Ditch your AI now - you don't need it!

[HealthMan]

@HealthMan if you think that SERMS eliminate all gyno I would have to say you are the ignorant one. I'd had mild gyno since I was a teen and I've tried EVERYTHING. Tamoxifen, getting lean, weight training, diet changes, lowering E2 to drastic levels... the gyno is still there. The only thing that will fix it is surgery.

Everything that goes against what you say and it's "Ignorance". You're like a horse with blinders on.

@Speed I agree with you.

@tmaxey1 it's not just the low E2!! It's the AI itself that is TOXIC!

When some of you guys start dropping dead due to AI use I hope someone resurrects this thread. AI's cause micro blisters along capillary walls. Peace!!

Can you read english? I never said SERMs can get rid of all gyno. It can successfully get rid of some (specially lump size and recent). All i said is that surgery is not the only option. Again just because something did or didn’t work for you it doesn’t mean that applies to the whole universe.

 

[HealthMan]

The only permanent solution for Gyno is a surgery, Tamoxifen is not that....
Like I said, I don't need a study to see HDL drops on any dose of AI, even if e2 is in a "healthy range"
Also, ALL of the studies that shows protective effects of TRT are WITHOUT AIs (no micro dosing here) and even if there is NO study that micro dosing is bad, you KNOW 100% (based on studies) that protective effect of T is ACTIVE in NO AI patients. Using AIs is only a guessing game, and I would use it only short term for symptom resolution like gyno or obesity before he lose fat, but ONLY SHORT TERM. Because, despite decreasing e2, AIs has side effects unrelated to blocking only aromatase

Tamoxifen works in many cases as a permanent solution for gyno (assuming of course you are not messing around with your hormones). I got rid of my gyno with tamoxifen for example. Of course it doesn’t work for everyone.

 

[HealthMan]

Now i am officially unsubscribing to this thread. My objective was just to protect other members that are not very well informed from some crazy and wrong things that were said here. That was accomplished.

 

[Speed]

Now i am officially unsubscribing to this thread. My objective was just to protect other members that are not very well informed from some crazy and wrong things that were said here. That was accomplished.

Sorry, but you did not prove your stance here that AIs are safe on TRT longterm. Not a single study was posted regarding TRT+AI

Only proof we have for now is that T ONLY is beneficial for longterm health
Blocking E2 is only a guessing game for now and that is ignorance and broscience without any study from your side. That is how you will protect people here, tell them to USE AI only short term for symptom resolution, because THERE ARE NO long term studies about it's safety as opposed to T ONLY

 

[equel]

Lol is this Jay Campbell trolling? Sounds exactly like him LMFAO

 

[equel]

Why don't any of you understand that it really doesn't matter whether or not the AI resolves your symptoms, it is still toxic to your biological systems? You're trying to fix a problem you think you have with something that is going to cause a bigger problem long term. Even just a TINY DOSE of AI.

LOL Ok now I KNOW this is a Jay-troll. he keeps repeating that shit in his videos despite there is ZERO evidence that "ai is toxic to biological systems" LMFAO, the shit u guys sperg these days.

 

[equel]

Speed and dbossa is the same person. This is most likely:

1. A jay campbell troll
2. Someone who watched his videos and got convinced, and now they gonna preach for the world.

Stupid kids these days just have zero critical thinking.


Notice how both speed and dbossa write tons of capital letters? Notice how they preach the same shit and like eachother posts? Notice how they both sound like high estrogen women?

Its the same person, do something about this.

 

[Speed]

English is not my first language. Sorry for that, if it's not clear, that is why I use capital letters to "bold" my point. Look for my posts and my TRT strugle here since 2015. Mods can check my IP and your posts has no any value, bacause it is offtopic. I showed my logic and arguments and you came here with unfounded charges against me. I am not against AIs, I am against them as part of longterm HRT.
Now, you are insulting me here on a personal basis ? I think this is against rules here ?

 

[equel]

English is not my first language. Sorry for that, if it's not clear, that is why I use capital letters to "bold" my point. Look for my posts and my TRT strugle here since 2015. Mods can check my IP and your posts has no any value, bacause it is offtopic. I showed my logic and arguments and you came here with unfounded charges against me. I am not against AIs, I am against them as part of longterm HRT

Where are the studies showing its "toxic" to keep e2 within a certain range?

 

[DragonBits]

Estrogen, I saw an internet reference that said the journal Clinical Endocrinology had published estradiol levels by age:

Age 2-29:  28.0 pg/ml
Age 30-39:  25.7 pg/ml
Age 40-49:  24.7 pg/ml
Age 50-59:  22.1 pg/ml
Age 60-69:  21.5 pg/ml
Age 70-80:  21.9 pg/ml
Not sure of the study but this info is useful when we discuss what levels are appropriate. I don't think many healthy men have natural levels of E2 at 40 pg or over.

