Nandrolone (Deca) Base TRT Trial

[brookseth]

From what I can tell alot of the bad sideffects for both short and long term that I'm seeing talked about mostly on line are from dosing at 1:1 Test to Deca or 2:1 Test to Deca. Or just deca on its own. Not seeing alot of mention when used as a base with tiny amounts of test.
Anyone have anything to chime in against that?

 

[Belekas]

From what I can tell alot of the bad sideffects for both short and long term that I'm seeing talked about mostly on line are from dosing at 1:1 Test to Deca or 2:1 Test to Deca. Or just deca on its own. Not seeing alot of mention when used as a base with tiny amounts of test.
Anyone have anything to chime in against that?

Usually the sides come from the test and not the deca itself. Its worth to study all the material and read all the posts of deca only FB group like Taeian Clarks "The Camel Cult". He researched Deca and nutrition daily for the last 20 years and thinks "outside the box". His group is doing fine on Deca only protocols and only a small amount of men like to add a little bit of test for E2. Others prefer different ways of managing that or do just fine on Deca only. Test elevates E2 which impacts different functions of the body resulting in a lot of different side effects like for example E2 impairs bile flow thus some run into digestion problems. Also some men over time develop adrenal insufficiency which impairs Cortisol production. Also I believe over time the long-term impaired E2 effect touches the brain and cognitive functions as some men feel absolutely terrible on TRT in this aspect. Their memory goes down, word recall function goes down, speaking gets more retarded and so on and so forth. Tons of side effects nobody wants so Deca shines here. But like with everything its all trial and error. Special thanks goes to @Gman86 for intruducing me to the group. Taeian is a great dude and helped me with my digestion issues. Learned a fucking ton. I'm hardly impressed but gotta give him props for all the work he's done on Deca and Nutrition in general. Highly recommended stuff.

 

[Gman86]

So I am curious... Why is this not more mainstream? If anything it seems like this is a more efficient and effective way for therapy no? Just reading this alone makes me want to try it as well.

Just takes a long time for things to catch on. Plus I just think that most doctors aren’t willing to try many new things, even doctors that don’t take insurance and work at hormone clinics. Most doctors probably don’t have time to do research on this stuff, and just don’t come by anecdotes of people trying this with good success, since theres not much out there of guys talking about nandrolone based protocols. So most of them probably have just never even heard of guys using a nandrolone base, let alone done enough research into it to understand why and how it works as an TRT alternative. Plus, there’s no studies that I know of where they had guys on nandrolone solo, or nandrolone with small amounts of test, and trialed it to see how guys did as an HRT option. So without studies done on the topic, it’s probably gonna be rare for most doctors to be open to trialing it with their patients, I would imagine

only person that I’ve seen really dig into the research and be able to explain how and why a nandrolone base/ nandrolone solo can work, as an alternative to test solo/ a test based protocol, is Taeian Clark.

 

[Gman86]

This is interesting to say the least as I've had issues with overstimulation on test cyp only protocols, but also bloating and sleep disturbances on free test levels that no one should have an issue with. I'm looking at trying test e though first because of so much positive anecdotal feedback on that. But, where are you all getting nandrolone? I'm sure it's a prescription, but does your insurance cover it, or GoodRX coupon, etc?

I personally am with Defy and get mine compounded via Empower pharmacy, and filled through a prescription by Defy. Pay out of pocket. It’s costs me $80 for a 5ml vial of deca

 

[Gman86]

Im no expert and its new to me this protocol. Learned about it just days ago for the first time and my thought was the exact same: why isn't this mainstream?

One can reduce the amount of T injected avoiding side effects dramatically. Adding in nandrolone, get the anabolic affects you would have on much higher dose T, plus recovery from injuries and healing many other potential health issues related to inflammation such as diabetes, arthritis, bowel issues etc. It helps move glucose into muscles apparently.
If kept under 100mg week sides seem to be pretty non existent if paired with the perfect amount of T. I saw videos with doctors who has been on 200mg or more for decades and their bloodwork is fine according to them. If you listen to the videos posted by Gman86 earlier in this threat you will see how big a (old)news this potentially is.
I wonder what this would do for metabolic syndrome? NAFLD? And how many are running around injecting peptides and doing stemcells for their injuries? How many men are sitting in the couch because of their sport injuries?

