Osteoarthritis and adding nandrolone to TRT

[Deleted member 43589]

Not sure that would help me. Ibuprofen has been ineffective, tried Celebrix was equally as ineffective, now I have been given Naprosyn 500mg and it has been just as worthless. Took prescription meloxicam and it did nothing. Two Aspirin seemed to be more effective than any but my ortho freaked out about me taking 6/day.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Very interesting commentary here…My 2 cents on several points…

Regarding stem cells, I think a big part of the problem with stem cells (besides the very high degree of scamsterism) is that even reputable stem cell outfits often focus exclusively on stem cells rather than combining them with other things like HGH, TB4 etc. that are likely also necessary to maximize the chances of success. As one of the more sensible Docs says, injecting stem cells into someone with poor growth factors is like planting seeds in sand. Also, some of the less-reputable outfits are not candid with their patients about who is a good candidate and who is not. Apparently larger meniscus tears are an example of things which are not good candidates because the span in the tear is simply too large to fill.

Regarding heavier lifting leading to “more wear and tear and joint damage”, in my experience and observation, joint damage is predominantly due to poor form, going to failure (where form almost always degrades) and a range of motion which is too short (usually seen with leg work) or too long (dips or loading the back in an overly extended position) . Running and walking involve almost no loading other than body weight however I would say at least half of causal runners have one foot pointed out and many people walk with one or both feet pointed out (or less frequently pointed in) both of which are very damaging to joints as the book of Pete Egoscue discuss. Done properly, I would argue that (within reason) heavier weights and the overall sturdiness/body-integrity that come with them are actually beneficial for the joints.

Regarding going to lighter weights, somewhat higher reps may help reduce joint stress (only if proper form is used), however if lighter weights result in a loss of strength, they will soon be heavy weights which can lead to form degradation which will then start the cycle of decline all over again. Two things which have helped me are stopping a set before I have to “grind out” a rep and upping my total volume while still using near-maximal weights by, for example, doing something like eight sets of three for my work sets. Bottom line, nothing will overcome poor form,

Regarding whether Nandrolone simply masks pain, the best explanation I have heard for why Nandrolone benefits joint pain is that it tends to have a water-retaining affect which creates a cushioning/expansion affect in the joints, as opposed to DHT-related compounds which tend to have a drying affect, so that is more than just masking pain. Also, masking pain is not necessarily a bad thing. Ibuprofen can be said to both mask pain but also reduce inflammation which may be a partial root cause fix, however if masking the pain allows you to work the joint to get blood flow into it (as BigTex correctly points out) that in itself can have a root cause benefit, and strengthening the muscle around the joint generally improves joint integrity as well, so masking can have indirect benefits.

Regarding cycling Nandrolone, as I’ve pointing out in a another thread, many people equate Deca and Nandrolone, however for those who have access to NPP (the short ester version of Nandrolone) doing one injection a week can effectively let the body have a 3-days-on-4-days-off pattern every week.

And slightly off-topic, but speaking of the great Fred Hatfield, that reminds me to add back in some high-bar squats. I got great benefit from those many years ago although they seemed to aggravate my back, but hopefully using more of a front-squat-like foot placement will prevent that now.

 

[Tharayman]

Growth factor therapy combined with high rep training supersaturating the muscle with nutrients and I can be back to 100% easily in two weeks. BPC 157 has been more recent on the market and it is just amazing but you need much higher doses than most use. 0.84459mg/kg per week for at least 4 weeks.

Somewhat puzzled by the fact that nobody have put this statement to questioning. Where is 0.84459mg/kg coming from? That would mean that the average Joe would have to use two 5mg vials A DAY. For 4 weeks! Not only does it seem outrageous, but most people simply cant afford a regimen like that.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Somewhat puzzled by the fact that nobody have put this statement to questioning. Where is 0.84459mg/kg coming from? That would mean that the average Joe would have to use two 5mg vials A DAY. For 4 weeks! Not only does it seem outrageous, but most people simply cant afford a regimen like that.