 

[equel]

Estrogen, I saw an internet reference that said the journal Clinical Endocrinology had published estradiol levels by age:

Age 2-29:  28.0 pg/ml
Age 30-39:  25.7 pg/ml
Age 40-49:  24.7 pg/ml
Age 50-59:  22.1 pg/ml
Age 60-69:  21.5 pg/ml
Age 70-80:  21.9 pg/ml
Not sure of the study but this info is useful when we discuss what levels are appropriate. I don't think many healthy men have natural levels of E2 at 40 pg or over.

I remember Jay saying young men have estrogen of 80 LOL, that guy is just out of his mind.

 

[Systemlord]

I believe Dr Saya posted a paper a while back on men who had a natural functioning HPTA and the study noticed some HPTA suppression when estrogen was in the 40's. Now men who are on TRT may not be affected, just saying this only hints at that normal estrogen in men not on TRT may very well be below 40.

When my estrogen is in the 40's, mentally I feel like a menopausal woman and that to me is toxic. I keep hearing about estrogen, but no one is talking about free estrogen.

 

[DragonBits]

Healthman is one of the most logical members on this forum. Degrading him is just taking away from the valid points that you have in your argument. I would refrain from taking stabs at guys here, especially ones that have been here for a while. Just some friendly words of advice. Just stick to trying to get your message and anectodal experience across. That’s what this forum is here for. Not to put down others or call them ignorant.

That’s interesting about ai’s causing micro blisters along capillary walls though. I’ve never heard that one before. I really hope that’s not true. How confident are you that this may be the case?

FRIDAY, Dec. 9, 2016 -- Women on breast cancer drugs called aromatase inhibitors may show signs of early blood vessel damage that could lead to heart disease, a small study suggests.

Researchers found that compared with healthy women their age, women on aromatase inhibitors were more likely to show signs of "endothelial dysfunction." That refers to problems in how the blood vessel lining responds to blood flow.

...

Still, the study adds to evidence linking aromatase inhibitors to elevated risks of high blood pressure, high cholesterol and possibly full-blown heart disease.

Breast cancer drugs tied to blood vessel damage, heart disease

Of course, the problem is they have breast cancer and are lowering their estrogen a lot, they don't say how low, but no doubt it's very low.

 

[dbossa]

I can confirm that I am not Jay Campbell. I can also confirm that I don't know who 'speed' is other than he seems to agree with some of my points. The lack of critical thinking part makes me giggle since my entire career is based on critical thinking and I missed 4 points on my Mensa entrance exam to be accepted. In regards to language, I speak three languages fluently. Let's have a chat in French or Italian and I'm certain that will demonstrate that I am not Jay Campbell.

What I can confirm is that many of you seem to make assumptions about others without even knowing who they are. You also make claims to things you haven't even tried. Again, I was once like you. Avid AI user for 3 years plus 500iu of HCG twice a week (even tried daily HCG). I keep challenging myself, I don't stay stuck on stupid, I keep learning new things, and I try different techniques, because whatever my "BEST" is I always feel I might be able to do "BETTER". In that respect, getting off of the AI was the "BEST" thing I've done so far, with MUCH hesitation. So, I'm sharing. That's it. It's a free country. Do as you wish.

 

[equel]

I can confirm that I am not Jay Campbell. I can also confirm that I don't know who 'speed' is other than he seems to agree with some of my points. The lack of critical thinking part makes me giggle since my entire career is based on critical thinking and I missed 4 points on my Mensa entrance exam to be accepted. In regards to language, I speak three languages fluently. Let's have a chat in French or Italian and I'm certain that will demonstrate that I am not Jay Campbell.

What I can confirm is that many of you seem to make assumptions about others without even knowing who they are. You also make claims to things you haven't even tried. Again, I was once like you. Avid AI user for 3 years plus 500iu of HCG twice a week (even tried daily HCG). I keep challenging myself, I don't stay stuck on stupid, I keep learning new things, and I try different techniques, because whatever my "BEST" is I always feel I might be able to do "BETTER". In that respect, getting off of the AI was the "BEST" thing I've done so far, with MUCH hesitation. So, I'm sharing. That's it. It's a free country. Do as you wish.

Ive tried, it didnt work, at all. Uve just watched Jay videos, thats why u keep repeating the same nonsense he does, literally to its word. "Toxic to biological systems" NO ONE but jay says that, u are baiscly repeating his nonsense like a parrot.

 

[Gman86]

FRIDAY, Dec. 9, 2016 -- Women on breast cancer drugs called aromatase inhibitors may show signs of early blood vessel damage that could lead to heart disease, a small study suggests.

Researchers found that compared with healthy women their age, women on aromatase inhibitors were more likely to show signs of "endothelial dysfunction." That refers to problems in how the blood vessel lining responds to blood flow.

