Progesterone Dose for Men

[Gman86]

I just woke up from another incredible nights sleep. It just blows my mind I am sleeping this well. Progesterone was absolutely the missing peice of the puzzle for me as far as sleep is concerned. TRT must have bottomed out my Progesterone. The sleep is so restful on 1 full pump of progesterone cream to the scrotum.

Thanks for another update. So what’s half a pump, 10mg? As far as a I know, most of a males progesterone is made from his testicles, and obv exogenous testosterone shuts the testis down, which consequently will leave pretty much every guy with very little progesterone being made, and progesterone has a host of benefits, for males and females. So makes total sense that having such low levels would cause issues. It’s also very beneficial for helping to build lean muscle tissue, which is always a plus. It greatly increases protein synthesis. And if it improves sleep, it obv improves recovery as well. Very interesting hormone that doesn’t get a lot of attention. Or if it does, it tends to be negative attention, when it comes to males

I know it’s only been a couple day’s since lowering ur dose, but do u think u like how u feel on half a pump better, or a full pump?

 

[Zibernet]

So ur almost taking a 1/4 tab of anastrozole daily?

How do u know that the 20mg of prog cream was giving u high E2 symptoms?

Prog seems to inhibit E2, u sure that u weren’t experiencing low E2 symptoms from the 20mg of prog cream?

Progesterone expels e2 from tissues, which can momentarily cause an e2 surge in the bloodstream as it is being carried out.

 

[Cataceous]

Progesterone expels e2 from tissues, ....

Can you cite any references for this? How does this work if progesterone does not interact with the estrogen receptors? Progesterone certainly influences the action of estradiol, but in this example, and perhaps more generally, it appears to be indirectly through the progesterone receptor.

 

[Zibernet]

Can you cite any references for this? How does this work if progesterone does not interact with the estrogen receptors? Progesterone certainly influences the action of estradiol, but in this example, and perhaps more generally, it appears to be indirectly through the progesterone receptor.

Google "Ray Peat Progesterone".
He's been working on this hormone for over 40 years, you'll find all his work on his website.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I did two pumps (40mg) to the scrotum last night. Slept fantastic and feel wonderful this morning.

 

[Gman86]

I did two pumps (40mg) to the scrotum last night. Slept fantastic and feel wonderful this morning.

So u cut ur dose in half for a few days, and then last night u decided to double it? Lol. Nothing wrong with that obv, jc what ur rationale for doing so was. Just wanted to see what would happen? Did u see some positive effects go away when cutting ur dose in half?

 

[DixieWrecked]

So u cut ur dose in half for a few days, and then last night u decided to double it? Lol. Nothing wrong with that obv, jc what ur rationale for doing so was. Just wanted to see what would happen? Did u see some positive effects go away when cutting ur dose in half?

My rational was that I feel freaking great and let's see if it feels even better. I can't say I feel much better, about the same. Maybe a little more rested. I just feel normal. Like I wouldn't know I was on TRT except for the fact that I feel great. Before prog I just had all these problems, sleep, anxiety, brain fog, libido. They have all improved substantially. Including water retention. I am clearly much leaner since take the progesterone. Even my BF scale confirms. My experience has led me to the idea that the issue for many is not that they need an AI but that they need progesterone. BUT it's only been a week. All I know is this is the best I have ever felt on TRT. I'm hoping that I have figured it out.

 

[Gman86]

My rational was that I feel freaking great and let's see if it feels even better. I can't say I feel much better, about the same. Maybe a little more rested. I just feel normal. Like I wouldn't know I was on TRT except for the fact that I feel great. Before prog I just had all these problems, sleep, anxiety, brain fog, libido. They have all improved substantially. Including water retention. I am clearly much leaner since take the progesterone. Even my BF scale confirms. My experience has led me to the idea that the issue for many is not that they need an AI but that they need progesterone. BUT it's only been a week. All I know is this is the best I have ever felt on TRT. I'm hoping that I have figured it out.

