Microdosing Enanthate

[S1W]

What is your current protocol ?

36mg EOD. Though I'm considering giving cream another go.

Interestingly, cream protocols have been the only protocols that have given me both symptom relief and kept my lab numbers all in range (except DHT of course). Using injectable protocols, it seems I need to get my T levels to a fairly high level before I get symptom relief and then E2 and HCT are also elevated.

I suspect DHT may be the driver behind symptom relief for me, but I digress.

 

[JRos895]

Here's a counterexample in which a CDC-harmonized test has teenagers' range top as 785 ng/dL while for adults it's 916 ng/dL.


You follow some good advice with an oxymoron. "Very low dose therapy" implies lower-range and below-range levels. Normal-dose therapy implies mid-range physiological levels. Is Zyosted "very low dose"? Tell me there's not this skewed perspective about testosterone, in which the more-is-better mindset leads to attempts to redefine normal. You wouldn't be talking this way about other hormones. "Well I think I'll inject some estradiol so that I can be supraphysiological and maybe feel better." On the contrary, with estradiol we've seen guys fretting endlessly about higher levels and going to great lengths to restrict it to "normal" levels. Hopefully such thinking will be supplanted by an emphasis on balance. If we don't know what's optimum for us then let evolution be our guide, at least initially. Average numbers for healthy young individuals were selected over time to give the best odds of successfully procreating and raising offspring. This isn't such a bad proxy for overall success in life, given that historically you had to attract and retain a mate, as well as provide for her and the offspring.

I love this comment—particularly the “skewed perspective” about perspective you reference.

Somehow, to many men, testosterone is the only hormone/blood marker that needs to be maxed out as much as possible. It’s interesting too because many will still acknowledge that there are side effects to excess or high T like HCT and high E2. But high T they claim, is fine so long as HCT, E2, RBC, DHT etc. are in range. That is, the side effects to high T are only secondary to the T and not directly related to the T itself. Are there no side effects to T in it of itself? There must be.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Somehow, to many men, testosterone is the only hormone/blood marker that needs to be maxed out as much as possible. It’s interesting too because many will still acknowledge that there are side effects to excess or high T like HCT and high E2. But high T they claim, is fine so long as HCT, E2, RBC, DHT etc. are in range. That is, the side effects to high T are only secondary to the T and not directly related to the T itself. Are there no side effects to T in it of itself? There must be.

"tareload"—coincidentally an anagram of @readalot—referenced a book chapter that mentions direct and indirect effects of testosterone with respect to the heart.

... Among the potential mechanisms whereby testosterone affects the cardiovascular system, both indirect and direct actions have been reported. Indirect actions of testosterone on the cardiovascular system include changes in the lipid profile, insulin sensitivity, and hemostatic mechanisms, modulation of the sympathetic nervous system and renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Direct actions of testosterone in the cardiovascular system involves activation of proinflammatory and redox processes, decreased nitric oxide (NO) bioavailability, and stimulation of vasoconstrictor signaling pathways.​

 

[Fortunate]

TLDR Question: Do guys on TRT who feel cardiac stimulation eventually acclimate to this sensation?

More in-depth background behind question: I have noticed I get slight to moderate tachycardia both when my testosterone levels are dropping (ie, four hours after taking Natesto) as well as when my testosterone levels are presumed to be higher than physiologic. One of my many issues has been that with many forms of TRT, I feel cardiac "stimulation" for lack of a better word. Sometimes, I feel measurable tachycardia. Other times, my heart rate may be normal, but it feels "stronger" than normal.

The annoying thing about this is that I might otherwise feel ok. But, sensing my heart makes a bit anxious and makes me feel like something isn't right. Most recently, I was on Natesto for a while to try to clear my system. I then embarked on a low-dose daily regimen of 10mg a day. On day one, I immediately had a missing-puzzle-piece phenomenon. Like I was just missing something that I was able to recover by injecting a mere 10mg. But, on day 10, I am starting to get the cardiac awareness again.

I am willing to stick this out, but I fear this could go either way: levels build and the sensation gets worse. Or, levels build, but I simultaneously acclimate to the cardiovascular effects and eventually don't notice them.

