T Propionate protocol

[Willyt]

Have you tried injecting Test P at night? Were you doing IM or subQ?

I have done both IM and Subq on Prop and found your theory to hold true on subq slowing down the prop train. The downside is that your overnight trough may not go as low on subq as IM. @readalot has talked about subq having lower peaks with higher troughs (i.e., less fluctuation)

Injecting at night would likely make your sleep worse.

 

[bixt]

Man I love me some TOT...

Yes, I will shamelessly admit my motives here are strictly TOT and not TRT.

I bet you would do well on @Cataceous 4:3 Enan to Prop blend at around 10-12 mg per day

Didn't mention this in my post: Around 7-8 of the daily injects were blends of 50:50 prop to cyp (by mg). There was a 4 in a day row of them, and the others random. Immediately resulted in a softer EQ (as was always the case with cyp). Soft meaning perfectly usable, just not these rock hard steel ones I get from straight prop. Also, there were a couple days of 10mg prop solo (the same amount of prop as in the blend) and I still had the rock-hard EQ. So something to do with the cyp itself is therefore giving me softies (not that soft but relatively comparing). I have no scientific hypothesis to back this up, same as there isn't one for prop being a "dry" compound for BBs.

More than 1.5 years ago I did a month of the 4:3 blend at 120mg / week after reading about it here. I think I should change my username to "testalot". I recall it being no different to a similar dose of straight cyp as far as libido or energy or EQ went and so forgot about it.

but you'll you won't walking around like a zombie all day on those sleep meds.

On the contrary, I wake up fantastic and fresh on tiny doses of diazepam, 4 shots equivalent of hard alcohol or Mk-677. Its the anti-histamines that kept me groggy and I am informed zopiclone as well does this to many.

On top of that my mood was incredible, I felt hyper confident and was smiling all day long. Libido and erection quality were also ridiculous, best of any protocol I've tried by far.

1000% concur as well.

I was doing shallow IM injections in the AM

Been there, done that, crippled those limbs after (IM prop). Repeatedly. As "hankthetank" said to me over at T-Nation, I don't learn from my mistakes. You will see lots of my old posts criticizing Subq, I am doing them here (with prop) out of a lack of other options.

Have you thought about injecting at night instead?

Tried these also in this experiment. I do recall my gym performance and endurance suffering greatly. Due to me training in the late evening (at the trough of the prop). I was injecting right before bed. I can't compromise on this.

Also Pregnenolone and/or DHEA seems to help some people with sleep, presumably perhaps through a downstream increase in Progesterone levels. Might be worth a try.

Done both together and solo, during the early parts of this experiment and also before with cyp. I may as well have been taking sugar pills.

Important: I have been using HCG (Puretrig India pharma) at around 400IU every 3-4-5 days before and during this experiment. Your mention of downstream hormones made me recall this fact. The stuff bloats me up for the day of injection for the day, bloat, water retention, laziness, "high E2" symptoms people will say).

EDIT: By the way, did you get any lab work done on this protocol?

Probably to the great disappointment of many, I will put my head down in shame and admit to having been playing with hormones for years and never had a single blood test done. Ever. I'm not joking. I could blame the lack of anonymous testing where I am based, or the availability of only "piss poor" tests. But it's actually my fear of the big needle that has countlessly stopped me. (for example, I fainted when I saw the epidural needle the anaesthetist was about to use on my wife when giving birth).

Perhaps one day when I find the perfect protocol in every way I will fly somewhere far to do the requisite bloods so that I have a "snapshot" of that perfect moment.

 

[Willyt]

Didn't mention this in my post: Around 7-8 of the daily injects were blends of 50:50 prop to cyp (by mg). There was a 4 in a day row of them, and the others random. Immediately resulted in a softer EQ (as was always the case with cyp).

Could be an E2 hangover coming down from that Mt Everest peak. Prop obviously agrees with you more.

Doesn't your mind race with that much Prop? I always felt like I was bouncing off the walls even at 8-10 mg per day.

Perhaps one day when I find the perfect protocol in every way I will fly somewhere far to do the requisite bloods so that I have a "snapshot" of that perfect moment.

You may not want to see those results (wink).

Great post though. The best part of this forum is when guys report back on their experiments. It's how we all learn.

 

[Jerajera]

Injecting at night would likely make your sleep worse

I'm not sure that's possible...but joking aside you could be right. I'll give it a shot and report back.

