Progesterone Dose for Men

[Cataceous]

Checkout this quick video if u have time. He seems to think that progesterone definitely helps with gaining muscle, I’m curious if u think his conclusions are correct or if u see any issues with how he came to those conclusions.

Reminding me why I dislike videos for this kind of thing—30 minutes of blabbing and maybe a couple minutes of useful content. And regarding progesterone and anabolism, you just get a vague mention of "studies". So you're better off tracking it down on your own. This is probably one of them:

Testosterone and Progesterone, But Not Estradiol, Stimulate Muscle Protein Synthesis in Postmenopausal Women - PMC

The effect of the female sex steroids, estradiol and progesterone, on muscle protein turnover is unclear. Therefore, it is unknown whether the changes in the hormonal milieu throughout the life span in women contribute to the changes in muscle ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In postmenopausal women, both T and progesterone treatment increased the muscle protein fractional synthesis rate by approximately 50% (both P < .01), whereas it was not affected by estradiol treatment and was unchanged in the control group.​

So even if progesterone is producing desirable effects on musculature, which isn't totally a given, the effects are not better than with testosterone, and it would be foolish for a male to take 100 mg progesterone per day unless he's doing the trans thing.

 

[Gman86]

Reminding me why I dislike videos for this kind of thing—30 minutes of blabbing and maybe a couple minutes of useful content. And regarding progesterone and anabolism, you just get a vague mention of "studies". So you're better off tracking it down on your own. This is probably one of them:

Testosterone and Progesterone, But Not Estradiol, Stimulate Muscle Protein Synthesis in Postmenopausal Women - PMC

The effect of the female sex steroids, estradiol and progesterone, on muscle protein turnover is unclear. Therefore, it is unknown whether the changes in the hormonal milieu throughout the life span in women contribute to the changes in muscle ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In postmenopausal women, both T and progesterone treatment increased the muscle protein fractional synthesis rate by approximately 50% (both P < .01), whereas it was not affected by estradiol treatment and was unchanged in the control group.​

So even if progesterone is producing desirable effects on musculature, which isn't totally a given, the effects are not better than with testosterone, and it would be foolish for a male to take 100 mg progesterone per day unless he's doing the trans thing.

Ya I’ve seen this study before. Seems like there’s only 2 main studies on progesterone and anabolism/ catabolism that pop up. One that shows all its benefits in regards to improving protein synthesis, and the other study showing the complete opposite, and that it’s a very catabolic hormone. It’s like one study shows all these amazing things progesterone can do, and then the other study is showing that progesterone does a bunch of negative things in the body. I just don’t understand how the results of each study can be so wildly different, and opposing. Like u have Broderick Chavez and the other 2 guys in the podcast talking about how bad progesterone in males is, and u have other resources saying how beneficial and necessary progesterone is in males, especially on TRT. Just doesn’t make sense why there’s such conflicting info on this one hormone

 

[DixieWrecked]

Ya I’ve seen this study before. Seems like there’s only 2 main studies on progesterone and anabolism/ catabolism that pop up. One that shows all its benefits in regards to improving protein synthesis, and the other study showing the complete opposite, and that it’s a very catabolic hormone. It’s like one study shows all these amazing things progesterone can do, and then the other study is showing that progesterone does a bunch of negative things in the body. I just don’t understand how the results of each study can be so wildly different, and opposing. Like u have Broderick Chavez and the other 2 guys in the podcast talking about how bad progesterone in males is, and u have other resources saying how beneficial and necessary progesterone is in males, especially on TRT. Just doesn’t make sense why there’s such conflicting info on this one hormone

in that podcast they only brifly say that progesterone makes girls prettier. There was no further menton of progesterone but progestins, which are synthetic and not the same as progesterone.

 

[Zibernet]

Ya I’ve seen this study before. Seems like there’s only 2 main studies on progesterone and anabolism/ catabolism that pop up. One that shows all its benefits in regards to improving protein synthesis, and the other study showing the complete opposite, and that it’s a very catabolic hormone. It’s like one study shows all these amazing things progesterone can do, and then the other study is showing that progesterone does a bunch of negative things in the body. I just don’t understand how the results of each study can be so wildly different, and opposing. Like u have Broderick Chavez and the other 2 guys in the podcast talking about how bad progesterone in males is, and u have other resources saying how beneficial and necessary progesterone is in males, especially on TRT. Just doesn’t make sense why there’s such conflicting info on this one hormone

It's actually Lyle Mcdonald talking bad about progesterone, while Broderick Chavez and Alex Kikel are listening.
Might be because they only have their client's feedback as a testimony of progesterone effects.
And clients having a bad reaction to progesterone may be because of the estrogen detoxing period they are going through.