So yes I just dont get it. Why isnt this mainstream?

I might be delusional and its not the potential panacea I think it is. Its news to me. but im pretty excited to try this out myself. I will go very low dose on both T and Nandrolone at first. Get to know it in my body. But would be amazing if I could end up on a 100mg/100mg dosage protocol long term without sides. Im older so have to be careful and will be happy with any improvements I can get.

Don’t think any protocol is going to a be a full blown panacea, but a dialed in and specifically tailored HRT protocol can absolutely be life changing. TRT alone has done this for thousands and thousands of males at this point. And I’ve come across many many anecdotes of guys talking about the pain relief from nandrolone, in addition to their TRT, being absolutely life changing. So long story short, nandrolone can be the missing key for some guys, but isn’t anything more spectacular than test or anything. Just another tool in our toolbox. But again, can absolutely be the missing link for some guys

nandrolone does have some very unique properties to it, compared to other AAS, which makes it a very intriguing compound, imo. I’m personally very fascinated by its versatility as well

 

[DAbears]

Love seeing this thread take off! Great talking points. BTW Gman you were right. Acne flare up has a gone down again. I ended going back to daily Deca injections and acne stopped next few days. At this point I am very curious/tempted to just drop the test all together and go Deca only. What is the potential risk/concerns with this?

 

[madman]

Love seeing this thread take off! Great talking points. BTW Gman you were right. Acne flare up has a gone down again. I ended going back to daily Deca injections and acne stopped next few days. At this point I am very curious/tempted to just drop the test all together and go Deca only. What is the potential risk/concerns with this?

Do not get me started on these clowns preaching that ND-based-only protocol bullshit!

Would tread lightly on this one.

Bad move long-term especially when it comes to bone/tendon health!

Healthy estradiol levels are needed.

ND-only protocol would never replace let alone mimic natural endogenous T.

The main reason testosterone is used for replacement therapy over nandrolone let alone any other AAS is that testosterone drugs provide a hormone that is already produced in the body.

More importantly, Ts metabolites estradiol and DHT are needed in healthy amounts to experience the full spectrum of testosterones beneficial effects on (cardiovascular health, brain health, libido, erectile function, bone health, tendon health, immune system, lipids, and body composition).


*Natural testosterone is viewed as the best androgen for substitution in hypogonadal men. The reason behind the selection is that testosterone can be converted to DHT and E2, thus developing the full spectrum of testosterone activities in long-term substitution

*Preparations of native testosterone or its esters (aromatizable T) should be used for TTh

 

[Gman86]

I dont do ********. is there any way to see his(Taeian) information elsewhere?

He has some stuff on YouTube. And a website

Homepage - TAEIAN

www.taeian.com

 

[Gman86]

Love seeing this thread take off! Great talking points. BTW Gman you were right. Acne flare up has a gone down again. I ended going back to daily Deca injections and acne stopped next few days. At this point I am very curious/tempted to just drop the test all together and go Deca only. What is the potential risk/concerns with this?

Just want to mention this, cuz I think it’s important for guys to understand. Yes, the reason test works so well as an androgen replacement, is because it converts into important metabolites, such as E2 and DHT. The reason nandrolone works just as well, when used properly, is due to it converting into metabolites that are mandatory for the male body as well. Test converts mainly into E2, as far as estrogens go. Nandrolone also converts into E2, just at an extremely low rate. However, it converts into E1 at a higher rate than test. E1 can carry out the same functions as E2, it’s just a lot weaker than E2, so it takes much more of it to carry out the same functions within the body. That’s why if a guy does a high enough dose of nandrolone, when using it solo, they can feel as good, if not better, than on test solo. It’s because their estrogens, as a whole, are enough for the body to carry out the functions it needs to feel and function optimally. The problem with this is, the dose of nandrolone a guy needs to take, when using it solo, might be too high of a total androgen load to maintain optimal health long term.

it’s the same deal with DHT. Nandrolone converts into DHN. Which activates the same receptors that DHT does, and carries out the same functions that DHT does, it’s just a lot weaker than DHT, so it takes a lot more of it to do the same job.