You will see lots of my old posts criticizing Subq, I am doing them here (with prop) out of a lack of other options

Good news is that you're still getting all the benefits re: energy, gym, libido, etc...on subQ. Hopefully that'll hold true for me as well. IM was too much of a wild ride, I'm hoping subQ will be a more sustainable version of that while retaining most of the benefits of IM.

I do recall my gym performance and endurance suffering greatly. Due to me training in the late evening (at the trough of the prop). I was injecting right before bed. I can't compromise on this

Was that on subQ? I can't imagine being able to sleep doing IM injections before bed, but I was hoping subQ's slower release might work. I'll give it a shot. It could work for me since I tend to work out around lunch time and have always struggled to get up in the morning without feeling as if I was dragging myself through hell.

Done both together and solo, during the early parts of this experiment and also before with cyp. I may as well have been taking sugar pills

Interesting. Both Preg and DHEA had a very strong impact on me. Preg shot my libido higher than when I was a teenager, and it was really high back then even by teenager standards. It was ridiculous, and unlikely to be placebo since I didn't expect it at all.

After I started TRT my DHEA-S dropped from 200 to 80 (repeated over several blood tests), so for me at least exogenous Test seems to immediately lead to a severe deficiency in neurosteroid production. I wonder if part of the reason I feel better on shorter esters is that they lead to a lesser degree of HPTA shutdown, and unfortunately I have to wonder whether subQ's slower release will lessen that advantage to some degree

 

[S1W]

As promised, I am reporting back a summary of my experiment. Objective was deeper sleep. Dose is 20mg daily AM subq into upper bum fat pad.

Sleep (main objective): Total failure. Sleep is WORSE than cypionate. Completely decimated. Like using Tren. No issue getting to sleep but waking up 2am and then having this in-between sleep wakeful state (lets call it stage 1/2 sleep). Feels like a total lack of deep stage 3-4 sleep. Will discuss further in the concluding paragraph.

Libido: Was never my objective (libido was ok on cyp). So I was shocked to see my libido go up to 11. Rock hard diamond titanium erections, anytime all the time. Everything looks hot. Sometimes problematically and inappropriately so.

Gym performance (weights): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "feels like" 500mg cyp. Am making many PRs.

Gains \ muscle fullness (looks wise): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "looks like" 500mg cyp or even better. Strange.

Cardio ability (especially jogging): Excellent. Again, better than cyp of 70-200mg. Could be due to below point on water retention.

Water retention: Now I understand what people mean when they say prop is "dry". Ankle water us gone. I can jog properly again without pain! Yet scale weight is up, so I have an increase in lean mass.

Laziness, lethargy, drive and aggression: Less lazy than cyp and more aggression and drive.

Conclusion and way forward:

In light of the multitude of benefits, I am continuing with the prop forever. Yet the sleep issue is devastating. So therefore my focus is now on resolving the sleep issues caused by it. Have played with low dose diazepam (1/4 or 1/2 of a 5mg tablet), a few drinks in the evening, MK677, various antihistamines in high dose, melatonin etc etc etc. All the usual bodybuilder "trensomnia" remedies (even though this is not tren) All work to some extent. Please, no doomsday comments on the diazepam. It was a temporary trial which is over.

Will lower prop dose to 15mg daily (105mg / week) and then 10mg daily and also spend more time with MK-677 which is the safest of all of the above options. If I can get deep sleep with a lower dose of prop without needing to resort to any sleeping aids, I am willing to compromise to some extent on the benefits of the prop. Will eventually report back on that outcome, going to need a while to get the perfect balance.

Please fire away with any questions you may have.

Excellent post. Thank you for sharing.

How long after switching to prop did it take for you to notice these effects/improvements?

 

[bixt]

How long after switching to prop did it take for you to notice these effects/improvements?

I had taken a break from the cyp for around 10 days or so, and the prop erections and libido were immediate the very day of the first prop injection. Neither did things improve further as I went along (nor was there room to!). i.e. no "dial in flux period" Sleep did progressively get worse though.

Another thing , on two or three random days I forgot to inject as I do in the AM. EQ was still fine those mornings, 24 hours post inject (yep, I am that hardcore in testing. I went to the bathroom to test EQ after remembering). But by the evening (+- 36 hours post last injection, soft again). Fixed within a few hours of the next injection.

 

[bixt]

@readalot

You mentioned a few times in some other threads about your experiance, you observed an inverse ratio for the relationship of T dose vs cognition.

I also notice the same thing, be it on a 500mg cyp blast or this 140mg prop experiment, worsening as time goes on.