It came from the little animal research that is out there and extrapolated to human doses. So it came out to about 6-10mg per week. In fact, NO ONE knows what dose is good for humans. I have gotten good results with 500-1000mg of BPC 157 and 2g of TB500 two times a week. I still agree that even this is expensive for most. I get mine for about $5 a vial so it is easy for me to experiment with larger doses. I have totally healed 3rd degree ligament tears using 500mcg/d for 2 weeks. Will that work on everyone? Who knows but it will work if you use enough. We just don't have any scientific data on humans. The single study on BPC 157 I believe used 4mg. Could the same thing be accomplished with less? Who knows, that was not documented. Sometimes cures are so expensive that the average Joe can't afford them.

 

[Tharayman]

I would have to pay 10x that for a vial. I believe that is a rather standardized price ATM. for 5$ I could do a vial a day and see where it landed me. Doesnt seem to be detrimental in any way that we know of.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I understand and I do have a big issue with the suppliers charging so much for products that I know for a fact they are not paying that much for. Maybe some of the guys using this here can tell us what dose they are using to get results.

 

[Sly]

I am injecting every 10 days, sub-q. Good results, my PC had me doing 200mg every 10 days and I checked my blood 5 weeks later and had a serum T level of 2103. Kind of getting more than I want so I dropped it down to 100mg every 10 days. We will see in 2 weeks where I am. I react very well with small doses. I actually had a 981 t level using testosterone undeconate and that was on 11th week of 12 week cycles.

The orthopedic surgeon I see is very well qualified. He works at the Iron Man Clinic which is the largest sports medicine clinic in Houston, its part of the UT Health Center.. We was recommended by my knee doctor Walter Lowe who is head of the Iron Man Clinic and head surgeon for the Houston Texans. He says if I stop lifting I have a good chance of losing my good ROM and my shoulder freezing up. But then I also know I am not going to stop lifting.

My injuries did not come from bodybuilding rather 27 years of powerlifting competition at a world class level. I ended my career with a 2275lb total in the 275's. I ended up with a 950 squat, 800 deadlift and 525 bench press at 48 years old. I kept competing until I was 55 when I tore my quads. So I put my body through a lot of trauma, including the 3 ruptured quad tendons. Not to mention the other numerous sports I competed in before my powerlifting career including collegiate football.

Just my opinion on physical therapists, for it for what it is worth. I personally have never found one useful. I was sent to one to rehab my quads after re-attachment and never went. What they had planned for me would have kept me out of the gym for 6 months. I did the rehab myself and was back in the gym the next weekend and released from my doctor in 5 weeks to start back squatting. I know far more about what my body can handle than they would and certainly have more knowledge of how up the healing process with medicine they have no access to or even knowledge about. I am also lucky enough to work as a professor of Kinesiology at a local university.

Yea, I understand pain very well and live with it every day of my life. But quite honestly if I was to have to give up the weight room which I have spent over 50 years of my life in, I am not so sure there how I would handle that mentally. While my goals have changed in weightlifting drastically, but I am not meant sit on the couch being a normal person.

The injuries I have I knew full well could happen many years ago. But that didn't stop me and there are certainly no regrets. I do have a powerlifting friend who had double knee replacement. He went on to squat over 1100lbs and set the all time heaviest total in the SHW's. He was better after knee replacement.

So I got my two cortisone injections today, got prescribed Naprosyn 700mg and will be in the gym tomorrow afternoon as usual. If the pain gets to the point I can't handle it, I will just get the right shoulder reconstructed and keep on going. We will see how the deca does in 2 weeks. I know you understand my mentality. Mowing the grass and watching TV is not going to cut it.

“But quite honestly if I was to have to give up the weight room which I have spent over 50 years of my life in, I am not so sure there how I would handle that mentally.”
Same. I feel you 100%. I’ts been 35 years for me and lifting “centers” me. The strength and body composition changes are just a plus now.

 

[Sly]

Also I am on 200mg nandrolone/week to cope with severe arthritis and without it , I wouldn’t be able to lift. Get bloods checked ever 6mos and all is good. Also run 200mg test/week.

 

[JimGainz]

Also I am on 200mg nandrolone/week to cope with severe arthritis and without it , I wouldn’t be able to lift. Get bloods checked ever 6mos and all is good. Also run 200mg test/week.

How is your HCT on those doses? Do you need to dump blood periodicall?

