madman
Super Moderator
You have no idea where your FT level truly sat as I highly doubt it was tested using an accurate assay.
With a whopping TT 1420 ng/dL even with your high SHBG 53.4 nmol/L I would bet your FT is very high!
You have no idea where your FT level truly sat as I highly doubt it was tested using an accurate assay.
With a whopping TT 1420 ng/dL even with your high SHBG 53.4 nmol/L I would bet your FT is very high!
madman
Super Moderator
My Most Recent Labs.
My protocol, 16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of hcg twice weekly and no AI. Pregnenolone 10 mg and 25 mg of DHEA. My last injection before labs, about 28 hr.s. Labs are from LabCorp. Testosterone, Serum 1319 ng/dL range 264-916 Free Testosterone 47.9 ng/dL range...
www.excelmale.com
SteroidPlotter can give you an idea. The time before each injection cycle looks like the last one is about the same, around 3-4 weeks, but the cycles look dramatically different.
Weekly injections:
Daily injections:
This has been a good thread. My SHBG has steadily declined over the years since I began TRT. And I have not been able to make much sense of which protocol/injection frequency works best for me. It seems to be a moving target...and I've tried a lot of different things. And my results do not always match prevailing wisdom.
One thing that works in my favor when evaluating a protocol is that unlike some guys who went on TRT to "feel good" (which is a totally valid reason, however very subjective), I went on TRT for one specific reason - erectile function. It has been effective in this regard, and that is the primary metric that I use for myself to determine whether or not TRT is working. Although there are still variations in EQ on any protocol (and among natural men with no ED issues), it is a relatively objective metric.
As I enter my 5th year on TRT (and with a shut down HPTA) I sometimes worry about what the future may bring. I know that for me, relatively high levels help with symptom resolution. But what is the trade off?
I've never truly tried a low dose daily protocol, such as 10mg/day. 12 weeks seems like such a long time lol... I've used "lower" doses, but they still have some of my numbers out of range/out of balance and are possible unhealthy long-term and ineffective. When my levels are higher, TRT is at least effective, though I suspect still possibly unhealthy long-term.
Part of this post is just sharing a few random thoughts and experiences, but one question I have for more knowledgeable members would be:
We can assume that HPTA is shut down with almost any dose of exogenous injectable testosterone. However, is it shut down "harder" when guys are running higher levels? And if so, would running these higher levels be more likely to cause long-term issues associated with HPTA inactivity than the more "normal" levels one might achieve with the 10mg/day protocol?
I've read about a lot of guys that say they feel way better on the 10mg/day protocol. Happier, healthier, more normal. And I sometimes wonder if they feel better because of a "softer" HPTA shutdown, or if such a concept is even worth considering.
*Note that at all levels, my health markers are all good on lab work. I am not referring to those issues when questioning the long-term risk of TRT. It is the difficult to measure effects of the HPTA shutdown that I'm curious about.
One thing that works in my favor when evaluating a protocol is that unlike some guys who went on TRT to "feel good" (which is a totally valid reason, however very subjective), I went on TRT for one specific reason - erectile function. It has been effective in this regard, and that is the primary metric that I use for myself to determine whether or not TRT is working. Although there are still variations in EQ on any protocol (and among natural men with no ED issues), it is a relatively objective metric.
As I enter my 5th year on TRT (and with a shut down HPTA) I sometimes worry about what the future may bring. I know that for me, relatively high levels help with symptom resolution. But what is the trade off?
I've never truly tried a low dose daily protocol, such as 10mg/day. 12 weeks seems like such a long time lol... I've used "lower" doses, but they still have some of my numbers out of range/out of balance and are possible unhealthy long-term and ineffective. When my levels are higher, TRT is at least effective, though I suspect still possibly unhealthy long-term.