These aren’t negatives of nandrolone tho, these are actually it’s biggest positives. The best part about nandrolone is that it converts into weak metabolites. With nandrolone, we can keep androgens high, and metabolite levels lowish. And then decide where we want these metabolite levels to be, by either increasing our nandrolone dose, or adding in low dose test to boost E2 and DHT levels to where we feel and function at our best. Again, the best aspect of a nandrolone base is the level of control we have on these metabolite levels

So to answer ur question, I think it’s probably unlikely that 210mg of nandrolone by itself will convert into these important metabolites at levels that will have u feeling and functioning at ur best. Not saying it’s impossible. I’ve seen a few guys do well on 200-250mg of nandrolone solo. Or at least report that they feel good, and everything seems to be functioning well. Obv no idea if things under the hood cardiovascularly/ tendon/ ligament, bone and brain wise are all good or not. The guys I’m referencing that said they were doing good on these dosages of nandrolone solo just reported that they felt good, and everything sexually was functioning well. I’m just saying that I don’t think most guys would feel and function at their best on 250mg of nandrolone, or less, when using it by itself. Doesn’t hurt to try and see how it goes tho, and then obv add some test back in if the experiment doesn’t seem to be going well. I think it’s probably worth a shot to try

I just think it probably makes more sense to use a minimal dose of test with a nandrolone base, plus it just seems to be what I’ve seen work pretty consistently based on guys I know doing it, and anecdotes I’ve read online

Risks would just simply be the same as having too low of levels of E2 and DHT on TRT. Whatever those risks are, would be the same risks that using 210mg of nandrolone solo could potentially bring. All depends on how much aromatase enzymes and 5Ar enzymes u have in ur body really. Everyone has different amounts

 

[Gman86]

@DAbears glad to hear that the acne is starting to clear up btw! It only made sense that it was a temporary thing. Very glad to hear that this was actually the case

 

[brookseth]

One thing I'm seeing that is concerning for me is the issues with heightened prolactin and lowered dopamine with Deca. But is that not an issue when being used in protocols like this then?

 

[Gman86]

One thing I'm seeing that is concerning for me is the issues with heightened prolactin and lowered dopamine with Deca. But is that not an issue when being used in protocols like this then?

It’s actually the opposite lol. Well with nandrolone alone. Nandrolone by itself converts extremely little into estradiol, and therefore prolactin will be low as well on nandrolone solo, since estradiol is the main stimulator of prolactin production in the male body.

The twist is that nandrolone, when used with a compound like testosterone, will increase testosterone’s aromatization rate, aka increase the amount of estradiol that testosterone converts into. Nandrolone also sensitizes estrogen and prolactin receptors, making whatever estrogen and prolactin in the system feel more potent. So yes, if ur using 100mg of testosterone, and prolactin is say at a 10, and then u add nandrolone, it’s very possible that u will see prolactin increase, due to nandrolone causing the testosterone to convert into E2 at a higher rate, and then the higher E2 stimulating more prolactin to be produced. But the nandrolone will increase E2 and prolactin extremely little directly, since like I’ve said, it takes around 300mg of nandrolone to add 5-6 points to ur serum estradiol total. So adding in 50-100mg of nandrolone to a test base will directly add basically nothing to ur total E2 and prolactin levels. It’s only adding to these levels through the mechanism of increasing testosterone‘s aromatization rate.

so let’s say ur using a nandrolone base, with 100mg of nandrolone, and say 30mg of testosterone. The 100mg of nandrolone will have ur estradiol and prolactin bottomed out. Estradiol at <5 pg/ml, and would assume prolactin at around <5 ng/ml, at most. Most likely around 2-3 ng/ml for prolactin. But with the 30mg of test added in, that’s obv going to increase E2 and prolactin. Everyone’s obv different, but here’s some of my E2 labs when I was using a nandrolone base

4-2-20
Deca - 29 on syringe EOD (203mg/ week)
Test - 6 on syringe EOD (42mg/ week)
HCG - 150iu’s EOD (525iu’s/ week)

Ultrasensitive E2 - 24 (quest)



5-8-20
Deca - 29 on syringe EOD (203mg/ week)
Test - 9 on syringe EOD (63mg/ week)
NO HCG

Ultrasensitive E2 - 34 (Quest)