Man, this is some really exciting stuff! It totally makes sense tho. Years ago E2 and progesterone were thought of as “female hormones”, and that we should keep them both relatively low, and keep the “male hormone” testosterone high. But over the years we’ve slowly realized that E2 has amazing benefits in the male body, and is possibly responsible for most of the positive benefits that come from TRT. For some reason progesterone has still been thought of as a hormone that doesn’t need to be optimized, and we’re better off keeping it on the low end. But we have these hormones in the male body for a reason, and it would only make sense that they should all be balanced, not just select hormones, and not others. So in hindsight it seems like common sense that guys on TRT shouldn’t just leave their progesterone levels at the bottom of the range. But what I’m finding extremely interesting is how progesterone seems like the ultimate balancer, which I can definitely see being the missing key for a lot of men. Obv ur just one person’s experience, and what I’m saying is mostly theoretical, but it would totally make sense if progesterone ends up being a key component in a lot of men’s journey to getting optimized. Again, this is theoretical, but prog might be a key factor in why some men get high E2 and high DHT symptoms, and why some don’t. And why some men need an ai to feel optimal, regardless of their test dose, and some don’t. Nobody’s factoring in all their prog levels, which as far as I know can balance out E2 and DHT, and prolactin as well if I’m not mistaken. Like u said, u haven’t been on prog long, and it’s only come to the forefront recently, but everything about it, and guys’ anecdotes recently are extremely intriguing, imo. Excited to see if this ends up being a missing key for a lot of guys or not. Thanks again for the update, u’ve been extremely helpful in regards to all this topical scrotal prog talk

Im still continuing my scrotal prog experiment as well. Switched to 12.5mg before bed 2 days ago, kind of based on the fact that u were saying that 20mg might of mellowed u out too much. But now u got me thinking I should switch back to 25mg before bed. I might just do that. Either way I’m keeping a log of things and eventually will get prog checked to see where my levels are, and I log any subjective things I’ve noticed. So far I can’t say I have much to report. I think it’s helping very subtly in the way I’m thinking and talking to people, in a positive way, but other than that I don’t think I’ve noticed much. Definitely no negatives tho.

 

[DixieWrecked]

That's awesome you are giving it a go. I think now that I've got my feet wet I'm gonna go with the two pumps. If I start having side effects of some kind then I will back off. I think it really hit me about day four. First day sleep was good. 2nd day it was ok. Third day was ok. And from then on it was great. For reference, when I say my sleep was ok, that was still a huge improvement because my sleep was shit before prog. Please keep us posted on how it all unfolds for you.

Another key piece of data is that I have tried pregnenolone extensively and I like how it feels but it messed up my sleep even worse so it ended up being worse for me after a few days in a row. There is a big difference in feeling between the two in my experience.

 

[SSHSSA74]

I did two pumps (40mg) to the scrotum last night. Slept fantastic and feel wonderful this morning.

What brand do you use?

 

[Gman86]

That's awesome you are giving it a go. I think now that I've got my feet wet I'm gonna go with the two pumps. If I start having side effects of some kind then I will back off. I think it really hit me about day four. First day sleep was good. 2nd day it was ok. Third day was ok. And from then on it was great. For reference, when I say my sleep was ok, that was still a huge improvement because my sleep was shit before prog. Please keep us posted on how it all unfolds for you.

Another key piece of data is that I have tried pregnenolone extensively and I like how it feels but it messed up my sleep even worse so it ended up being worse for me after a few days in a row. There is a big difference in feeling between the two in my experience.

Ya I’ve tried preg a few times before and I felt like it was making my brain fog worse and I think it effected my sleep, IIRC. I have some topical preg that I ordered the same time as I ordered the topical prog, and plan on expirementing with it at some point. I feel like preg is tricky because it can convert into so many things, and people really have no clue what it’s gonna convert into. It seems like it’s a big guessing game and might be different for different people. Plus, I have naturally high DHEA-S levels, so idk if it would be good for me to take preg if it’s gonna further increase my DHEA-S levels. But anyways, so far so good with the prog. I think I’m gonna go back to 25mg each night starting tonight

 

[Cataceous]

Google "Ray Peat Progesterone".
He's been working on this hormone for over 40 years, you'll find all his work on his website.

