Managing E2 without the use of AI: Suggestions?

[cigpk]

@cigpk

have you considered any of the research liquids that are available? With 3d part testing these are quite effective. The liquid would give you many smaller dosing options.
That or making your own liquid from the tablets that you have on hand.

I’ll look into this as well. Thanks for the tip. I’ve seen them mentioned here and there with good success.

Dr Saya got back to me saying 360 ius 3x a week of hcg will be sufficient for fertility purposes (obviously no guarantees but I’ll take that) so I will run at that dose.

 

[Cataceous]

@cigpk

have you considered any of the research liquids that are available? With 3d part testing these are quite effective. The liquid would give you many smaller dosing options.
That or making your own liquid from the tablets that you have on hand.

I’ll look into this as well. Thanks for the tip. I’ve seen them mentioned here and there with good success.
...

Since you're using Defy I'd suggest compounding your own anastrozole. It's economical and gets you pharma-grade. Go to GoodRx.com and find out what the best price is at a store local to you. I'm seeing $10.90 for 30 1-mg tablets right now. Next have Defy call in the prescription for you. This will cost $30. To compound it, dissolve one table in 10 mL of vodka. Use a 1-mL oral syringe or measuring dropper to measure doses. You can squirt these into a shot glass of water or directly into your mouth to be chased with water. The nice thing about this system is that you can make doses as small as 0.01 mg or less, and with an accuracy of a few micrograms.

 

[tmaxey1]

Very big possibility there. I have considered this... I wish I had the $$ to run every blood test possible but that’s not an option for me unfortunately.

I have been able to lessen symptoms in the past with e2 in the mid 30s so that’s my target. If that doesn’t help then I will look elsewhere.

Managing all the different factors in trt can be crazy difficult, I wish there was an easy answer for me.

If your labs are measuring E2 at 20 this doesn’t mean your E2 is always at 20. It could be 30 or 35 ect 2 days before you are checked. Point being that your hormone levels will bounce around and the 20,30,40 range is all close enough that within a given week you may be at all of these levels.

I get what you are saying about lab cost. I just dropped $400 for follow up labs and $640 for follow up meds. This can get expensive.

 

[wsj357]

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

I am committed to remaining on the above protocol without an ai; I am on the HCG to preserve fertility and I know this dose has worked for me in the past for that purpose.

I was taking ZMA for sleep and the zinc, but I am worried because there is no copper in the ZMA and I have seen some worrisome things about upper limit for daily zinc intake and I already run at 40 mg a day between my multi and ZMA. Would ~~30-40mg of zinc per day be helpful/safe to lower e2?

Any other things that can help? I have seen mentions of boron, b6, zinc to lower e2. I already have very low BF. I'm asking because I have had high e2 symptoms with no ai in the past, specifically just some decreased erection quality and maybe some insomnia/feeling hot.

May I ask.

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

I am committed to remaining on the above protocol without an ai; I am on the HCG to preserve fertility and I know this dose has worked for me in the past for that purpose.

I was taking ZMA for sleep and the zinc, but I am worried because there is no copper in the ZMA and I have seen some worrisome things about upper limit for daily zinc intake and I already run at 40 mg a day between my multi and ZMA. Would ~~30-40mg of zinc per day be helpful/safe to lower e2?

Any other things that can help? I have seen mentions of boron, b6, zinc to lower e2. I already have very low BF. I'm asking because I have had high e2 symptoms with no ai in the past, specifically just some decreased erection quality and maybe some insomnia/feeling hot.

Your symptoms sound like what HCG did to me. Try less HCG more cypionate or cut out HCG and do jsut cypionate. Once dialed in slowly introduce HCG. Or only use HCG when you want fertility.

Until then ai is not good . High shbg means you will not convert at a high rate to e2 or DHT. This is why I don’t think you need to worry about e2. InsteAd the HCG could be the cause.

You are on a very low dose of cypionate to and a fairly strong dose of HCG

I would try 25mg daily or around 150 a week. If HCG is added wait 6-8 weeks before adding. This way you know what causss the issues.

Make sense

 

[cigpk]

I’ve decided to resume my Drs protocol at the following:
40 mg test 2x weekly
360 iu 3x weekly
No ai at the moment

I will have labs in 4 weeks and see where I’m at. I’ll update you all. Thanks for the advice.

I’ll be interested to see where my SHBG is because it typically runs about 55-66 (15-55 range) so that will also dictate what kind ofE2 level I can tolerate. But with that said, I’m more concerned about symptoms than numbers so if I feel good, I won’t worry about it.

 

[ryn996]

$1 a day is expensive you’re saying?

Serving size is six capsules a day. How big are the capsules? Do you space them out - 2 at breakfast, 2 at lunch, etc.?

 

[Gman86]

Serving size is six capsules a day. How big are the capsules? Do you space them out - 2 at breakfast, 2 at lunch, etc.?

