Osteoarthritis and adding nandrolone to TRT

[Jed Dorsey]

Big Tex keep in mind it takes typically about 3 weeks to get full positive effects of nandrolone so be patient and give it a good try. Good luck

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Thanks Jed!

 

[Pacman]

So followup report: I started about a 3 weeks ago adding Nandrolone to my protocol. I started with 20 mg N along with my 60 mg T (1:3 ratio) every 3 days, and recently upped T to 80mg and N to 30mg.

It actually helped my shoulder feel a lot better!!! Not 100%, but I'd say a good 80%!! The only thing that scares me is to put too much stress on my shoulder so I am being very careful in the gym. But the day-to-day (including the end of the day and also when I wake up in the morning which is when it often aches the most) it is like 80% less!

However, it did nothing for my tennis elbow. I do not feel any reduction in symptoms there. I wonder why that is?

And regarding sex drive, I can feel a reduction in sex drive. I did skip two doses of N to make sure, and yup, my sex drive shot right back up! So the Nandrolone definitely reduces my sex drive for some reason.

I have a 10ml bottle of nandrolone deconate 200mg/ml and guess I need to give it a try at 100mg/wk.

That's your starting dose? What is your T dose? My understanding is that the Nandrolone:Testosterone ratio should not be any higher than 1:2, and preferably 1:3 or less due to conserving the androgenic effects of testosterone (i.e. sex drive and function).... Mine is 1:3.

Wouldn't it be wiser to start at a more modest dose and work your way up? Maybe you only need a fraction of that dose.

 

[Gman86]

So followup report: I started about a 3 weeks ago adding Nandrolone to my protocol. I started with 20 mg N along with my 60 mg T (1:3 ratio) every 3 days, and recently upped T to 80mg and N to 30mg.

It actually helped my shoulder feel a lot better!!! Not 100%, but I'd say a good 80%!! The only thing that scares me is to put too much stress on my shoulder so I am being very careful in the gym. But the day-to-day (including the end of the day and also when I wake up in the morning which is when it often aches the most) it is like 80% less!

However, it did nothing for my tennis elbow. I do not feel any reduction in symptoms there. I wonder why that is?

And regarding sex drive, I can feel a reduction in sex drive. I did skip two doses of N to make sure, and yup, my sex drive shot right back up! So the Nandrolone definitely reduces my sex drive for some reason.


That's your starting dose? What is your T dose? My understanding is that the Nandrolone:Testosterone ratio should not be any higher than 1:2, and preferably 1:3 or less due to conserving the androgenic effects of testosterone (i.e. sex drive and function).... Mine is 1:3.

Wouldn't it be wiser to start at a more modest dose and work your way up? Maybe you only need a fraction of that dose.

So what’s ur total test and nandrolone doses in mgs per week atm?

 

[Deleted member 43589]

So followup report: I started about a 3 weeks ago adding Nandrolone to my protocol. I started with 20 mg N along with my 60 mg T (1:3 ratio) every 3 days, and recently upped T to 80mg and N to 30mg.

It actually helped my shoulder feel a lot better!!! Not 100%, but I'd say a good 80%!! The only thing that scares me is to put too much stress on my shoulder so I am being very careful in the gym. But the day-to-day (including the end of the day and also when I wake up in the morning which is when it often aches the most) it is like 80% less!

However, it did nothing for my tennis elbow. I do not feel any reduction in symptoms there. I wonder why that is?

And regarding sex drive, I can feel a reduction in sex drive. I did skip two doses of N to make sure, and yup, my sex drive shot right back up! So the Nandrolone definitely reduces my sex drive for some reason.


That's your starting dose? What is your T dose? My understanding is that the Nandrolone:Testosterone ratio should not be any higher than 1:2, and preferably 1:3 or less due to conserving the androgenic effects of testosterone (i.e. sex drive and function).... Mine is 1:3.

Wouldn't it be wiser to start at a more modest dose and work your way up? Maybe you only need a fraction of that dose.

I think you are right. I will probably go 50mg. I am only doing 100mg of test/10 days. In the past I have used quite a bit of deca and never had any issues. Back in the early 80's my doctor prescribed it and I used around 600mg/wk. But that was then and my goals are certainly much different now.

I will add this about using the shoulder in the gym. My orthopedic surgeon told me by all means to keep training like I am. She says the weight training will keep strong muscles supporting the shoulder and help avoid atrophy and complete loss of ROM. He was pretty shocked that despite how bad my osteoarthritis is I am still very muscular and still have a very good ROM.