On the other hand, someone like Ray Peat studied for 40 years progesterone's effects under a microscope, and knows perfectly what it's actually doing.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I found this paper I am planning to read tomorrow on my long flight:

Progesterone: the forgotten hormone in men?
Oettel, M ; Mukhopadhyay, AK
The aging male, 2004-09, Vol.7 (3), p.236-257

'Classical' genomic progesterone receptors appear relatively late in phylogenesis, i.e. it is only in birds and mammals that they are detectable. In the different species, they mediate manifold effects regarding the differentiation of target organ functions, mainly in the reproductive system. Surprisingly, we know little about the physiology, endocrinology, and pharmacology of progesterone and progestins in male gender or men respectively, despite the fact that, as to progesterone secretion and serum progesterone levels, there are no great quantitative differences between men and women (at least outside the luteal phase). In a prospective cohort study of 1026 men with and without cardiovascular disease, we were not able to demonstrate any age-dependent change in serum progesterone concentrations. Progesterone influences spermiogenesis, sperm capacitation/acrosome reaction and testosterone biosynthesis in the Leydig cells. Other progesterone effects in men include those on the central nervous system (CNS) (mainly mediated by 5α-reduced progesterone metabolites as so-called neurosteroids), including blocking of gonadotropin secretion, sleep improvement, and effects on tumors in the CNS (meningioma, fibroma), as well as effects on the immune system, cardiovascular system, kidney function, adipose tissue, behavior, and respiratory system. A progestin may stimulate weight gain and appetite in men as well as in women. The detection of progesterone receptor isoforms would have a highly diagnostic value in prostate pathology (benign prostatic hypertrophy and prostate cancer). The modulation of progesterone effects on typical male targets is connected with a great pharmacodynamic variability. The reason for this is that, in men, some important effects of progesterone are mediated non-genomically through different molecular biological modes of action. Therefore, the precise therapeutic manipulation of progesterone actions in the male requires completely new endocrine-pharmacological approaches.

Download it if you are a registered member.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Role of Exogenous Progesterone in the Treatment of Men and Women with Substance Use Disorders: A Narrative Review
Peltier, MacKenzie R ; Sofuoglu, Mehmet
CNS drugs, 2018-05, Vol.32 (5), p.421-435

Substance use disorders (SUDs) remain problematic as many individuals are untreated or do not benefit from the currently available interventions. Thus, there is an urgent need to develop novel pharmacological interventions to treat SUDs. Evidence suggests that the female sex hormone, progesterone, attenuates the craving for and the euphoric effects of drugs of abuse. Research to date has demonstrated that progesterone may modulate responses to drugs of abuse and may have utility as a novel treatment for SUDs. A literature search was conducted to identify and examine studies that administered exogenous progesterone. Sixteen publications were identified, exploring the utility of exogenous progesterone or its metabolite, allopregnanolone, among a range of substances, including amphetamines (one study), benzodiazepines (one study), cocaine (nine studies), and tobacco/nicotine (five studies). Results indicated that exogenous progesterone and, its metabolite allopregnanolone, demonstrated preliminary efficacy as a treatment for substance use in both men and women. Notably, progesterone appears to target negative affect and augment cognitive functioning, especially among female substance users. Additional research is needed to explore the potential use of exogenous progesterone and allopregnanolone in the treatment of SUDs, including that associated with alcohol and opioids, but considering the current promising findings, exogenous progesterone and allopregnanolone may have utility as novel pharmacological treatments for SUDs.

 

[HarryCat2]

Mark Gordon, MD gave a presentation at the AMMG 2017 conference where he spoke about progesterone use in men. He prescribes 5mg sublingually every day for some of his male patients. Unfortunately the slides for his presentation don't look like they are available for download anymore.

 

[Gman86]

It's actually Lyle Mcdonald talking bad about progesterone, while Broderick Chavez and Alex Kikel are listening.
Might be because they only have their client's feedback as a testimony of progesterone effects.
And clients having a bad reaction to progesterone may be because of the estrogen detoxing period they are going through.

On the other hand, someone like Ray Peat studied for 40 years progesterone's effects under a microscope, and knows perfectly what it's actually doing.

So what does Ray peat think in regards to men using progesterone? And does he have any thoughts on topical progesterone? I’m reading a thread now on his forum that’s like 9 pages long. On page 3 atm

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Interesting paper...

Serum ionized magnesium and calcium
and sex hormones in healthy young men:
importance of serum progesterone level

FERTILITY AND STERILITYt
VOL. 72, NO. 5, NOVEMBER 1999
American Society for Reproductive Medicine

"Given that the levels of Mg (magnesium) and total Mg in the menopausal
women were inversely related to the concentrations of
estrogen (7), it was surprising that the levels of Mg in the
men were directly and significantly related to the levels of
progesterone (P,.05) (Fig. 1). In addition, the Ca/Mg
ratios were inversely related to the progesterone concentrations
(P,.05) (Fig. 2). These significant relations between
progesterone and Mg levels as well as the Ca/Mg
ratios did not seem to be affected by the racial composition
of our population, at least with respect to whites and blacks.
The number of Asians (n 5 3) was too small to use for a
statistically valid pool. We found no relations or correlations
(P..05) between levels of the cations and testosterone or
estrogen or between levels of the sex steroids and total Mg
in young men, either at face value or normalized for body
mass index."