They’re definitely not small, but they’re not too big. I personally take them all at once after my first meal of the day. Just put all six in my mouth, put some water in, swish them around so the capsules gets wet on the outside, and they all slide right down. You can space them out if u want though. I take them all at once for two reasons. I take thyroid meds twice a day, and you have to take them away from iron. Beef liver is either the first or second highest source of iron on the planet. So i have to time it right, in between my meds. The other reason I take it as early in the day as I can, is because it has a ton of things that can boost energy. It’s the highest source of b12 on the planet, other than I think clams. It has a bunch of b vitamins, and it probably has a few other things that can assist with energy production. So I like to get them all in at the beginning of the day if I can. But I always make sure to get them in after a meal with fat in it, to assist with the absorption of the fat soluble vitamins.

 

[joshmaximus]

Ya I’m the same way. Used to take a ton of supplements, but as I’ve learned more over the years, I realize taking anything in isolation isn’t the best idea, and getting these things from Whole Foods will always be optimal.

I do also take magnesium in isolation. The only other thing I take in isolation is vitamin D. Beef liver capsules cover pretty much everything else. I usually eat 3 egg yolks per day, which are also like nature’s multivitamin. I also eat 2-3 organic Brazil nuts per day to make sure I have my selenium covered. And for omega’s, I just eat sardines 2-3 times per week. I also eat organic hemp seeds, which have the omegas. But as far as epa and dha go, I get them from sardines and anything else I might eat throughout the week that has epa and dha in it.

And ya I understand. I think I’ve also heard that zinc, b6 and boron can lower E2. Anytime I do research on natural aromatase inhibitors, white button mushrooms always seem to be the most effective thing. So if you’re looking to lower E2 naturally, give those a shot.

Gman is there a white button mushroom extract u suggest? Will it lower testosterone too?

 

[DragonBits]

Since you're using Defy I'd suggest compounding your own anastrozole. It's economical and gets you pharma-grade. Go to GoodRx.com and find out what the best price is at a store local to you. I'm seeing $10.90 for 30 1-mg tablets right now. Next have Defy call in the prescription for you. This will cost $30. To compound it, dissolve one table in 10 mL of vodka. Use a 1-mL oral syringe or measuring dropper to measure doses. You can squirt these into a shot glass of water or directly into your mouth to be chased with water. The nice thing about this system is that you can make doses as small as 0.01 mg or less, and with an accuracy of a few micrograms.

One question, when dissolved in vodka, I assume the anastrozole dissolves but what happens to the fillers? I tried it, there seem to be a white powder at the bottom, was that anastrozole or the fillers? I was just curious, I didn't dose myself that way.

Be that as it may be, I don't think your suggest is workable.

While scientifically logical method of taking anastrozole, practically, legally and ethically I doubt any doctor would prescribe that way.

I had a similar thought, though Defy would not let me order a higher level of anastrozole than 0.125. I explained I was going to compound it myself, but they still didn't want to go that way.

I didn't press Defy as I take so little and not frequently my rough calculation was that 30 mg of anastrozole (30 x 1mg) would last me over 20 years. (ignoring self life).

Prescriptions have to have what daily dosage the doctor wants you to take. There is no way to prescribe a dangerous level of a drug in order for your patient to compound it themselves to an acceptable level.

If you could do that, can I order a kilo of raw amoxicillin so I can compound it when I need it? Any other drug?

How many patients would make a mistake in their compounding kitchen and who would they sue as a result?

If anyone wants to go that way, I suspect you need to order anastrozole without a prescription.

 

[DragonBits]

This is the best brand that I’ve found so far. Main thing you want to look for is that it comes from cows that are fed grass all year round, and are grass finishes. Want to make sure they are never fed grain. And also want to make sure the desiccating process is optimal.
https://www.amazon.com/Ancestral-Supplements-Grass-Liver-Desiccated/dp/B01MSBZYQW

My main problem with that beef liver extract is you have no idea of what level of vitamins you are taking.

The company says:

5099 IU (100% DV) Vitamin A per serving
13.6 MCG (230% DV) Vitamin B12 per serving
120 MG Choline per serving

But everything else is vague, CoQ10, Bio-Available Iron, Hyaluronic Acid, A, D, K & E is in beef liver, but how much?

Many foods are nutriment rich, it's always about how much are you getting per serving?

 

[fifty]

How many patients would make a mistake in their compounding kitchen and who would they sue as a result?

No one can do math so probably most.

If you order from peptide sites most of the stuff looks like you poured 30g of paint chips and flour into a 60ml bottle. That’s real life.

 

[Cataceous]

One question, when dissolved in vodka, I assume the anastrozole dissolves but what happens to the fillers? I tried it, there seem to be a white powder at the bottom, was that anastrozole or the fillers? I was just curious, I didn't dose myself that way.

Be that as it may be, I don't think your suggest is workable.

While scientifically logical method of taking anastrozole, practically, legally and ethically I doubt any doctor would prescribe that way.