I dont drink much. A few weeks ago, after having a few drinks and then going to sleep, my mental clarity was exceptional apon awakening the next morning even though I slept just 5.5 hours. (The alcohol gave me an exceptionally deep sleep subjectively with no awakenings).

That led me down the road to the discovery of the importance of good sleep vs cognition and mental clarity, regardless of the T dose used. If you force deep sleep (with some substance), cognition is still good.

It may not be the high T itself affecting cognition, but rather the poor sleep resulting from the high T that does this. Thats my working hypothesis at the moment.

 

[tareload]

@readalot

You mentioned a few times in some other threads about your experiance, you observed an inverse ratio for the relationship of T dose vs cognition.

I also notice the same thing, be it on a 500mg cyp blast or this 140mg prop experiment, worsening as time goes on.

I dont drink much. A few weeks ago, after having a few drinks and then going to sleep, my mental clarity was exceptional apon awakening the next morning even though I slept just 5.5 hours. (The alcohol gave me an exceptionally deep sleep subjectively with no awakenings).

That led me down the road to the discovery of the importance of good sleep vs cognition and mental clarity, regardless of the T dose used. If you force deep sleep (with some substance), cognition is still good.

It may not be the high T itself affecting cognition, but rather the poor sleep resulting from the high T that does this. Thats my working hypothesis at the moment.

Excellent observation and thank you for sharing the data point. I am sure for those prone to heart arrhythmia / Post COVID complications the sleep issue with increasing T dose becomes critical as well. Thank you.

I will put together a plot of sleep quality vs T dose after I hit the wall again. Right now at 120 mg/week and slowly climbing. I like how the escitalopram controls my HR elevations during vivid dreams/nightmares and helps me get back to sleep quicker. So far it appears to be a supra T assist compound.

Data points so far at 80, 100, 120 mg/week.

BTW, for those who enjoy this sort of work:

Merry F'n Christmas.

Autopsy-based histopathological characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination - Clinical Research in Cardiology

Cases of myocarditis, diagnosed clinically by laboratory tests and imaging have been described in the context of mRNA-based anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Autopsy-based description of detailed histological features of vaccine-induced myocarditis is lacking. We describe the autopsy findings and...

link.springer.com

Through our autopsy-based approach, we identified five cases of lymphocytic (epi-)myocarditis in persons, who were unexpectedly found dead at home within the first week following mRNA-mediated anti-SARS-CoV-2 immunization. According to the Dallas criteria four samples were classified as definitive myocarditis. In the remaining case, comparable inflammatory infiltration of the epicardium, subepicardial fat and myocardium was found, but myocardial infiltration did not exceed the threshold of the Dallas criteria. All cases showed a consistent phenotype: (A) focal interstitial lymphocytic myocardial infiltration, in three cases accompanied by demonstrable microfocal myocyte destruction. (B) T-cell dominant infiltrate with CD4 positive T-cells outnumbering CD8 positive T-cells by far; (C) frequently associated with T-cell infiltration of epicardium and subepicardial fat tissue revealing a similar immune phenotype (CD4 >  > CD8).

As well-known from myocardial infarction, it has to be considered that microscopically visible manifestation of myocardial damage under such acute conditions may lag behind function; this may relate to aspects of infiltrate composition, such as the relatively low macrophage content, or the histologically focal myocyte damage. Thus, functional effects may be much stronger than expected considering the histological picture. This is reflected by the fact that myocarditis is a major cause of sudden and unexpected death in infants, adolescents, and young adults with frequencies ranging from 1 to 14% among the young [18,19,20,21]. As outlined in the materials and methods section, evaluation of the likelihood of an AEFI reflects the temporal association and the autopsy findings (with exclusion of other reasons of sudden death), and negative molecular testing for potential infectious causes. Thus, case 5 with HHV6-DNA detected at low copy numbers was classified as possible. In general, a causal link between myocarditis and anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination is supported by several considerations: (A) a close temporal relation to vaccination; all cases were found dead within one week after vaccination, (B) absence of any other significant pre-existing heart disease, especially ischaemic heart disease or cardiomyopathy, (C) negative testing for potential myocarditis-causing infectious agents, (D) presence of a peculiar CD4 predominant T-cell infiltrate, suggesting an immune mediated mechanism. The latter criterion is supported by demonstration of a phenotypically identical T-cell infiltrate at the deltoidal injection site in one of the cases. It has to be emphasized, that a comparable (epi-)myocardial infiltration was neither found in any of the other 20 autopsies performed on bodies found dead within 20 days following an anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination nor in the age- and sex-matched cohorts from three independent periods from our autopsy-files.

