If you're talking about daily injections then 10 mg TC/TE is relatively safe, matching the average daily production of healthy young men, ~6-7 mg T. In my opinion 20 mg TC/TE per day is excessive, to the point of not being TRT. Even 10 mg per day is in theory too much for about half of all men—because it exceeds their prime natural production. You should be prepared to titrate downwards if any symptoms of excess arise.
Due to my existing hypertension and past hypercoagulopathy, perhaps I would be best advised to try a SERM (i.e. enclomiphene) before jumping to frank TRT. Thoughts?
andrepohlann
Member
10mg TE /day brings me 9,25 ng/ml. The normal range here in Germany is 2,41-8,30 at least on my report. While writing this... I took 0,75mg Finasteride with it maybe it would be lower without the supressed DHT conversion. But even 15% less would be on the upper end of normal. And this all the time.
Some years ago I felt good on 20mg/day. Was total off last summer to see what happens for 12 weeks. The only downside I feel is a lack of drive and motivation. I feel in a way old when I am off.
The million dollar question is can we compare natural levels of T production to what we supplement. I spoke with Dr Rand McLean recently and he said the level of T we measure when not on TRT is not the same as to when we are on TRT , he said we need higher levels on TRT , haven’t heard that before though.
T
tareload
Guest
Need it for what?
Anabolic drive...check.
Bigger more vascular muscles...yep.
Less sleep and interrupted sleep...ouch.
Diminished cognitive function....whoops.
Intermittent ED and alternating bouts of raging libido...that's a doozy.
If susceptible, elevated Hct and BP/RHR/WB viscosity...could be good or bad depending on your baseline.
Long term cardiovascular implications at individual level...not a clue.
Disclose objective function when clarifying what is needed or using this term optimization.
The word expert gets used quite a lot today. I don't hear the term competent nearly as much.
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SERMs are kind of unpredictable. I think short-acting testosterone would be a better bet. These include nasal gels and troches. These products do not result in complete HTPA suppression, so you can have an additive effect with your natural testosterone production. Read about Natesto, for example.
To feel optimised
T
tareload
Guest
That is what I thought "what" may be referring to. See my additional comments above. Guys, feel free to add on. I have not found that wonderful free lunch. Great if you do. Nota Bene.
That feeling of optimization comes at a high cost. After reading hundreds of posts here on side effects, I can tell you that 90% or more were due to T dose being too high. It almost always catches up to you eventually.
I wholeheartedly second this. This should be the gold standard of all TRT.
You sir have it nailed. I have also come to learn (the long hard way) it's always anabolism vs well being and feel good (all those other things you have listed, libido, cardio, cognition etc etc)
Lower "correct doses" eg. 10mg daily will have you feeling fantastic, at the expense of anabolism and muscles. High does will boost your muscles at the expense of pretty much everything else over time.
I really am grappling hard over this issue. Let me be honest. I enjoy the attention they (the muscles) bring. It's a real confidence booster when chicks turn their heads back for a second look.
I guess what I really need is a shrink and not Testosterone. My self-esteem needs to come from elsewhere.
I wouldnt say thats optimised, optimised to me is feeling right and having everything in range, obviously taking too much isnt optimised
T
tareload
Guest
I don't know. To each their own and I like your honesty. Definitely should be a legal easy way to play your hobby just like food, booze, cigs and other. Ridiculous hoops that anabolic enthusiasts have to jump through or take completely asymmetric risk to reward to go cheaper UGL route. Dumb.
I get a warm fuzzy feeling warning about TOT and AAS and at the same time defending and empathizing with all the poor body dysmorphic bastards (me included) that use them.
I have a friend who's been on clomid and adex for several years and his T land E2 labs look great and he feels great. I just don't like the possible estrogenic aspect, but that hasn't seemed to be a problem for him, so, was thinking of giving enclomiphene a shot.
If I did TE, I would be comfortable with microdosing daily subq injections. But would it suppress HPTA more than other delivery systems? Jay Campbell loves trans-scrotal gel.
Natesto has nasty nasal sides from everything I've read and heard. Have not heard of anyone using T troches.
GreenMachineX
Well-Known Member
Due to life circumstances, I've been missing 1 daily shot per week. Back when I did twice per week, getting off by a day never seemed to matter. Is this likely the case with daily shots, as long as it's only one shot missed?