5-26-20
Deca - 29 on syringe EOD (203mg/ week)
Test - 9 on syringe EOD (63mg/ week)
1000iu’s HCG/ week (Empower)

Ultrasensitive E2 - 32 (Quest)






7-15-20
Deca - 29 on syringe EOD (203mg/ week)
Test - 9 on syringe EOD (63mg/ week)
1000iu’s SAFASI HCG/ week. 280iu EOD

Ultrasensitive E2 - 45






8-29-20
Deca - 29 on syringe EOD (203mg/ week)
Test - 12 on syringe EOD (84mg/ week)
No HCG

Total T - 780 (250-1100 ng/dL)

Free T - 167.7 (46.0-224.0)

SHBG - 39.5 (16.5-55.9)

E2 ultrasensitive - 46

Prolactin - 11.1 (4.0-15.2)

DHEA-S - 632 (138.5-475.2)

DHT - 68 (16-79)

T3 total - 116 (76-181)

T4 total - 4.9 (4.5-10.5)

Free T3 - 3.4 (2.3-4.2)

Free t4 - 0.9 (0.8-1.8)

RT3 - 14.2 (9.2-24.1) no

TSH - 0.794 (0.4-4.5)

Iron, Total - 155 (50-180)

Iron % saturation - 50% (15-60)

Iron Binding Capacity - 294 (250-425)

UIBC - 148 (111-343)

Ferritin - 49 (30-400)

CHOLESTEROL, TOTAL - 253

HDL CHOLESTEROL - 56 (>40)

TRIGLYCERIDES - 50 (<150)

LDL-CHOLESTEROL - 187

PSA, TOTAL 0.4 (<4.0)

Glucose - 98

HGB - 17.6 (13.2-17.1g/dl)

HCT - 53.9 (38.5-50.0%)Q

 

[brookseth]

I'm also reading that DHN (or also lack of DHT) can have longterm sideffects of on the brain? Would that not making this a bad idea for HRT options?

Also with that being said... Could it be a good idea to add a DHT derivative into the mix like Primo or Mast? That way your body does still get some DHT but it also wont aromatize heavy like T would?

 

[captain_j]

I currently just started trying this myself. I had switched from test cyp to test prop a few weeks back to try that out (I have low SHBG), but the PIP was starting to get to me big time. I saw this thread and figured I would give the nandrolone-based protocol a try. I do have some prescribed deca on hand, but I decided to use some NPP instead so I can abort quickly if I start having issues. If this does work out, I'll switch to deca for the long term. I'm on day number 3 now, and haven't injected any testosterone at all for the last 3 days while injecting the NPP. The test prop should have cleared my system pretty quickly, so I'm curious to see how it feels with low test and estrogen and higher nandrolone before I introduce testosterone back in. So far I haven't noticed too much difference honestly, perhaps just feeling slightly different, not in a good or bad way.

 

[Gman86]

I currently just started trying this myself. I had switched from test cyp to test prop a few weeks back to try that out (I have low SHBG), but the PIP was starting to get to me big time. I saw this thread and figured I would give the nandrolone-based protocol a try. I do have some prescribed deca on hand, but I decided to use some NPP instead so I can abort quickly if I start having issues. If this does work out, I'll switch to deca for the long term. I'm on day number 3 now, and haven't injected any testosterone at all for the last 3 days while injecting the NPP. The test prop should have cleared my system pretty quickly, so I'm curious to see how it feels with low test and estrogen and higher nandrolone before I introduce testosterone back in. So far I haven't noticed too much difference honestly, perhaps just feeling slightly different, not in a good or bad way.

Definitely keep us posted on how things end up going. Very curious to see how u do. What’s ur protocol?

 

[Gman86]

I'm also reading that DHN (or also lack of DHT) can have longterm sideffects of on the brain? Would that not making this a bad idea for HRT options?

Also with that being said... Could it be a good idea to add a DHT derivative into the mix like Primo or Mast? That way your body does still get some DHT but it also wont aromatize heavy like T would?