Apparently, I am one of those guys for whom TRT has a strong beta adrenergic response. Very annoying. Is it plausible that one might acclimate? I guess I am asking for anecdotal feedback. @readalot, I know you have done a lot of reading on the TRT and the CV repercussions. What do you think? If I am sensitive now, should I expect it to persist? Worsen? Improve?

 

[Nicolasito]

As @madman said, this is not a micro-dose. I would typically mention how the 14.4 mg of testosterone is more than double the average production of healthy young men. Taking it a step further, one might ask how high this is compared to the general population. Assume the normal male daily testosterone production range of 3-9 mg represents the average plus or minus two standard deviations. This puts 14.4 mg at 5.6 standard deviations above the average. Statistically speaking, fewer than one of every four million men would be expected to produce this much or more testosterone. From this it might be argued that if there actually are any men producing this much then it's due to some pathology.

14.4 mg the dosis of T/day.
This is 100% of T, or the vol you took
From a vial. For example TE 250 give just 180 of pure T.

250/180
1.39 give 1 of testosterone
Then the 14.4 will give 10 of T.
Thank you for your explanation

 

[Nicolasito]

I listened a yt video from Jay Campbell,
A study about T from italian guy between 1985/95.
The upper was 2500!
We re in the way to decrease the masculinity and men power....
Estrogen food, perfume, fluor, porn (no fap) , 5G...
I so surprised by the quantity of young people
Who re in trt for ED...
Depopulation will rise faster than the baby boomer.

Face validity for the CDC test is very low considering it’s generally accepted that sex hormones peak in late adolescence.

It is also known that reference ranges have been consistently titrated downward to reflect what is normal for our population. As our population has become ‘bigger’, these ranges have been shifted downward reflect what is normal for people who are less lean and have a higher BMI. As such, our norm or mean has shifted downward, not necessarily reflecting what is optimal but perhaps reflecting simply what is normal for a ‘less lean’ population. For example, prior to 2017 LabCorp used the range of 348-1197 ng/dL which was obtained through the Framingham Heart Study using lean males. However, in 2017 it adopted a much lower reference range to reflect a higher BMI population’s testosterone, resulting in a range of 264-916 ng/dL. Again, that downward shift does not necessarily reflect a healthier cohort.

Evolution has been supplanted with inorganic changes that have occurred at a rapid pace. Highly energy dense foods and sedentary lifestyles leading to higher BMIs, obesity, and its associated morbidities are not a normal part of evolution. As higher BMIs have led to a population norm of lowered testosterone levels, this does not necessarily reflect healthier population, one that is to be modeled with reverence.

Many men on TRT feel great at higher levels than the statistical mean. Some experience side effects. Should some of these men explore levels at the mean? Yes. Will everyone feel their best at the mean? No.

 

[Cataceous]

14.4 mg the dosis of T/day.
This is 100% of T, or the vol you took
From a vial. For example TE 250 give just 180 of pure T.

250/180
1.39 give 1 of testosterone
Then the 14.4 will give 10 of T.
Thank you for your explanation

If you review the context you'll see that my reply was regarding the use of 20 mg of testosterone enanthate daily. Testosterone enanthate is 72% testosterone by weight. Therefore this is a daily intake of 14.4 mg pure testosterone, which is contrasted to a normal production range of 3-9 mg, with 6-7 mg being about average.

I listened a yt video from Jay Campbell,
A study about T from italian guy between 1985/95.
The upper was 2500!
...

This is either false or highly misleading. Natural testosterone levels are falling, but not to the extent this implies. You list unproven causes without even mentioning some significant factors: poor nutrition and diet, being overweight or obese, and having a sedentary lifestyle.

 

[bixt]

We re in the way to decrease the masculinity and men power....
Estrogen food, perfume, fluor, porn (no fap) , 5G...
I so surprised by the quantity of young people
Who re in trt for ED...
Depopulation will rise faster than the baby boomer.

5G, really?

Facepalm

 

[tareload]

I listened a yt video from Jay Campbell,

It's ok. Most of us have been there. Live and learn.