I am going in next Tuesday to get the TRIAMCINOLONE ACETONIDE injections in both shoulders. That will eliminate the pain in the left shoulder completely and cut the pain in the right should by 2/3's. Then I will add the deca. I want to see where my pain goes after the two injections.

 

[Pacman]

So what’s ur total test and nandrolone doses in mgs per week atm?

Roughly 180 T, and 70 N.

I think you are right. I will probably go 50mg. I am only doing 100mg of test/10 days. In the past I have used quite a bit of deca and never had any issues. Back in the early 80's my doctor prescribed it and I used around 600mg/wk. But that was then and my goals are certainly much different now.

You inject only every 10 days, and you feel good with such an infrequent injection? Are you injecting a very long ester?

I used to inject once a week (cypionate), and when I switched it over to every 3 days (cypionate) my sex drive and moods were a million times better, and that was at a reduced total dosage!

I will add this about using the shoulder in the gym. My orthopedic surgeon told me by all means to keep training like I am. She says the weight training will keep strong muscles supporting the shoulder and help avoid atrophy and complete loss of ROM. He was pretty shocked that despite how bad my osteoarthritis is I am still very muscular and still have a very good ROM.

This is what your doctor told you? This is such a strange thing to say from a medical/physiological perspective. I am not going to suggest not listening to a doctor, but if this is what your doctor said I'd at least get a second opinion from another doctor (preferably a sports medicine doctor).

Weight training of the sort that builds muscle doesn't really work on the joint support muscles, the ones that support your shoulder. The rotator cuff muscles are the muscles that support the stability of your shoulder. And yes they are being used in the process of weight training, but classic lateral raises, rear delt raises, military presses, etc etc don't improve the rotator cuff muscles.

Physical therapists (they are all about joint and tendon health) have completely different exercise protocols if the goal is joint health and/or rehabilitation. If bodybuilding would improve joint health and joint support muscles, joint problems would not be such a common issue in the bodybuilding world.

Improving ROM is also a completely different type of exercise program if increased ROM is the main goal. Check out Functional Range Conditioning, it will change your life: FRC® Principles | Functional Anatomy Seminars

How can your doctor be shocked that after many years of bodybuilding style training you have joint issues? That is literally one of the most common issues in bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is terrible for the joints. (Just to be clear, I am referring to the old school type of bodybuilding where you go above and beyond what your body can handle, not regular resistance/weight training and just generally keeping in shape. And if you were taking 600mg/wk deca in the 80s, you are probably in the old school bodybuilding group). I am in the same group btw, I am not ripping on you or anything. I love bodybuilding so much, but I am starting to pay a price because of it.

Resistance training is very important, and will prevent muscular atrophy, but bodybuilding is not going to save your shoulder joint from osteoarthritis or prevent general loss of ROM beyond a very basic level. It might even exacerbate the issues, that also depends on your form of course.

Here's a good video from Scooby on this topic:

This is constructive criticism btw (of your doctor, not you). I am suffering now in multiple joints (left shoulder and right elbow), and I just don't want others to suffer the same way. It is fucking hell, because I love the gym.

The worst thing about osteoarthitis is once you have it, you are stuck with it, since it is essentially deterioration of the cartilage in the joint capsule that prevents bones from rubbing on each other. And cartilage does not grow back, and so far medical science does not have a way to replace it or artificially grow it back. The scientist who comes up with a method of restoring cartilage will become an overnight billionare. I'd certainly pay whatever price he demands to restore my shoulder to optimum health (and my elbow for that matter).

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I am injecting every 10 days, sub-q. Good results, my PC had me doing 200mg every 10 days and I checked my blood 5 weeks later and had a serum T level of 2103. Kind of getting more than I want so I dropped it down to 100mg every 10 days. We will see in 2 weeks where I am. I react very well with small doses. I actually had a 981 t level using testosterone undeconate and that was on 11th week of 12 week cycles.

The orthopedic surgeon I see is very well qualified. He works at the Iron Man Clinic which is the largest sports medicine clinic in Houston, its part of the UT Health Center.. We was recommended by my knee doctor Walter Lowe who is head of the Iron Man Clinic and head surgeon for the Houston Texans. He says if I stop lifting I have a good chance of losing my good ROM and my shoulder freezing up. But then I also know I am not going to stop lifting.