You made the statement, so the burden of proof is with you. And I'm looking for peer-reviewed, scientific research, not Ray Peat's opinion. How many around here would find credible his demonization of estrogen? How much of this is the result of the immunoassay-based test measuring C-reactive protein instead of estradiol?

 

[mhinesii]

So ur almost taking a 1/4 tab of anastrozole daily?

How do u know that the 20mg of prog cream was giving u high E2 symptoms?

Prog seems to inhibit E2, u sure that u weren’t experiencing low E2 symptoms from the 20mg of prog cream?

Closer to 1/5 tab daily, I dissolve the 1 mg anastrazole tab in 2ml vodka and take .42ml (.21 mg) daily.

I checked E2 levels after 3 weeks of daily full pump prog (~20mg) and was 128 pg/ml. The prog was the only thing I changed in my protocol. After reducing to 1/4 pump (~5 mg) EOD E2 dropped to 58 pg/ml

 

[Gman86]

Closer to 1/5 tab daily, I dissolve the 1 mg anastrazole tab in 2ml vodka and take .42ml (.21 mg) daily.

I checked E2 levels after 3 weeks of daily full pump prog (~20mg) and was 128 pg/ml. The prog was the only thing I changed in my protocol. After reducing to 1/4 pump (~5 mg) EOD E2 dropped to 58 pg/ml

What’s ur e2 without any prog, is it lower than 58?

So ur E2 was 128, and then 58 all while taking around 1.4mg of anastrozole per week? What’s ur total protocol? U must be on a very high dose of test to have an E2 of 58 while on 1.4mg of ai per week, let alone an E2 of 128. That seems impossible. Unless prog is the most E2 increasing hormone out there, which goes against everything the literature tells us. The literature tells us prog inhibits E2, not raises it

what’s the range on ur E2 lab? My recent labcorp sensitive E2 lab also was measure in pg/ml, and the range was (8.0-35.0pg/ml)

 

[mhinesii]

What’s ur e2 without any prog, is it lower than 58?

So ur E2 was 128, and then 58 all while taking around 1.4mg of anastrozole per week? What’s ur total protocol? U must be on a very high dose of test to have an E2 of 58 while on 1.4mg of ai per week, let alone an E2 of 128. That seems impossible. Unless prog is the most E2 increasing hormone out there, which goes against everything the literature tells us. The literature tells us prog inhibits E2, not raises it

what’s the range on ur E2 lab? My recent labcorp sensitive E2 lab also was measure in pg/ml, and the range was (8.0-35.0pg/ml)

My E2 was 41 pg/ml Labcorp sensitive (same range as you) before trying Prog. E2 level after 3 weeks of ~20 mg Prog cream daily was 128 pg/ml. Experienced increased moodiness and softer erections. The only change in my TRT protocol during this period was adding the Prog.

I have always been on the high side with E2. Been on TRT for 8 years, 65 yr old, 6' 1", 220lb, total Test 550 ng/ml, E2 LC/MS Labcorp 58 pg/ml currently with ~5 mg prog EOD. Haven't checked prog blood levels. Have been a type II diabetic for 26 years which is probably why my E2 is always high. Also have BPH for over 10 yrs. I take 62mg Test cypionate SQ twice weekly, .21 mg anastrazole daily, 12.5 mg DHEA daily, ~5 mg Prog cream scrotal EOD, NO HCG. DHEA likely increases E2 as well, but I feel better with a little DHEA on board.

Prog is an aromatase inhibitor, but it is not a strong one like anastrazole, etc.
Adding Prog can increase test and increased test eventually is converted to E2 and/or DHT.

May seem impossible, but it is not. There is often significant variation between individuals which is readily apparent in reading this forum. Also, the literature is not always correct and Nobel prizes have been given to research that ultimately has been proven wrong.