 

[tareload]

TLDR Question: Do guys on TRT who feel cardiac stimulation eventually acclimate to this sensation?

More in-depth background behind question: I have noticed I get slight to moderate tachycardia both when my testosterone levels are dropping (ie, four hours after taking Natesto) as well as when my testosterone levels are presumed to be higher than physiologic. One of my many issues has been that with many forms of TRT, I feel cardiac "stimulation" for lack of a better word. Sometimes, I feel measurable tachycardia. Other times, my heart rate may be normal, but it feels "stronger" than normal.

The annoying thing about this is that I might otherwise feel ok. But, sensing my heart makes a bit anxious and makes me feel like something isn't right. Most recently, I was on Natesto for a while to try to clear my system. I then embarked on a low-dose daily regimen of 10mg a day. On day one, I immediately had a missing-puzzle-piece phenomenon. Like I was just missing something that I was able to recover by injecting a mere 10mg. But, on day 10, I am starting to get the cardiac awareness again.

I am willing to stick this out, but I fear this could go either way: levels build and the sensation gets worse. Or, levels build, but I simultaneously acclimate to the cardiovascular effects and eventually don't notice them.

Apparently, I am one of those guys for whom TRT has a strong beta adrenergic response. Very annoying. Is it plausible that one might acclimate? I guess I am asking for anecdotal feedback. @readalot, I know you have done a lot of reading on the TRT and the CV repercussions. What do you think? If I am sensitive now, should I expect it to persist? Worsen? Improve?

Murphy's law would dictate it would worsen over time with aging. That being said, I have found some success using 5 mg of escitalopram daily to manage HR excursions, anxiety and panic. I am sure the TRT made this worse. Perhaps the physical symptoms are still there but I don't pay them as much attention now.

As a tradeoff, I am experiencing profound anorgasmia with the SSRI. No free lunch but I can at least train much harder now and no waking up in the middle of the night with racing heart. What we do for lean, ripped gains. Of course now the little voice in my head is telling me to up the dose. Ah, the gateway drug of TRT. Be careful what you wish for.

Forgive me Father for my polypharmacy. I have sinned.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Forgive me Father for my polypharmacy. I have sinned.

He who is without sin cast the first stone.

Not it.

 

[Nicolasito]

If you review the context you'll see that my reply was regarding the use of 20 mg of testosterone cypionate daily. Testosterone cypionate is 70% testosterone by weight. Therefore this is a daily intake of 14.4 mg pure testosterone, which is contrasted to a normal production range of 3-9 mg, with 6-7 mg being about average.


This is either false or highly misleading. Natural testosterone levels are falling, but not to the extent this implies. You list unproven causes without even mentioning some significant factors: poor nutrition and diet, being overweight or obese, and having a sedentary lifestyle.

Thank you for your explanation.The range was 1500 -2500)

 

[gerardo]

It’s hard to say because it’s all speculative because despite all the blood tests we take and measurements we have, there’s still always more that we can’t really know or measure, and hormones all interact with one another.

I think everyone should safely experiment over longer periods of time with all of them to see which they personally prefer. Anecdotally, most guys I’ve known do better and feel more normal/good when their free T is higher than some of the normal ranges, at least 25ng/dl as I recall. Definitely not the case for all of them though. I’ve struggled with low cortisol issues and some thyroid anomalies so mine’s been all over the place at the same total test dose, as well as how I felt, showing there’s a lot more going on than simply looking at some reference numbers. Thyroid’s it’s own can of worms too. I also have sleep apnea and can’t stomach a CPAP so at times some doses will make that worse despite everything else better, so there’s that consideration too.

As I recall my doctor uses a relatively small amount for himself, around 100mg a week, because he’s very sensitive to testosterone in his words. He claims to feel amazing all the time. I do better with higher amounts, though I also look like someone that probably did naturally have higher amounts and am a bigger guy. I also probably have lower DHT now since finasteride, and the higher amounts might be making up for it. We’ll see on my next tests where that’s at. I also do better with HCG, where as it makes some guys feel worse.