 

[JimGainz]

Also, I am a long time lifter (over 40 years under the iron) and have debilitating injuries (knees went a long time ago, shoulders about 5 years ago and recently my elbows). Nandrolone has been a game changer but even that was not enough to keep me going with free weights. I had to sell my Olympic set, switched to kettlebells and some machines which helped for a while but I still had a few issues here and there. I wound up getting the X3 Bar system. Holy shit this thing is awesome. It’s not like other bands, it can generate 600lbs of force. Check it out. They have some pro athletes and bodybuilders who claim to use it exclusively. I’m just throwing that out there as something that can give one hell of a workout without the joint damage. It took me a while to wrap my head around it but I have renewed vigor for strength training now. I will still keep up the nandrolone for sure.

 

[Sly]

How is your HCT on those doses? Do you need to dump blood periodicall?

HCT comes in around 50, Hemoglobin around 16. I donate ever 2 months

 

[JimGainz]

HCT comes in around 50, Hemoglobin around 16. I donate ever 2 months

Thanks. That’s about what mine is. I wait 3 months and it’s usually 52ish with hemoglobin 16 or 17. The problem is I keep crashing my ferritin. I was down just over single digits. I honestly don’t really feel any ill effects, but my doctor wants me to hold back on donating. The problem is I will have to lower my dose and it seems I am a high responder because even a dose as low as 70 mg of testosterone with nothing else will still have me creeping back into the low 50s, in about five months. And even then my ferritin was only a little bit higher. So, frankly, I’d rather feel and look good with the added nandrolone, and just donate more.

 

[Sly]

Also, I am a long time lifter (over 40 years under the iron) and have debilitating injuries (knees went a long time ago, shoulders about 5 years ago and recently my elbows). Nandrolone has been a game changer but even that was not enough to keep me going with free weights. I had to sell my Olympic set, switched to kettlebells and some machines which helped for a while but I still had a few issues here and there. I wound up getting the X3 Bar system. Holy shit this thing is awesome. It’s not like other bands, it can generate 600lbs of force. Check it out. They have some pro athletes and bodybuilders who claim to use it exclusively. I’m just throwing that out there as something that can give one hell of a workout without the joint damage. It took me a while to wrap my head around it but I have renewed vigor for strength training now. I will still keep up the nandrolone for sure.

I prefer free weights also, but do very little now due to having elbow surgery 11 years ago, no left with no cartilage in elbow and tendon related issues. Also rotator cuff issues and a partially torn bicep tendon. I’ve purchased several weight machines to limit the stress on areas that I have issues. Examples, replaced dumbell side laterals with a side lateral machine to take stress off my elbows. Replaced overhead dumbbell presses with Hammer strength machine press and I could no longer get dumbbells into overhead position because of my elbow. Replaced dumbell flys with old school type pec deck to take elbow and rotator cuff out of the equation. Hammer strength chest press replaced barbell and dumbell presses.

 

[Gman86]

Also I am on 200mg nandrolone/week to cope with severe arthritis and without it , I wouldn’t be able to lift. Get bloods checked ever 6mos and all is good. Also run 200mg test/week.

How do u feel mentally, energy wise, sleep, sexually with the 1:1 ratio of test:deca? Everything still all good compared to test alone?

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I came off Nandrolone two weeks ago just to give my body a break and to prove that I could stop. Pain came raging back - all my old injuries that I had forgotten about while on Nandrolone were amplified (probably because while on Nandrolone I was able to lift harder with no issues).

This anecdote perfectly encapsulates why I would never consider nandrolone for joint pain. You aren't healing anything, you're just masking it, and doing even more damage because now you don't feel the pain you should be feeling.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

This anecdote perfectly encapsulates why I would never consider nandrolone for joint pain. You aren't healing anything, you're just masking it, and doing even more damage because now you don't feel the pain you should be feeling.

I don't think this logic is nearly as clearly-cut as you imply it is. First, from what I remember from talks by pain experts, the body does not always send accurate pain signals. "Pain" from an amputated limb is one example, so masking invalid pain would be a good thing, not a bad thing if that is happening. Second, if people were continuing to do damage due to pain masking, we would expect to see rampant acceleration of joint damage (especially tendon ruptures) in people using N who previously had joint pain. While I don't know of a way to objectively track that, it certainly isn't reported on forums like this and just the opposite seems to be true. Third, there are a lot of positives to enabling more activity (blood flow, glycogen uptake, myokines, cardio conditioning etc.) that may partially or fully offset any masking. And finally, Nandrolone is apparently a promoter of tissue/collagen deposition, which would be a legitimate improvement, not masking.

