total - 1085 (250-1100 ng/dL)
Free T - 148.8 (46.0-224.0)
Bio T - 299.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 40 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 78
E2 NOT Sensitive - 71
E2 Free - 1.81 (0.2-1.5)
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Funny how different we are...I wish I had the same experience with prop as Jerajera and bixt had. All prop did for me was remove the benefits I felt from every other form of TRT I've tried and in addition, made me really tired.
I did sleep better on prop though. Total opposite experience.
I did sleep better on prop though. Total opposite experience.
Daily and subq.
Same. For comparison, on 100mg/week in E3.5D injections my trough Free T was 25ng/dL with trough E2 (sensitive) at 22pg/mL. Massively more skewed in favor in of Androgens than 9ng/dL and E2 32pg/mL.
FT:E2 ratio for that Cyp protocol was (ignoring the units) 1.14, while FT:E2 ratio for my current protocol is 0.28. That's 4 times the FT:E2 ratio in favor of the Cyp protocol.
That's my theory as well.
Was this subQ?
It looks like we have a fairly similar profile. My SHBG is also around 40nmol/L now (80 pre-TRT).
Have you tried lower doses of Prop? IM instead of subQ or the other way around? Same experience?
Great post. Appreciate the peak-through test results. This is why the Prop-Enanthate blend makes sense, at least on paper
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