It’s a series of trade offs, and everyone has to experiment and find which trade offs they personally prefer while maintaining standards of good health, like your blood pressure not being 200/90 and things like that.

Hello. I know it's off topic, but this cortisol issue is important. Is your cortisol lowered with TRT? Do larger doses tend to lower cortisol more? If this happens, it would be important to replace cortisol.

 

[Keepfit1]

I’ve been on different schemes and pinned Test-E at around that amount for years. Compared to the same total Test-E amount pinned 3x a week, my E2 went down by about 5-6 points and my total t as I recall went up by about 5 points on whatever total t scale is in the smallest increments up to 25 or so for the high end of that range, mine being at like 17 I think on that scale. Water retention went down a little, and in general I felt about everything I ever felt different within the first 30 days and it was the same thereafter for a year or two. E2 was always in the 50s no matter what I did during that time. Went a little higher and lower on T and it was always 50-56ish.

Daily pinning means you’re always at a peak when testing so it can be hard to compare to testing the day after like you would on a less frequent scheme like my old 3x a week, but those were my numbers. On a different scheme now with different numbers but still pinning daily.

Cant see how daily pinning equals always at the peak, if injecting in the morning daily just test the next morning before shot, on daily shots T levels are very even , no real peaks and troughs, maybe someone has a graph to prove me wrong

 

[Fortunate]

Murphy's law would dictate it would worsen over time with aging. That being said, I have found some success using 5 mg of escitalopram daily to manage HR excursions, anxiety and panic. I am sure the TRT made this worse. Perhaps the physical symptoms are still there but I don't pay them as much attention now.

As a tradeoff, I am experiencing profound anorgasmia with the SSRI. No free lunch but I can at least train much harder now and no waking up in the middle of the night with racing heart. What we do for lean, ripped gains. Of course now the little voice in my head is telling me to up the dose. Ah, the gateway drug of TRT. Be careful what you wish for.

Forgive me Father for my polypharmacy. I have sinned.

So, the merry-go-round has me back on Natesto. It’s so perplexing why I am so intolerant of most forms of TRT. It’s not like I don’t need the damn hormone, as I feel like crap with no treatment.

 

[Keepfit1]

Correct. Unless I really get analysis detailed you are pretty much always at peak and trough on ED injection LOL.

See orange curve as example.

View attachment 26889

Nice graph but I was told by a few docs it takes about 6-8 weeks on average to get to steady saturation level on microdosing, this graph sort of shows about 30 days, not sure who is correct, any idea where the graph came from

 

[tareload]

Nice graph but I was told by a few docs it takes about 6-8 weeks on average to get to steady saturation level on microdosing, this graph sort of shows about 30 days, not sure who is correct, any idea where the graph came from

I made it. IM test E/test C has elimination half life of 4 to 7 days. Hence within ~30 days you would be within 5% of stable profile.

SubQ test E/test may have 7 to 10 day elimination half life so stable profile could drag out a little longer to 50 days.

IM profiles shown above.

Head to head IM and SubQ profiles here and more pharmacokinetic info if interested is here by the tortured "tareload" person.

 

[Keepfit1]

I made it. IM test E/test C has elimination half life of 4 to 7 days. Hence within ~30 days you would be within 5% of stable profile.

SubQ test E/test may have 7 to 10 day elimination half life so stable profile could drag out a little longer to 50 days.

IM profiles shown above.

interesting, I am on Subc so thats maybe the difference in saturation time my docs talked about

 

[mcs]

What would be a "safe" low dose starting point for someone who has hypertension and past clotting issues, both of which are being managed by meds, exercise, diet? 20mg?

 

[Cataceous]

What would be a "safe" low dose starting point for someone who has hypertension and past clotting issues, both of which are being managed by meds, exercise, diet? 20mg?

If you're talking about daily injections then 10 mg TC/TE is relatively safe, matching the average daily production of healthy young men, ~6-7 mg T. In my opinion 20 mg TC/TE per day is excessive, to the point of not being TRT. Even 10 mg per day is in theory too much for about half of all men—because it exceeds their prime natural production. You should be prepared to titrate downwards if any symptoms of excess arise.