That said, a partial confounder is the generally joint-unfriendly form used by most lifters in most gyms. Examples include bouncing bench presses, leg-presses with too much weight and too little range of motion, uneven training (too much pushing, too little pulling), over-training, too much volume at absolute limits, training through pain, etc. If the Nandrolone is enabling that, then the results would be bad, but that is not the fault of Nandrolone.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I don't think this logic is nearly as clearly-cut as you imply it is. First, from what I remember from talks by pain experts, the body does not always send accurate pain signals. "Pain" from an amputated limb is one example, so masking invalid pain would be a good thing, not a bad thing if that is happening. Second, if people were continuing to do damage due to pain masking, we would expect to see rampant acceleration of joint damage (especially tendon ruptures) in people using N who previously had joint pain. While I don't know of a way to objectively track that, it certainly isn't reported on forums like this and just the opposite seems to be true. Third, there are a lot of positives to enabling more activity (blood flow, glycogen uptake, myokines, cardio conditioning etc.) that may partially or fully offset any masking. And finally, Nandrolone is apparently a promoter of tissue/collagen deposition, which would be a legitimate improvement, not masking.

That said, a partial confounder is the generally joint-unfriendly form used by most lifters in most gyms. Examples include bouncing bench presses, leg-presses with too much weight and too little range of motion, uneven training (too much pushing, too little pulling), over-training, too much volume at absolute limits, training through pain, etc. If the Nandrolone is enabling that, then the results would be bad, but that is not the fault of Nandrolone.

From what I've seen, when people stop nandrolone, their joint pain returns and it is either as bad as it was before they took nandrolone (best case scenario) or it is worse like the JimGainz example. So I'm going to call that masking the problem, because they certainly didn't heal it. If nandrolone was actually healing joints, you wouldn't need to keep taking it to experience relief from pain.

If you have some examples of people that did reverse a deteriorating, damaged joint back to a state of health with a temporary course of nandrolone that would change my opinion about it.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

From what I've seen, when people stop nandrolone, their joint pain returns and it is either as bad as it was before they took nandrolone (best case scenario) or it is worse like the JimGainz example. So I'm going to call that masking the problem, because they certainly didn't heal it. If nandrolone was actually healing joints, you wouldn't need to keep taking it to experience relief from pain.

If you have some examples of people that did reverse a deteriorating, damaged joint back to a state of health with a temporary course of nandrolone that would change my opinion about it.

There are a lot of other variables here. Tissue is constantly being turned over so what could be considered short-term "healing" could still be consistent with re-onset of pain when the Nandrolone is stopped. If someone has been on Nandrolone for years for pain management and maintained a fairly youthful level of activity without catastrophic joint damage, I would say that qualifies as an improved, although not necessarily ideal "state of health". And again, if the pain was invalid in the first place, you wouldn't necessarily need healing.

Also, as someone who has had bouts of joint/back pain myself, the other question becomes, if not Nandrolone, then what to use? That's a bigger discussion but to cite one example, AFAIK ibuprofen and related compounds are far from benign for the vasculature and kidneys, so even if there is some masking of "legitimate" pain going on with N, that still may be the best option, especially since being able to use a joint via sensible activity is a healing modality in itself.

My guess is that the root cause of most joint pain is poor form (lifting, walking, running, etc.) and low-level food allergies that manifest as joint pain, so removing those is, for most people, step one. Former high-level athletes are likely in a different category.

 

[Keepfit1]

I also had a torn rotary cuff. Along with a torn bicep and bone spur on shoulder. My bicep was not a complete tear, and I did not know it was torn, no pain. I did lower my testosterone a lot, when I tried nandrolone. I used 20 mg of testosterone one day and then the next day I used 20 mg of nandrolone. Average weekly dose was 70 mg of testosterone and 70 mg of nandrolone.

I actually enjoy the experience and would continue using that protocol, if it wasn't for my cholesterol panel. It did not lower my HDL, but destroyed my particle numbers. Heart disease scares me, because of my family history. So I stopped the trial of nandrolone.

what do you mean by particle numbers, its not a term I have heard

 

[Vince]

what do you mean by particle numbers, its not a term I have heard

Smaller particles of LDL (bad) cholesterol carry greater heart disease risk than larger ones.

https://www.healthcentral.com/condition/high-cholesterol/cholesterol-particle-size