 

[Gman86]

My E2 was 41 pg/ml Labcorp sensitive (same range as you) before trying Prog. E2 level after 3 weeks of ~20 mg Prog cream daily was 128 pg/ml. Experienced increased moodiness and softer erections. The only change in my TRT protocol during this period was adding the Prog.

I have always been on the high side with E2. Been on TRT for 8 years, 65 yr old, 6' 1", 220lb, total Test 550 ng/ml, E2 LC/MS Labcorp 58 pg/ml currently with ~5 mg prog EOD. Haven't checked prog blood levels. Have been a type II diabetic for 26 years which is probably why my E2 is always high. Also have BPH for over 10 yrs. I take 62mg Test cypionate SQ twice weekly, .21 mg anastrazole daily, 12.5 mg DHEA daily, ~5 mg Prog cream scrotal EOD, NO HCG. DHEA likely increases E2 as well, but I feel better with a little DHEA on board.

Prog is an aromatase inhibitor, but it is not a strong one like anastrazole, etc.
Adding Prog can increase test and increased test eventually is converted to E2 and/or DHT.

May seem impossible, but it is not. There is often significant variation between individuals which is readily apparent in reading this forum. Also, the literature is not always correct and Nobel prizes have been given to research that ultimately has been proven wrong.

Without any prog ur E2 is 41 while taking 1.47mg of ai per week, and total T only being 550?? That’s insane. It’s almost like ur ai isn’t working. Do u take any pain medication(s)? I know that opiates can nullify the effects of ai’s

 

[SSHSSA74]

My rational was that I feel freaking great and let's see if it feels even better. I can't say I feel much better, about the same. Maybe a little more rested. I just feel normal. Like I wouldn't know I was on TRT except for the fact that I feel great. Before prog I just had all these problems, sleep, anxiety, brain fog, libido. They have all improved substantially. Including water retention. I am clearly much leaner since take the progesterone. Even my BF scale confirms. My experience has led me to the idea that the issue for many is not that they need an AI but that they need progesterone. BUT it's only been a week. All I know is this is the best I have ever felt on TRT. I'm hoping that I have figured it out.

How long have you been on progesterone?

 

[mhinesii]

Without any prog ur E2 is 41 while taking 1.47mg of ai per week, and total T only being 550?? That’s insane. It’s almost like ur ai isn’t working. Do u take any pain medication(s)? I know that opiates can nullify the effects of ai’s

I take a lot of antiinflammatory supplements (tumeric, Vit C, Glucosamine sulfate, hyaluronic acid, MSM), tylenol and Naproxen, but no opiates for spinal arthritis.

 

[mhinesii]

I take a lot of antiinflammatory supplements (tumeric, Vit C, Glucosamine sulfate, hyaluronic acid, MSM), tylenol and Naproxen, but no opiates for spinal arthritis.

Also, been on anastrazole for 8 years and gradually have had to increase dose, so may be developing tolerance to it.

 

[Gman86]

I take a lot of antiinflammatory supplements (tumeric, Vit C, Glucosamine sulfate, hyaluronic acid, MSM), tylenol and Naproxen, but no opiates for spinal arthritis.

Hmm, I wonder if the Tylenol and naproxen could be nullifying the effects of ur ai. One guy was on opiates while taking TRT and had to literally take 8mg of anastrozole per week to get his E2 within range. And as far as a tolerance goes I’ve never heard of that. I would imagine it’s more of a case of whatever is causing u to have sky high E2 levels is getting worse, or something ur taking is causing the ai to have a lesser effect

Have u thought about adding low dose nandrolone for ur spinal issue? I would also look into the carnivore diet. I lost count a long time ago all the people that said their arthritis completely went away after starting the carnivore diet. A lot of them fairly quickly too. Usually 1-2 months and it was 100% resolved. Meds were no longer needed. I can give u some great resources on the carnivore diet if ur interested

Checkout this video where Dr. Lichten talks a lot about his use of nandrolone with his patients. Arthritis is obv a consequence of excess inflammation, and he says that nandrolone is one of the most anti-inflammatory compounds, even more anti-inflammatory than cortisol, IIRC