Is this one of the mechanisms that explain why Mg tends to help sleep and relaxation?

 

[Gman86]

Interesting paper...

Serum ionized magnesium and calcium
and sex hormones in healthy young men:
importance of serum progesterone level

FERTILITY AND STERILITYt
VOL. 72, NO. 5, NOVEMBER 1999
American Society for Reproductive Medicine

"Given that the levels of Mg (magnesium) and total Mg in the menopausal
women were inversely related to the concentrations of
estrogen (7), it was surprising that the levels of Mg in the
men were directly and significantly related to the levels of
progesterone (P,.05) (Fig. 1). In addition, the Ca/Mg
ratios were inversely related to the progesterone concentrations
(P,.05) (Fig. 2). These significant relations between
progesterone and Mg levels as well as the Ca/Mg
ratios did not seem to be affected by the racial composition
of our population, at least with respect to whites and blacks.
The number of Asians (n 5 3) was too small to use for a
statistically valid pool. We found no relations or correlations
(P..05) between levels of the cations and testosterone or
estrogen or between levels of the sex steroids and total Mg
in young men, either at face value or normalized for body
mass index."

View attachment 15869


Is this one of the mechanisms that explain why Mg tends to help sleep and relaxation?

Was just thinking the exact same thing. I wonder if this is the reason why magnesium is tied into helping people stay calm and relaxed and improving sleep as well. Think there’s a good chance it is, at least in men not on HRT and that have a completely functioning HPTA.

Would be simple to do a study on this. Just have natural men and men on TRT both taking the same doses of magnesium, and test their prog levels before and after supplementing, and assess any subjective changes they experience, specially in regards to how well they deal with stress, how relaxed they are, and their sleep quality

 

[Smokin Joe]

Anestizzle
Can you please tell me if the progesterone cream that u are using is Yam based cream?
I've reD in several places that yam based products do not convert to progesterone but to dhea.
I want to purchase a good product first time out.
I've recently added a low dose pregnenolone and wanted to add to it.
Libido is in need.
S.J.

 

[Gman86]

@DixieWrecked Still doing well on the scrotal progesterone?

 

[anestizzle]

Anestizzle
Can you please tell me if the progesterone cream that u are using is Yam based cream?
I've reD in several places that yam based products do not convert to progesterone but to dhea.
I want to purchase a good product first time out.
I've recently added a low dose pregnenolone and wanted to add to it.
Libido is in need.
S.J.

I’ve been using the Now Solutions brand which is the Amazon’s Choice. One pump (20mg) applied to the scrotum at bedtime. No sure if it’s Yam based or not.

 

[Smokin Joe]

I'll check it out.
Thanks!

 

[DixieWrecked]

@DixieWrecked Still doing well on the scrotal progesterone?

Yep still using it. I am still enjoying it too.

 

[Anonymon]

Anyone have any bad reactions to the progesterone cream, particularly on the scrotum? Currently not doing so well. Was fine with pregnenolone cream on the legs in the morning. Wondering if the progesterone cream down there is contributing to the downturn I’ve been having, but don’t want to change the protocol until after Tuesday when I go in for bloodwork that includes those.

Generally feel the bad end of higher cortisol.

 

[Gman86]

Anyone have any bad reactions to the progesterone cream, particularly on the scrotum? Currently not doing so well. Was fine with pregnenolone cream on the legs in the morning. Wondering if the progesterone cream down there is contributing to the downturn I’ve been having, but don’t want to change the protocol until after Tuesday when I go in for bloodwork that includes those.

Generally feel the bad end of higher cortisol.

Did u feel good on the progesterone cream at first?

What dose are u using?

 

[Gman86]

Yep still using it. I am still enjoying it too.

U currently using 50mg/ day or 25mg?

 

[DixieWrecked]

U currently using 50mg/ day or 25mg?

I've been using 40 a night. 2 pumps. I am still sleeping like a champ. Thats really the only benefit I see. It is calming and helps me sleep well ALL night. Obviously good sleep is a pillar of health so the cascade of health benefits will be immense. Still no real impact on libido or erections but I am still going to be patient.

 

[Gman86]

I've been using 40 a night. 2 pumps. I am still sleeping like a champ. Thats really the only benefit I see. It is calming and helps me sleep well ALL night. Obviously good sleep is a pillar of health so the cascade of health benefits will be immense. Still no real impact on libido or erections but I am still going to be patient.

Awesome, thanks for the update. And even tho ur not seeing any positive benefits in regards to libido and erections, at least ur libido and erections haven’t gotten worse and at least ur not experiencing any feminizing symptoms so far