I mean u definitely don’t want to be deficient in any hormone long term. But I don’t think u have to worry about low DHT issues. DHN does the same exact things that dht does, it’s just like having a lot less dht than if u were taking test. But then with the low dose of test in there, it should result in plenty of receptor activation between the dhn and dht in ur system.

that’s a great question about adding a low dose of a dht derivative when using a nandrolone base. Was just reading something yesterday actually where a guy said that he thinks nandrolone solo or a nandrolone base should always be run with a dht derivative, for the exact reason that ur talking about. In theory I feel like it could be a beneficial addition. Just have to make sure u don’t drive E2 too low with the dht derivative, I would imagine. Primo being the dht derivative that has the strongest ai effects, for example.

at the end of the day I think the only way to know for sure whether it’s beneficial to add in a dht derivative, is to trial and error it urself. Stay on a nandrolone based protocol for say 6 weeks without a dht derivative, and then add in a low dose of one and see if u notice negative or positive changes.

but subjectively, when I used a nandrolone base 4 years ago, it didn’t seem like I had any symptoms of low dht. Libido was good, motivation was good, erections were excellent, felt confident. That was on 200mg of deca and then varying doses of test, from 40mg of test to 100mg. Only had dht checked when I was on 200mg of deca and 80mg of test. Dht came back at 68. So overall, I just don’t think low receptor activation by DHN/ DHT is much of a concern, when doing a nandrolone base with low dose test, or even a nandrolone base with low dose test and also a low dose of a dht derivative. Now using nandrolone solo long term, ya I can see there possibly being not enough receptor activation by DHN, and maybe causing issues long term

 

[Gman86]

So in regards to nandrolone I have a question:
It increases insulin sensitivity like crazy. By pushing glucose into the muscles.
Now one MD online mentioned it unfortunately also push glucose into the liver.
And this could worsen NAFLD(fatty liver) disease if one already has this. And/or trigger onset of fatty liver disease over time.
Anyone has any opinions/comments on this issue? Any feedback appreciated.

I’ve never heard that nandrolone can do this. Any links to vids or material talking about this?

and the only person I’ve heard say that nandrolone helps drive glucose into cells/ muscles more so than insulin is dr lichten. Not saying he’s wrong, I just haven’t heard that nandrolone does this anywhere else. So when I’m only hearing things from one source, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. At least until I see more info that reinforces the claims

all AAS help with nutrient partitioning, as far as driving nutrients and glucose into our muscles. Some more than others. So I’m not sure if they’re referring to nandrolone as an AAS having this general ability, or if nandrolone has a unique quality of driving nutrients and glucose into muscles and cells to a much higher degree than other AAS

did a quick google search and can’t find anything about nandrolone increasing liver glycogen/ increasing the risk of fatty liver disease

 

[Gman86]

Here in this video Taeian talks about its ability to push glucose into muscles much more than Test first of all:

And here is a video where this MD explains how it push glucose into the liver:

Now all this isnt something to be worried about really if you are slim. in good shape. Train a lot and use the glucose. Have large muscles to hold all that glucose. And eat a balanced diet with moderate to low amounts of glucose overall.
But, if you have metabolic syndrome nandrolone can be a really bad idea I would think.

Thanks, I’ll definitely check them out! Taeian knows his stuff when it comes to nandrolone, so i do take what he says about it into heavy consideration. Gonna watch these now real quick.

 

[Gman86]

I did message him that I thought already existing NAFLD would get worse with nandrolone. And Test as well btw. but not to same degree.
Not heard back from him yet.

Looking forward to seeing what his reply looks like

 

[Gman86]

no reply so far. just found this one. apparently 4 billion people suffer with fatty liver disease. Considering AAS promotes fatty liver by forcing glucose into the liver at an accelerated rate it might be interesting to consider adjusting the diet around it:

After watching the vids, it does sound like it’s just a general quality of all AAS. But I’m kind of confused as to what these AAS are doing specifically, vs what happens when not on them. For example, it sounds like while on AAS, glucose tends to get into the muscles easier, or the muscles can hold more glycogen, or more glucose goes to the muscles than normally, or a mix of all of the above. And once the muscles are full with glycogen, glucose then gets sent to the liver. I’m sure after sending glucose to all other cells in the body that need it.

So what happens when not on AAS? Glucose goes into all cells equally? And what happens with the excess when not on AAS? Does it get converted into fat more than it would on AAS? Does some of the excess still get sent to the liver? Just not sure if what AAS, like nandrolone, are doing, is any worse than what happens naturally when there’s excess glucose in our system