...

Still, the study adds to evidence linking aromatase inhibitors to elevated risks of high blood pressure, high cholesterol and possibly full-blown heart disease.

Breast cancer drugs tied to blood vessel damage, heart disease

Of course, the problem is they have breast cancer and are lowering their estrogen a lot, they don't say how low, but no doubt it's very low.

Ya I’m not buying it. I’m starting to think all studies are flawed to a certain degree. These are women that have most likely had chemo, which destroys all functions of your body for the rest of your life. I heard a statistic one time that getting chemo increases your risk of getting Leukemia by 75%. And like you said, these studies are done on women who have zero estrogen. Literally zero. The doses of ai they are out on are insanely high. So obviously there is going to be a ton of endothelial destruction when a person doesn’t have any estrogen. No estrogen is also going to wreak havoc on the cardiovascular system. So no surprise they had high blood pressure and an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. And obviously we know ai’s mess with cholesterol. So no surprise there either.

It sucks to see money wasted on such bllsht studies like this. So flawed it’s ridiculous.

 

[DragonBits]

Ya I’m not buying it. I’m starting to think all studies are flawed to a certain degree. These are women that have most likely had chemo, which destroys all functions of your body for the rest of your life. I heard a statistic one time that getting chemo increases your risk of getting Leukemia by 75%. And like you said, these studies are done on women who have zero estrogen. Literally zero. The doses of ai they are out on are insanely high. So obviously there is going to be a ton of endothelial destruction when a person doesn’t have any estrogen. No estrogen is also going to wreak havoc on the cardiovascular system. So no surprise they had high blood pressure and an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. And obviously we know ai’s mess with cholesterol. So no surprise there either.

It sucks to see money wasted on such bllsht studies like this. So flawed it’s ridiculous.

Well, for breast cancer the typical dose of anastrozole is 1 mg a day. The study was done to determine negative effects of this dosage on women.

As far as I know, anastrozole was only approved for use as an adjuvant treatment of hormone-receptor positive early breast cancer in postmenopausal women, it makes sense to only study it in those patients and at those dosages.

To take the study and attempt to apply it to men taking .25 mg (or less) twice a week is a huge stretch.

 

[Gman86]

Well, for breast cancer the typical dose of anastrozole is 1 mg a day. The study was done to determine negative effects of this dosage on women.

As far as I know, anastrozole was only approved for use as an adjuvant treatment of hormone-receptor positive early breast cancer in postmenopausal women, it makes sense to only study it in those patients and at those dosages.

To take the study and attempt to apply it to men taking .25 mg (or less) twice a week is a huge stretch.

Oh ya good point. I guess maybe it isn’t a complete waste of money. I still think it’s a ridiculous study though. Maybe even counterproductive. Because now doctors treating women with breast cancer are going to think that ai’s cause all these issues, when in reality it’s just the consequences of having zero estrogen in the body, and/ or post chemo side effects on the body.

Either way, I think it’s safe to say there’s no evidence that ai’s cause micro blisters in blood vessels. Unless there’s other studies out there showing this, that are actually valid.

 

[Speed]

Oh ya good point. I guess maybe it isn’t a complete waste of money. I still think it’s a ridiculous study though. Maybe even counterproductive. Because now doctors treating women with breast cancer are going to think that ai’s cause all these issues, when in reality it’s just the consequences of having zero estrogen in the body, and/ or post chemo side effects on the body.

Either way, I think it’s safe to say there’s no evidence that ai’s cause micro blisters in blood vessels. Unless there’s other studies out there showing this, that are actually valid.

Here is one valid on MEN

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.RES.0000115311.56442.A6#

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.res.0000103633.57225.bc

So, I know on myself also that ONLY 0.25 mg decrease HDL and increase LDL, why would I lose even 1% of protective effect of e2 while I can avoid AIs using different methods.
If you wan't to sacrifice your health , then use it... But, people here need to know facts, that AIs are not good longterm and this has nothing to do with e2 levels, but with using of this particular drug

 

[DragonBits]

Oh ya good point. I guess maybe it isn’t a complete waste of money. I still think it’s a ridiculous study though. Maybe even counterproductive. Because now doctors treating women with breast cancer are going to think that ai’s cause all these issues, when in reality it’s just the consequences of having zero estrogen in the body, and/ or post chemo side effects on the body.

Either way, I think it’s safe to say there’s no evidence that ai’s cause micro blisters in blood vessels. Unless there’s other studies out there showing this, that are actually valid.

A study could be designed.

Give a group of men an AI and exogenous estrogen at the same time. See if the AI caused a problem even when E2 levels remain above 25 pg/ml.

No one's going to do that, but that is the way it would prove something. Maybe they would try it with rats?