My injuries did not come from bodybuilding rather 27 years of powerlifting competition at a world class level. I ended my career with a 2275lb total in the 275's. I ended up with a 950 squat, 800 deadlift and 525 bench press at 48 years old. I kept competing until I was 55 when I tore my quads. So I put my body through a lot of trauma, including the 3 ruptured quad tendons. Not to mention the other numerous sports I competed in before my powerlifting career including collegiate football.

Just my opinion on physical therapists, for it for what it is worth. I personally have never found one useful. I was sent to one to rehab my quads after re-attachment and never went. What they had planned for me would have kept me out of the gym for 6 months. I did the rehab myself and was back in the gym the next weekend and released from my doctor in 5 weeks to start back squatting. I know far more about what my body can handle than they would and certainly have more knowledge of how up the healing process with medicine they have no access to or even knowledge about. I am also lucky enough to work as a professor of Kinesiology at a local university.

Yea, I understand pain very well and live with it every day of my life. But quite honestly if I was to have to give up the weight room which I have spent over 50 years of my life in, I am not so sure there how I would handle that mentally. While my goals have changed in weightlifting drastically, but I am not meant sit on the couch being a normal person.

The injuries I have I knew full well could happen many years ago. But that didn't stop me and there are certainly no regrets. I do have a powerlifting friend who had double knee replacement. He went on to squat over 1100lbs and set the all time heaviest total in the SHW's. He was better after knee replacement.

So I got my two cortisone injections today, got prescribed Naprosyn 700mg and will be in the gym tomorrow afternoon as usual. If the pain gets to the point I can't handle it, I will just get the right shoulder reconstructed and keep on going. We will see how the deca does in 2 weeks. I know you understand my mentality. Mowing the grass and watching TV is not going to cut it.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Roughly 180 T, and 70 N.


You inject only every 10 days, and you feel good with such an infrequent injection? Are you injecting a very long ester?

I used to inject once a week (cypionate), and when I switched it over to every 3 days (cypionate) my sex drive and moods were a million times better, and that was at a reduced total dosage!


This is what your doctor told you? This is such a strange thing to say from a medical/physiological perspective. I am not going to suggest not listening to a doctor, but if this is what your doctor said I'd at least get a second opinion from another doctor (preferably a sports medicine doctor).

Weight training of the sort that builds muscle doesn't really work on the joint support muscles, the ones that support your shoulder. The rotator cuff muscles are the muscles that support the stability of your shoulder. And yes they are being used in the process of weight training, but classic lateral raises, rear delt raises, military presses, etc etc don't improve the rotator cuff muscles.

Physical therapists (they are all about joint and tendon health) have completely different exercise protocols if the goal is joint health and/or rehabilitation. If bodybuilding would improve joint health and joint support muscles, joint problems would not be such a common issue in the bodybuilding world.

Improving ROM is also a completely different type of exercise program if increased ROM is the main goal. Check out Functional Range Conditioning, it will change your life: FRC® Principles | Functional Anatomy Seminars

How can your doctor be shocked that after many years of bodybuilding style training you have joint issues? That is literally one of the most common issues in bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is terrible for the joints. (Just to be clear, I am referring to the old school type of bodybuilding where you go above and beyond what your body can handle, not regular resistance/weight training and just generally keeping in shape. And if you were taking 600mg/wk deca in the 80s, you are probably in the old school bodybuilding group). I am in the same group btw, I am not ripping on you or anything. I love bodybuilding so much, but I am starting to pay a price because of it.

Resistance training is very important, and will prevent muscular atrophy, but bodybuilding is not going to save your shoulder joint from osteoarthritis or prevent general loss of ROM beyond a very basic level. It might even exacerbate the issues, that also depends on your form of course.

Here's a good video from Scooby on this topic:

This is constructive criticism btw (of your doctor, not you). I am suffering now in multiple joints (left shoulder and right elbow), and I just don't want others to suffer the same way. It is fucking hell, because I love the gym.

The worst thing about osteoarthitis is once you have it, you are stuck with it, since it is essentially deterioration of the cartilage in the joint capsule that prevents bones from rubbing on each other. And cartilage does not grow back, and so far medical science does not have a way to replace it or artificially grow it back. The scientist who comes up with a method of restoring cartilage will become an overnight billionare. I'd certainly pay whatever price he demands to restore my shoulder to optimum health (and my elbow for that matter).

You may want to look into stem cells and/or injections of growth hormone directly into the joint. There was a Dr who claimed to be able to re-grow cartilage with HGH injections who is no longer in practice but it may be worth a try of you find someone to do the injections. I assume you've tried the usual suspects (TB4, BPC 157, DMSO).