Based on the autopsy findings and all available data, no other cause of death except (epi-)myocarditis was identified in any of the cases presented here. Hence, myocarditis has to be considered the likely cause of death. From a functional point of view, myocardial damage in our cases is not sufficient to postulate contractile failure as terminal cause of death; thus, arrhythmic failure, either by cardiac arrest or by ventricular fibrillation, has to be assumed as the mechanism leading to the patients’ death. Myocarditis-related acute cardiac arrest due to either asystoly or ventricular fibrillation is a well-established pathomechanism in other causes of acute myocarditis as well [22, 23].

 

[equel]

I'm not sure that's possible...but joking aside you could be right. I'll give it a shot and report back.



Good news is that you're still getting all the benefits re: energy, gym, libido, etc...on subQ. Hopefully that'll hold true for me as well. IM was too much of a wild ride, I'm hoping subQ will be a more sustainable version of that while retaining most of the benefits of IM.



Was that on subQ? I can't imagine being able to sleep doing IM injections before bed, but I was hoping subQ's slower release might work. I'll give it a shot. It could work for me since I tend to work out around lunch time and have always struggled to get up in the morning without feeling as if I was dragging myself through hell.



Interesting. Both Preg and DHEA had a very strong impact on me. Preg shot my libido higher than when I was a teenager, and it was really high back then even by teenager standards. It was ridiculous, and unlikely to be placebo since I didn't expect it at all.

After I started TRT my DHEA-S dropped from 200 to 80 (repeated over several blood tests), so for me at least exogenous Test seems to immediately lead to a severe deficiency in neurosteroid production. I wonder if part of the reason I feel better on shorter esters is that they lead to a lesser degree of HPTA shutdown, and unfortunately I have to wonder whether subQ's slower release will lessen that advantage to some degree

How much preg did u use for ur libido boost?

 

[Jerajera]

How much preg did u use for ur libido boost?

10mg/day, but it was pharma compounded (Empower) micronized sustained release, which might be a lot stronger than most of the stuff you can buy over the counter.

Sustained release might also lead to stronger effects.

For what it's worth, 10mg/day of DHEA (same, compounded micronized SR) bumped my Free T from 25ng/dL to 40ng/dL without changing anything else to my protocol.

Initially gave me an amazing boost in focus/drive/productivity, but then turned me into a hyper-irritable asshole. Somehow kept my E2 at 40pg/mL even with the significant bump in Free T.

I'm going to revisit both Preg and DHEA after a few more weeks of this Prop protocol. I think they're definitely a big piece of the puzzle for me, given how TRT has crashed my neurosteroid production.

 

[SSHSSA74]

I did Prop IM at 15mg/day. My mood was the best ever on TRT, I lost water weight quickly and my libido and erection were ridiculous, but unfortunately I was too wired on it, I think it just peaked way too fast for me.

At some point I'm still thinking of trying subQ Prop, maybe the slower absorbtion rate will smooth out the gap between peak and trough levels.

@Cataceous, @readalot, does that reasoning make sense in your opinion? Could subQ Prop shorten the gap between peaks and troughs relative to IM Pr

This isn't surprising, most people seem to do much better on IM than SubQ in general.
My libido and erection quality on 15mg/day IM Prop were the best of any protocol I've tried, the cream came close.



That's much sooner post-injection than I would've guessed. I'll try testing 3 and 6 hours post-injection as well as 24 hours. The good thing about Prop is that steady state should be attained very quickly

What is your SHBG?

 

[Jerajera]

What is your SHBG?

Was 80nmol/L pre-TRT. Dropped to around 40 a couple of months into TRT and has stayed pretty much there the whole time I've been on (~2.5 years)

 

[SSHSSA74]

Was 80nmol/L pre-TRT. Dropped to around 40 a couple of months into TRT and has stayed pretty much there the whole time I've been on (~2.5 years)

ok. I think mine has been measured with different types of metrics than you. thanks.

 

[equel]

10mg/day, but it was pharma compounded (Empower) micronized sustained release, which might be a lot stronger than most of the stuff you can buy over the counter.

Sustained release might also lead to stronger effects.

For what it's worth, 10mg/day of DHEA (same, compounded micronized SR) bumped my Free T from 25ng/dL to 40ng/dL without changing anything else to my protocol.