Part of this post is just sharing a few random thoughts and experiences, but one question I have for more knowledgeable members would be:
We can assume that HPTA is shut down with almost any dose of exogenous injectable testosterone. However, is it shut down "harder" when guys are running higher levels? And if so, would running these higher levels be more likely to cause long-term issues associated with HPTA inactivity than the more "normal" levels one might achieve with the 10mg/day protocol?
I've read about a lot of guys that say they feel way better on the 10mg/day protocol. Happier, healthier, more normal. And I sometimes wonder if they feel better because of a "softer" HPTA shutdown, or if such a concept is even worth considering.
*Note that at all levels, my health markers are all good on lab work. I am not referring to those issues when questioning the long-term risk of TRT. It is the difficult to measure effects of the HPTA shutdown that I'm curious about.
If you’re shut down you’re shut down, so I doubt that’s why some prefer less. Thyroid suppresses, but the HPTA seems to just turn off. It’s more likely to me that since test speeds up a lot of things and processes, if you had a hole in your health bucket before more test, test will just make it worse at higher doses for some. The guys that have trouble bouncing back could just be for genetic reasons—Ronnie Coleman just started and stopped and felt no different—but also that they were truly blasting things with high end anabolics in obscene amounts. At that point I can see a lot of resistance and downregulation developing on a variety of levels because it’s truly nowhere near what your body would normally do or support. I don’t personally see TT levels from 600—1400 as really all that different in terms of long term health impact for a lot of guys because when heavy anabolic users have them they’re using far higher amounts and in more potent forms alongside. Keeping up with something like HCG can also probably affect it.
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I agree that HPTA shutdown is pretty complete in most guys even with low TRT doses. It appears that the duration of exposure to exogenous testosterone in addition to the amount are what drive it. The testosterone nasal gels put serum testosterone up to high-normal levels, but the higher levels last only for an hour or so. This leads to only minor effects on the HPTA.
You may have seen my compilation of links where guys on here talk about feeling better on lower doses. Since it's not about HPTA shutdown it could be about balance. One of the balances we talk about is the ratio of estradiol to testosterone. At least in theory this doesn't change much with TRT dose ranges that aren't extreme. However, androgens and estrogens interact with countless other bodily processes, sometimes independently of one another. In these instances the absolute levels are important. One obvious example is when excessive testosterone raises hematocrit. Now imagine if there are dozens of other processes that are thrown off in more subtle ways when testosterone and/or estradiol are too high for the individual—which can occur even if the hormones are within their reference ranges. This is why I promote a slow treatment progression from more natural to less natural: Start with nasal gel to get higher testosterone without HPTA suppression. If absolutely necessary then progress to conventional TRT at lower doses. If necessary then slowly increase the doses.
@Cataceous has got the right idea imo. Higher test and E2 effects many other processes other than HPTA shut down. Even on a low dose of test, LH and FSH are basically gonna be about zero. So I can’t see how a person can be more shut down if they raise their dose. Zero for LH and FSH is zero. It’s not like a person can have their LH and FSH levels less than zero by increasing their dose
But raising androgen levels, and therefore raising E2 and prolactin levels, can definitely effect other processes. I’m pretty sure as u increase ur test dose there’s a possibility of decreasing cortisol levels further, but not 100% positive about that. Just something to consider and look into. I’ve also heard that too high of an E2 level can effect the thyroid negatively. Women have a much greater chance of having thyroid issues than men, and I wonder if it’s due to the fact that they have much higher estrogen levels than males do. Just some other things to consider other than HPTA shut down, when increasing exogenous androgens
But raising androgen levels, and therefore raising E2 and prolactin levels, can definitely effect other processes. I’m pretty sure as u increase ur test dose there’s a possibility of decreasing cortisol levels further, but not 100% positive about that. Just something to consider and look into. I’ve also heard that too high of an E2 level can effect the thyroid negatively. Women have a much greater chance of having thyroid issues than men, and I wonder if it’s due to the fact that they have much higher estrogen levels than males do. Just some other things to consider other than HPTA shut down, when increasing exogenous androgens
T
tareload
Guest
Excellent. If I could do it over to test whether TRT was beneficial for me, your recommended approach is what I would do. Of course there will always be the illusion/delusion/mirage/wishful thinking associated with using "TOT"+other goodies as TRT for gainz in addition to "anti-aging" (aka free lunch syndrome). I learned my lesson and if you are blessed with the genetics to get away with it then good for you. The challenge is it may potentially take years for you to learn if you truly get away with it.