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Thanks! Done the HGH already , hopefully it is working, but I found IGF-1 Lr3 is much better, along with BPC 157, EGF and MGF. I used that combination of my quad surgery. I did micro injections around the repair for 6 weeks. At 55 years old my surgeon said I was the poster child for recovery from quad reattachment surgery. He has never seen any of his pro athletes return so quickly. He was aware of what I was doing but said he could not condone this type of therapy but know athletes do what they have to do. I did also have PRP done after surgery. It was still very experimental at that point.


OK, I found a little research on why sports medicine doctors claim it is best to continue working out with osteoarthritis. My doctor is a shoulder specialist and would absolutely not be my doctor had I suspected he didn't have a clue what he was talking about. I have probably more knowledge in the area (other that the surgical side) than he does. Its my profession too.

Latham, Nancy, and Chiung-ju Liu. “Strength training in older adults: the benefits for osteoarthritis.” Clinics in geriatric medicine vol. 26,3 (2010): 445-59. doi:10.1016/j.cger.2010.03.006

Strength training in older adults: The benefits for osteoarthritis

Synopsis

The aim of this review was to summarize the findings of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of progressive resistance strength training (PRT) by older people with osteoarthritis (OA). When data from 8 RCTs were synthesized using meta-analysis, a significant benefit from PRT was found on lower extremity extensor strength (standardized mean difference (SMD) 0.33, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.12, 0.54), function (SMD 0.33, 95% CI 0.18) and pain reduction −0.35 (95% CI −0.52, −0.18). Across all three outcomes, the estimated effect size was moderate, which contrasted with trials of PRT in non-OA specific groups of older adults where a large effect was found on strength, but a small effect on function. This suggests that strength training has particularly strong functional benefits for older adults with OA. Older adults with osteoarthritis will benefit from a strength training program that provides progressive overload to maintain intensity throughout the exercise program. Clinicians should encourage participation in exercise training programs, even in the oldest old with OA.

Muscle weakness, particularly of the knee extensors, is common in people with OA7, 20 and has been consistently shown to be associated with an increased risk of functional limitations and disability.20, 21 The Bristol Knee OA study found lower limb strength to be a stronger predictor of functional limitations than radiographic severity or knee pain.21

The nature of the cause –effect relationship between muscle weakness and OA is complex, and has been widely debated. While strength probably declines in people with OA as a secondary result of reduced activity, there is also evidence that muscle weakness directly contributes to the development and progression of OA.20 Muscle strength appears to have a protective effect against the disability associated with progressing OA. In a longitudinal study that monitored a cohort of women with for 6 years who had no functional limitations at baseline, knee extensor strength was protective against the development of functional limitations associated with OA.22

There are also a large number of randomized controlled clinical trials (RCTs) that support the benefits of exercise in general, and strength training in particular, in people with OA. Recent systematic reviews and guidelines have summarized the evidence for the effectiveness of strength training in people with osteoarthritis, and have found that strength training has a significant benefit in improving strength and function and in reducing pain.9–11 [/b} However, these reviews have also found that the reductions in pain and improvements in function are modest.

Summary and Recommendations

Older adults with osteoarthritis will benefit from a strength training program that provides progressive overload to maintain intensity throughout the exercise program. Significant improvements in strength and function and pain reduction were seen when the data from 8 RCTs were synthesized, and there was a moderate effect size for all three outcomes.

Clinicians should encourage participation in exercise training programs, even in the oldest old with OA. There is no evidence that there is significantly decreased efficacy or increased risk of adverse events when older adults with OA participate in exercise programs compared to younger adults. People with OA should be reassured that it is unlikely to exacerbate their pain if performed using the appropriate methods and at the appropriate dose. In fact, the evidence suggests that it will decrease pain in most older people.

Ettinger WH Jr, Burns R, Messier SP, Applegate W, Rejeski WJ, Morgan T, Shumaker S, Berry MJ, O'Toole M, Monu J, Craven T. A randomized trial comparing aerobic exercise and resistance exercise with a health education program in older adults with knee osteoarthritis. The Fitness Arthritis and Seniors Trial (FAST). JAMA. 1997 Jan 1;277(1):25-31. PMID: 8980206.

Abstract​

Objective: To determine the effects of structured exercise programs on self-reported disability in older adults with knee osteoarthritis.

Setting and design: A randomized, single-blind clinical trial lasting 18 months conducted at 2 academic medical centers.

Participants: A total of 439 community-dwelling adults, aged 60 years or older, with radiographically evident knee osteoarthritis, pain, and self-reported physical disability.