Initially gave me an amazing boost in focus/drive/productivity, but then turned me into a hyper-irritable asshole. Somehow kept my E2 at 40pg/mL even with the significant bump in Free T.

I'm going to revisit both Preg and DHEA after a few more weeks of this Prop protocol. I think they're definitely a big piece of the puzzle for me, given how TRT has crashed my neurosteroid production.

Hold on, are u telling me DHEA boosted free T even on TRT? how the heck does that work, any idea?

 

[bixt]

So far it appears to be a supra T assist compound.

Go thru this entire thread and you will be able to make a long list of such compounds. Any substance which is of use to BBs blasting grams of tren is surely usable (or at least short term testable) by us, at much lower and safer doses.

What's the best prescribed sleeping aid for bodybuilders from your experience?

I've been having sleeping problems for well over 2 years now and lately it has gotten real bad to the point where some days I couldn't even function properly at work because of either no sleep or 1 hour of sleep. I've started visiting my doctor lately and she has no problem prescribing me...

www.professionalmuscle.com

 

[bixt]

Here's another data point for you: MK677 - not mentioned too much except in passing in the above linked thread. But my cousin is blasting a lot of things as well as using 20mg of UGL MK daily. He is using it for the "side effect" grelin receptor agonist properties (i.e. insane hunger to bulk). But coincidently he says he sleeps like a baby.

From Wikipedia:

"Effect on sleep architecture"​

"In a small study of 14 subjects, MK-677 dosed at 25mg/day at bedtime was shown to increase REM sleep by 20% and 50% in young and older subjects respectively.[16] Treatment with MK-677 also resulted in an approximate 50% increase in stage IV sleep in young subjects"



My comment and comparison to benzos: On paper this appears to be better than even benzos! Benzos increase stage 1 and 2, they increase the time spent (latency) to REM as well. They do not do much for deep sleep (stage 3 & 4) as far as duration goes. Also the amplitude (height in a chart) of the slow waves are lower, per EEG.

Now MK-677 increases deep steep (stage 4) for 50% and looks like a winner on paper.

Get some. It seems to have been forgotten in light of the price being 3/4 to that of actual GH in North America (from what I read on PM). So most people don't bother and use actual GH. In my part of the world, a packet of 50 tabs of 10mg MK is roughly 1/10th the price of 100IUs of dubious quality GH.

 

[SSHSSA74]

I have had a short term experience with T Prop and felt much stronger libido with IM. SubQ was much less effective

do you have high shbg?

 

[tareload]

Go thru this entire thread and you will be able to make a long list of such compounds. Any substance which is of use to BBs blasting grams of tren is surely usable (or at least short term testable) by us, at much lower and safer doses.

What's the best prescribed sleeping aid for bodybuilders from your experience?

I've been having sleeping problems for well over 2 years now and lately it has gotten real bad to the point where some days I couldn't even function properly at work because of either no sleep or 1 hour of sleep. I've started visiting my doctor lately and she has no problem prescribing me...

www.professionalmuscle.com

You know me...I will go through the whole thread. Thank you.

 

[Jerajera]

Hold on, are u telling me DHEA boosted free T even on TRT? how the heck does that work, any idea?

No idea. It could've acted by lowering my SHBG I didn't test it at that time. But I know I didn't change anything else to my protocol and used the same Equilibrium Dialysis assay. Same trough at the same time of day, etc...so I can't imagine it would be something else; a jump from 25ng/dL to 40ng/dL is not natural variance on a TRT protocol.

I'm going to reintroduce it soon, I'll make sure to test SHBG this time out of curiosity. I would test absolutely every health marker and hormone possible every time I do labs, but that gets really expensive really quick.

The main advantage of DHEA for me, and that might've just been from the increased Free T to E2 ratio, was drive/motivation, sleep quality and min clarity. Also energy in the gym. Basically all I ever wanted from TRT but never got for more than a few days at a time before feeling "meh..." again at best.

Eventually though I started getting really bloated and irritable even though my E2 didn't budge

 

[tareload]

Effect of acute DHEA administration on free testosterone in middle-aged and young men following high-intensity interval training - European Journal of Applied Physiology

With advancing age, plasma testosterone levels decline, with free testosterone levels declining more significantly than total testosterone. This fall is thought to underlie the development of physical and mental weakness that occurs with advancing age. In addition, vigorous exercise can also...

link.springer.com

Unfortunately free T was measured using an EIA and SHBG was not measured. But sizeable increase with direct testing.