It ain't fun learning years later you aren't as smart as you think you are, and that the easiest person you can fool is yourself when it comes to objective thinking and experimentation.
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After experimenting a lot with Propionate, I'm not sure the issue is so cut and dry. @Cataceous has mentioned in the past the importance of the trough. On faster acting injectables like Propionate and the more extreme TNE, the decline from peak to trough can be dramatic in a single day to point where your trough could return to hypogonadal levels.
I always like the thermostat analogy for understanding HPTA. Is it possible that dipping into hypogonadal territory on a daily basis could trigger the thermostat "set point" to restart the HTPA until your next injection?
For what its worth (maybe not much), my nuts are always firmer on Prop versus Enan/Cyp where they turn to damn jelly. I've often wondered whether that is due to the trough effect. What's the practical effect? Who knows, but I feel subjectively better on Prop.
I second this. A lot of what I've learned has come through trial and error, with emphasis on the error. However much we think we know, it's still considerably outweighed by what we don't know. We can put our experiences to good use if we at least help others to avoid repeating our mistakes.
When I’ve tried things closer to more potent anabolics my cortisol went down, which for me sucks since it’s already usually too low. HCG has been found to increase cortisol and at the very least makes me feel better. All this stuff is all over the place for everyone.
Ya it sucks that there’s so much individual variability. What compounds are u referring to when u say “more potent anabolics”?
I usually run a low cortisol as well, possibly due to my naturally high DHEA-S levels. I’ve heard that as DHEA-S levels go up, cortisol levels go down. I’m currently taking injectable progesterone to try and increase my cortisol levels. The direct precursor to cortisol is progesterone, so seems like the best way to go about it. If HCG is increasing ur cortisol levels, it’s because it’s increasing ur progesterone levels. I’ll attach a pic showing the pathways I’m referring to. How many iu’s of HCG u using per week? I’m also running 1000iu’s of HCG per week on top of the injectable prog.
Attachments
Keeping this brief to avoid derailing the thread: SARMs. Pretty small amounts too, but before all this started for me and during I’ve tried for short periods to microdose them both alone and alongside HRT to see if it’d help.
Never heard the DHEA-S thing but my levels were also pretty high, so maybe I’ll look into that. I don’t think it’s as simple as just progesterone because I actually get more cortisol benefits from pregnenolone than progesterone, at least with cream progesterone as that’s all I have access to, but as with everything, we all seem to process things differently, even if on paper it all should or ‘can’ work a certain way. I’m on 750iu ish of HCG 3x a week at the moment.
madman
Super Moderator
The only option you would have in avoiding a shutdown of the HPG axis when using exogenous testosterone is Natesto due to the short-lived peaks and more importantly significant trough times.
Daily prop let alone suspension would never achieve such!
post #89/90
Advice on low dose daily testosterone
FIGURE 1 | Percent change in mean gonadotropin levels (LH & FSH), from baseline through 6 months of testosterone treatment. Nasal testosterone (blue), dosed t.i.d., adapted from (15), n = 33. Topical testosterone (orange), dosed daily, adapted from (9), n = 123. IM injectable - 100 mg...
www.excelmale.com
So 750iu’s total per week of HCG or 2,250iu’s total?
750x3 so 2250 apparently.
GreenMachineX
Well-Known Member
Those who are doing daily shots, are y'all injecting morning or evening?
Morning IM shot works the best for me, evening one cause insomnia. For SubQ it doesn't matter.
Morning SubQ. Never tried in the evening.
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