Interventions: An aerobic exercise program, a resistance exercise program, and a health education program.

Main outcome measures: The primary outcome was self-reported disability score (range, 1-5). The secondary outcomes were knee pain score (range, 1-6), performance measures of physical function, x-ray score, aerobic capacity, and knee muscle strength.

Results: A total of 365 (83%) participants completed the trial. Overall compliance with the exercise prescription was 68% in the aerobic training group and 70% in the resistance training group. Postrandomization, participants in the aerobic exercise group had a 10% lower adjusted mean (+/- SE) score on the physical disability questionnaire (1.71 +/- 0.03 vs 1.90 +/- 0.04 units; P<.001), a 12% lower score on the knee pain questionnaire (2.1 +/- 0.05 vs 2.4 +/- 0.05 units; P=.001), and performed better (mean [+/- SE]) on the 6-minute walk test (1507 +/- 16 vs 1349 +/- 16 ft; P<.001), mean (+/-SE) time to climb and descend stairs (12.7 +/- 0.4 vs 13.9 +/- 0.4 seconds; P=.05), time to lift and carry 10 pounds (9.1 +/- 0.2 vs 10.0 +/- 0.1 seconds; P<.001), and mean (+/-SE) time to get in and out of a car (8.7 +/- 0.3 vs 10.6 +/- 0.3 seconds; P<.001) than the health education group. The resistance exercise group had an 8% lower score on the physical disability questionnaire (1.74 +/- 0.04 vs 1.90 +/- 0.03 units; P=.003), 8% lower pain score (2.2 +/- 0.06 vs 2.4 +/- 0.05 units; P=.02), greater distance on the 6-minute walk (1406 +/- 17 vs 1349 +/- 16 ft; P=.02), faster times on the lifting and carrying task (9.3 +/- 0.1 vs 10.0 +/- 0.16 seconds; P=.001), and the car task (9.0 +/- 0.3 vs 10.6 +/- 0.3 seconds; P=.003) than the health education group. There were no differences in x-ray scores between either exercise group and the health education group.

Conclusions: Older disabled persons with osteoarthritis of the knee had modest improvements in measures of disability, physical performance, and pain from participating in either an aerobic or a resistance exercise program. These data suggest that exercise should be prescribed as part of the treatment for knee osteoarthritis.

Can you lift weights after joint replacement? Patients are often most surprised to learn that they are not only permitted to lift weights but are encouraged to lift weights after receiving a joint replacement. In fact, lifting weights is the best thing a patient can do for the prolonged life of their artificial joint. Weight training strengthens muscles and increases bone density, all while being relatively easy on the joints. Like I mentioned powerlifter Gary Frank had double knee replacement surgery after playing in the NGF. 5-6 after his surgery he set the all time heavies total and squat lifting in the superheavyweight division. It took him a few years to regain his ROM in the knee and had difficulty at first breaking parallel on the squat.

Symptomatic glenohumeral arthritis (GHA) among high-level bodybuilders and powerlifters is relatively common. However, it is suspected that it is more likely related to genetic factors, age and or traumatic injury (ie. football). Joints, connective tissue and vertebral disk slowly degenerate with age. As a matter of fact, joint arthritis is so common as we age it is estimated that over 60% of people over 50 have some form of arthritis. So is more prevalent in these two sports or perhaps is it invadable as we age. Chuck Norris also had hip replacement surgery. Certainly not a bodybuilder or powerlifter. One of our ex-professors retired after getting hip replacement surgery. She was big into aerobics exercise.

Uribe J, Luis Vargas John Z. Minimum 2 Years Outcomes of Powerlifters and Bodybuilders with advanced Glenohumeral arthritis, managed with Stemless aspherical humeral head resurfacing and inlay glenoid. Orthopaedic Journal of Sports Medicine. July 2020. doi:10.1177/2325967120S00417

Stemless aspherical humeral head resurfacing combined with inlay glenoid replacement provides substantial pain relief and functional improvement and is a promising option for the management of symptomatic osteoarthritis in this challenging patient population. The procedure allows for a return to activities without restrictions and leaves multiple arthroplasty options if revision becomes necessary.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Very interesting, thanks. I am a huge believer in maximizing blood flow, especially to an injured joint and I suspect that alone is beneficial, especially if is carries the enhanced growth factors that come with training. You're probably aware of the items in the post below, but here it is for reference. I would at least add Blood Flow Restriction training if I was writing this now...