Any system besides nasal gel or very short acting T would pretty much would suppress your HPTA 100%, provided the dose was = to or > than your natural output. You cannot be supressed more than 100%, and any method which results in constant average levels above your baseline will do so. As evidenced by LH = 0 on so many blood tests across forums. And obviously any dose < your natural output would serve no purpose whatsoever,
This applies to secondary hypogonadism. As @Cataceous has mentioned in other threads, primary may be a different story.
Yes, this is going to be similar. With long-acting esters the minor dip in testosterone from missing a day probably isn't perceptible.
It applies to primary hypogonadism as well. Primary has the advantage of a normal body set point for its testosterone level—the testicles just can't produce enough to reach that level. For example, the hypothalamus and pituitary want total testosterone to be 650 ng/dL, but the testicles only produce enough to give you 200 ng/dL. With TRT you can dose to get close to the desired level without seeing HPTA shutdown—you're not exceeding what the hypothalamus and pituitary are calling for.
In secondary hypogonadism the body's set point is well below normal healthy levels; the hypothalamus or pituitary is hypersensitive and isn't requesting enough testosterone from the properly-functioning testicles. So, for example, they are satisfied when total testosterone reaches 200 ng/dL, even though this isn't a healthy level. When TRT puts you over this low set point the HPTA shuts down.
There's probably no harm in giving it a try. You might do well with it. My suspicion is that enclomiphene is more likely to give good results in those who naturally produce more estradiol. I'm in that category. It makes me wonder if guys with lower aromatization could actually do better with Clomid, where you're basically adding estrogen to your enclomiphene.
Very well elucidated @Cataceous , thank you
andrepohlann
Member
Could someone specify what microdose means?
As I wrote above I feel kind of ok on 10mg, though it seems too much on my bloodpanal. I have been on TRT for at least 11 years and being 52 the idea of letting it totally go seems strange to me. I even do daily doses for many years. The older I get the harder it is to tolerate higher doses. 20mg/d was "sports-TRT" 5 years ago. Nowadays more than 10mg increases my resting heart rate by 5 beats, and decreases !! (measured by HRV (Garmin)) my recovery makes my hair fall out and my prostate swells even though my PSA stays between 0,6 and 0,75.
Everything gets better when I am off. Recover faster from training, sleep better, able to increase the load with no impact on HRV.
There are two downsides of being off: Total loss of libido (expected) and with it a loss of drive in general. I get slow and unmotivated. I was not long enough off to see a change in body composition. I am aware that it will happen long term, I will lose bone density as well and my better recovery might be only transient. It is hard to find a way out.
Very low doses like 5mg might be an option to try, bulkier doses like 30mg twice a week or 60mg once do not work well both days after injection are impacted (sleep, recovery see above). I sound like a hypochondriac
.
Things like resting HR, HRV and recovery were not measured years ago, I had no data about sleep quality as well. And to be honest I did not care.
As I wrote above I feel kind of ok on 10mg, though it seems too much on my bloodpanal. I have been on TRT for at least 11 years and being 52 the idea of letting it totally go seems strange to me. I even do daily doses for many years. The older I get the harder it is to tolerate higher doses. 20mg/d was "sports-TRT" 5 years ago. Nowadays more than 10mg increases my resting heart rate by 5 beats, and decreases !! (measured by HRV (Garmin)) my recovery makes my hair fall out and my prostate swells even though my PSA stays between 0,6 and 0,75.
Everything gets better when I am off. Recover faster from training, sleep better, able to increase the load with no impact on HRV.
There are two downsides of being off: Total loss of libido (expected) and with it a loss of drive in general. I get slow and unmotivated. I was not long enough off to see a change in body composition. I am aware that it will happen long term, I will lose bone density as well and my better recovery might be only transient. It is hard to find a way out.
Very low doses like 5mg might be an option to try, bulkier doses like 30mg twice a week or 60mg once do not work well both days after injection are impacted (sleep, recovery see above). I sound like a hypochondriac
.Things like resting HR, HRV and recovery were not measured years ago, I had no data about sleep quality as well. And to be honest I did not care.
I think it would be worth trying short-acting testosterone, such as nasal gel or troches. You might be able to get the benefits of testosterone without the problems. These products would also allow your HPTA to function normally.
An alternative is to experiment with propionate blends. These can help you to establish a diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, which is more natural, and may let you reduce the dose without loss of benefits.
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