Fixes for Joint Issues: A list of Some Basics

Every few months or so, a post seems to come along saying something along the lines of “should I do PRP or Stem Cells or Nandrolone or anti-inflammatory injections or [insert something exotic here] for joint issues”. While all of these and others likely have their place, they are often either...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Very interesting, thanks. I am a huge believer in maximizing blood flow, especially to an injured joint and I suspect that alone is beneficial, especially if is carries the enhanced growth factors that come with training. You're probably aware of the items in the post below, but here it is for reference. I would at least add Blood Flow Restriction training if I was writing this now...

Fixes for Joint Issues: A list of Some Basics

Every few months or so, a post seems to come along saying something along the lines of “should I do PRP or Stem Cells or Nandrolone or anti-inflammatory injections or [insert something exotic here] for joint issues”. While all of these and others likely have their place, they are often either...

www.excelmale.com

Welcome and thank you for the link. Enhanced growth factors are very critical and something I learned from Dr. Fred Hatfield years back is high reps (30-40 reps), is critical in the 1st few weeks of rehab. Physical therapists will not do this type of therapy, nor will doctors or even suggest it because none of it has been approved by the FDA, even PRP is off label and insurance will not cover it but it works for most. If you look at the growth factors in your blood that is specifically used for PRP you will see how important this whole process it. Most of these growth factors can easily be obtained greatly speeding up your recovery process. The more nutrients you can force into the muscle when yow are rehabbing an injury the quicker you will recover. Those super high reps do a great job of that and if you combine it with BFRT is can even be more effective. I have recovered from minor small tears in the tie-in of the pectoralis major where there is some pain and very slight bruising, in two weeks. Growth factor therapy combined with high rep training supersaturating the muscle with nutrients and I can be back to 100% easily in two weeks. BPC 157 has been more recent on the market and it is just amazing but you need much higher doses than most use. 0.84459mg/kg per week for at least 4 weeks.

Never tried stim cell therapy but one of my collogues at work did and had no luck with it I do like these two items you mentioned...DMSO and Aspirin instead of Ibuprofen. The physician assistant I saw yesterday and the sport medicine clinic was very critical of my use of aspirin. So she wanted me to take Naprosyn instead, Hell, I was taking aspirin for a good reason. All you have to do is compare the side effects. Aspirin is not nearly as had on the kidneys or cardiovascular system. She told me the max dose is 2g. Not true at all it is 4g. I have been taking less than 2g/d anyway. I am going to give the naprosyn a try taking 500mg x 2/d and well see. However it significantly affects blood pressure and kidney values which I certainly don't need. Long term>3 years it has some pretty harsh effects on the cardiac system. I have been using DMSO since the early 80's. Big believer in its healing power and as a drug transport vehicle. My use DMSO with my wife to do low dose test base. It has great anti-inflammatory properties used directly on injuries.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I wanted to also add this...I also have osteoarthritis in my left knee and 1/2 the meniscus. Did the Sodium Hyaluronate (Viscosup) injections for the 3 time in March. Absolutely no pain, today I did 790lbs 16/45lb plates and change) on the leg press for 10 reps. It was my final set of 5. Not so bad for a 65 year old, huh? Never say never.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Since this subject came up, does being an athlete lead to osteoarthritis or is this perhaps due to injury, genetic factors, age? Remember 60% of people over the age of 50 end up with having problems to some degree. So does bodybuilding and powerlifting really cause osteoarthritis?

Sandmeier, Robert H. “Osteoarthritis and Exercise: Does Increased Activity Wear Out Joints?.” The Permanente Journal vol. 4,4 (2000): 26–28.

Full study

Osteoarthritis and Exercise: Does Increased Activity Wear Out Joints? - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Several authors have attempted to differentiate between weightbearing and nonweightbearing activity. Sohn and Micheli15 attempted to control for the effect of weightbearing exercise by comparing 504 former college runners with 287 swimmers and found no difference in the incidence of osteoarthritis. Kujala et al16 found radiographic signs of osteoarthritis in 3% of the shooters studied, 29% of the soccer players, 31% of the weightlifters, and 14% of the runners. The authors16 felt that the majority of the differences in the incidence of osteoarthritis could be explained by the higher rate of injury in soccer players and by increased body weight in weightlifters.16 Knee injuries resulted in a fivefold increased risk of osteoarthritis.16 Kujala et al17 also reported on 2049 athletes who competed in the Olympic Games from 1920 to 1965, comparing the athletes with 1403 matched controls. In this study, the endpoint (presenting for joint replacement) takes into account symptoms as well as radiographic criteria. Endurance athletes (runners) had a relative risk of 1.73, participants in mixed-type sports (ex-soccer players) had a relative risk of 1.9, and participants in power sports (weightlifting, wrestling) had a relative risk of 2.17.17 Incidence of injury was not reported.

Conclusions​

Impact loads are the most likely to result in injury to articular cartilage. Having well-developed muscles decreases the loading on the cartilage and thus has a protective effect. Animal research suggests that exercise—at least when done in the form of running—is not harmful to normal joints even under high loads and over long distances. In contrast, similar exercise of an injured joint leads to arthritic change. The literature suggests that in humans, athletic activity is associated with a slightly increased risk of osteoarthritis. Athletic individuals seem to tolerate similar radiographic levels of osteoarthritis with less disability than nonathletic individuals. Joint injury is the primary factor that increases the risk of arthritis developing in athletes.

 

[tareload]

My injuries did not come from bodybuilding rather 27 years of powerlifting competition at a world class level. I ended my career with a 2275lb total in the 275's. I ended up with a 950 squat, 800 deadlift and 525 bench press at 48 years old. I kept competing until I was 55 when I tore my quads. So I put my body through a lot of trauma, including the 3 ruptured quad tendons. Not to mention the other numerous sports I competed in before my powerlifting career including collegiate football.

From a BB/powerlifting standpoint I was going to weigh in how using nandrolone simply masks one's pain to some degree which then leads to heavier lifting and more wear-and-tear/damage. Hence, once you do off (if you cycle on and off the nandrolone) you've done even more damage than if you had not taken it. "Area under curve" if you will. But then I read your above comments and thought, whoops nevermind, given world class level you were accustomed to. Very impressive Sir! Hang it there.

Still the nuttiest thing I got to witness with my own eyes (James Henderson circa 1997):

WWE Bench Press Records are Legit

RW Animal and Warlord 6 plate benchers. Many incredibly strong dudes in that video. TA: Incredibly strong dude. Here doing still 405 for 3 at ~45 years old. Not WWE related but still the most impressive BP I’ve seen with my own eyes. 700 lb raw similar to this video (yes I...

forums.t-nation.com

For those interested think about the "order of magnitude" type difference going from 575 raw bench below to 700 shown above:

WWE Bench Press Records are Legit

Big E in this video did a 575 raw bench, casual b roll footage of a 700+ squad and an old clip of him competing and hitting a 800 deadlift. Ridiculous

forums.t-nation.com

 

[JimGainz]

I came off Nandrolone two weeks ago just to give my body a break and to prove that I could stop. Pain came raging back - all my old injuries that I had forgotten about while on Nandrolone were amplified (probably because while on Nandrolone I was able to lift harder with no issues). I plan to stay off for a bout 6 weeks and start set again.
in the meantime, to deal with the joint pain, I ordered this product: I have been doing research on ways to alleviate joint pain. Lots of studies on Fish oil but fish oil helps create these Specialized Pro Resolving Mediators (SPMs) so studies have shown remarkable anti inflammatory response by just taking the SPMs directly. I’ll post back if they work in a few weeks.

SPM Active® for Body and Joint Support*

Support your body with this SPM supplement from Metagenics. Relieve minor pain, promote tissue health, and improve joint comfort today!

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I am back on Nandrolone full time and am never going off. My body was like a broken piece of wood. Pains that I had all but forgotten about came back - probably because I was lifting harder and heavier with the nandrolon. The SPM supplements and also changing my workout to much lighter (like going from power lifting routines to using the Total Gym) helped me deal with the aches and pains but this is no way to live.

I pinned 90 mg of nandrolone Saturday and feel amazing again. I need to manage risk with quality of life. Nandrolone has me feeling like I was in my 20s. Also, i don’t believe in those animal models of it being 11 x worse for heart tissue. Have you seen those studies and the human equivalent dose? Even if it took off a decade or more I am willing to do that due to the relief I get.
just my 2 cents. I’ll continue to moderate the dose every few months but plan to stay on. My doc is an older weight lifter as well and told me he hasn’t come off in 2.5 years for the same reason.

 

[Gman86]

I am back on Nandrolone full time and am never going off. My body was like a broken piece of wood. Pains that I had all but forgotten about came back - probably because I was lifting harder and heavier with the nandrolon. The SPM supplements and also changing my workout to much lighter (like going from power lifting routines to using the Total Gym) helped me deal with the aches and pains but this is no way to live.

I pinned 90 mg of nandrolone Saturday and feel amazing again. I need to manage risk with quality of life. Nandrolone has me feeling like I was in my 20s. Also, i don’t believe in those animal models of it being 11 x worse for heart tissue. Have you seen those studies and the human equivalent dose? Even if it took off a decade or more I am willing to do that due to the relief I get.
just my 2 cents. I’ll continue to moderate the dose every few months but plan to stay on. My doc is an older weight lifter as well and told me he hasn’t come off in 2.5 years for the same reason.

Thanks for the anecdote. When u say ur gonna continue moderating ur dose, do u mean ur gonna try and find the minimum effective dose that still alleviates ur aches and pains?

And jc, any ideas what dose ur doc is taking per week?

 

[JimGainz]

Thanks for the anecdote. When u say ur gonna continue moderating ur dose, do u mean ur gonna try and find the minimum effective dose that still alleviates ur aches and pains?

And jc, any ideas what dose ur doc is taking per week?

I’m going to adjust downwards every few months. This past go around I was taking about 100 mg/wk with no issues for about 3 months then went to 50 for 2 weeks then to 30 mg just to see what was a minimum effective dose. Keep in mind then even went I titrated downward the higher amounts were still in my system so it’s not like going on a low dose from the start.

My thinking is that lowering the dose for a month is as close to coming off as I’ll go and still provides some benefits but also giving my body a break to a certain extent.

I don’t know what this doc was taking but he’s a pretty big guy and into the safe use of anabolic and PEDs - I would assume no less than 100 mg/wk. I’ll try to find out for sure.

 

[Gman86]

I’m going to adjust downwards every few months. This past go around I was taking about 100 mg/wk with no issues for about 3 months then went to 50 for 2 weeks then to 30 mg just to see what was a minimum effective dose. Keep in mind then even went I titrated downward the higher amounts were still in my system so it’s not like going on a low dose from the start.

My thinking is that lowering the dose for a month is as close to coming off as I’ll go and still provides some benefits but also giving my body a break to a certain extent.

I don’t know what this doc was taking but he’s a pretty big guy and into the safe use of anabolic and PEDs - I would assume no less than 100 mg/wk. I’ll try to find out for sure.

Think that’s a great plan. Maybe just titrate down 20-25mg every 4-6 weeks. I would personally do every 6 weeks since compounded nandrolone has a longer half life than cyp or enanthate. Curious to see what the minimum effective dose ends up being for u. Definitely keep us posted if u remember. And ya if u can find out what dose ur doc has been using all that time it would be good, I’m jc, but obv no biggie if not. Just a curiosity thing more than anything.

 

[Fluoxymesterone]

I am back on Nandrolone full time and am never going off. My body was like a broken piece of wood. Pains that I had all but forgotten about came back - probably because I was lifting harder and heavier with the nandrolon. The SPM supplements and also changing my workout to much lighter (like going from power lifting routines to using the Total Gym) helped me deal with the aches and pains but this is no way to live.

I pinned 90 mg of nandrolone Saturday and feel amazing again. I need to manage risk with quality of life. Nandrolone has me feeling like I was in my 20s. Also, i don’t believe in those animal models of it being 11 x worse for heart tissue. Have you seen those studies and the human equivalent dose? Even if it took off a decade or more I am willing to do that due to the relief I get.
just my 2 cents. I’ll continue to moderate the dose every few months but plan to stay on. My doc is an older weight lifter as well and told me he hasn’t come off in 2.5 years for the same reason.

Hi,
It’s good to see that the SPM supplements help. By how much do they reduce pain ? I’m looking into buying it and it has good reviews.
I found that astaxanthin stopped my knee pain, but I’m taking 24mg BID. It works well, but less than this dosage isn’t enough for me.

 

[JimGainz]

Hi,
It’s good to see that the SPM supplements help. By how much do they reduce pain ? I’m looking into buying it and it has good reviews.
I found that astaxanthin stopped my knee pain, but I’m taking 24mg BID. It works well, but less than this dosage isn’t enough for me.

I was taking 1 pill of the Metagenics brand 2x per day. The first few days I did a bit of loading and took 3x per day. I find that one pill was the equivalent to about at least 200 mg Ibuprofen in terms of pain relief without any side effects. They definitely helped with recovery and soreness - taking my pain down to a manageable level. However, they didn’t come close to what Nandrolone did.

I would recommend SPMs to anyone - especially if you are coming off Nandrolone as a way to help balance out the joint pain. They are a bit expensive - $70 for 60 pills. That’s the only downside.