I had a similar thought, though Defy would not let me order a higher level of anastrozole than 0.125. I explained I was going to compound it myself, but they still didn't want to go that way.

I didn't press Defy as I take so little and not frequently my rough calculation was that 30 mg of anastrozole (30 x 1mg) would last me over 20 years. (ignoring self life).

Prescriptions have to have what daily dosage the doctor wants you to take. There is no way to prescribe a dangerous level of a drug in order for your patient to compound it themselves to an acceptable level.

If you could do that, can I order a kilo of raw amoxicillin so I can compound it when I need it? Any other drug?

How many patients would make a mistake in their compounding kitchen and who would they sue as a result?

If anyone wants to go that way, I suspect you need to order anastrozole without a prescription.

The fillers and binders may settle to the bottom, though presumably most of the anastrozole is in solution. To be safe it's good to agitate the solution before drawing the dose in case any anastrozole remains trapped in the solids.

It may be that Defy is reluctant to prescribe medicine that is already compounded for use in further compounding. Alternatively they are judging it on a case-by-case basis.

Substances such as anastrozole and amoxicillin are not particularly toxic if you happen to overdose. Interesting that you mention amoxicillin, as I buy the OTC variety intended for fish and compound it for use with a feline. It's effective and a fraction of the cost of the version the vet sells.

 

[MRX]

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

I am committed to remaining on the above protocol without an ai; I am on the HCG to preserve fertility and I know this dose has worked for me in the past for that purpose.

I was taking ZMA for sleep and the zinc, but I am worried because there is no copper in the ZMA and I have seen some worrisome things about upper limit for daily zinc intake and I already run at 40 mg a day between my multi and ZMA. Would ~~30-40mg of zinc per day be helpful/safe to lower e2?

Any other things that can help? I have seen mentions of boron, b6, zinc to lower e2. I already have very low BF. I'm asking because I have had high e2 symptoms with no ai in the past, specifically just some decreased erection quality and maybe some insomnia/feeling hot.

I'd much rather do a kiss of masteron than an AI
50mg a week does the trick for me
E2 and BW is optimal
The constant sore right nip has long vanished as well as the moodiness from elevated E2

Arimidex is horrible stuff for me, feels like I'm on an anti depressant and has crashed me before. Never again

 

[edward]

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

I am committed to remaining on the above protocol without an ai; I am on the HCG to preserve fertility and I know this dose has worked for me in the past for that purpose.

I was taking ZMA for sleep and the zinc, but I am worried because there is no copper in the ZMA and I have seen some worrisome things about upper limit for daily zinc intake and I already run at 40 mg a day between my multi and ZMA. Would ~~30-40mg of zinc per day be helpful/safe to lower e2?

Any other things that can help? I have seen mentions of boron, b6, zinc to lower e2. I already have very low BF. I'm asking because I have had high e2 symptoms with no ai in the past, specifically just some decreased erection quality and maybe some insomnia/feeling hot.

The ratio of zinc to copper should be ~10:1. If you’re taking a MVI, check the amount of copper in it. For zinc 40mg, the intake of copper should be ~4mg. If the MVI has less copper than 4mg, then it should be supplemented accordingly. It’s my understanding that zinc is only effective in this respect for men with a zinc deficiency.

 

[junglejim2612]

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

I am committed to remaining on the above protocol without an ai; I am on the HCG to preserve fertility and I know this dose has worked for me in the past for that purpose.

I was taking ZMA for sleep and the zinc, but I am worried because there is no copper in the ZMA and I have seen some worrisome things about upper limit for daily zinc intake and I already run at 40 mg a day between my multi and ZMA. Would ~~30-40mg of zinc per day be helpful/safe to lower e2?

Any other things that can help? I have seen mentions of boron, b6, zinc to lower e2. I already have very low BF. I'm asking because I have had high e2 symptoms with no ai in the past, specifically just some decreased erection quality and maybe some insomnia/feeling hot.

 

[junglejim2612]

Sounds like you don't need to have your E2 lowered. I'm running twice your dose without AIs and I feel great! Drop them for a 3 month cycle (or until your next labs) and see how you feel. AIs are not an automatic necessity.

 

[theoneguy]

I also ditched the AI and was also an over responder to adex. I feel so much better without the AI and if possible will never take one again, I am trying DIM right now and see how that goes with the HCG but without the HCG and just TEST E i was around 25 for my E2 taking 110mg test total weekly but in 3x weekly injections.

 

[jcmaxwell]

I am on the following:
-40 mg test-c 2x weekly
-500 iu HCG 2x weekly

I recently discontinued my ai as it makes me feel very bad even at just .125 mg and brings my e2 to low 20s. I have a high SHBG, historically around 55-65 (15-55) and my Total T runs around 1100 with free T anywhere between 17-23 (7-26).

I am committed to remaining on the above protocol without an ai; I am on the HCG to preserve fertility and I know this dose has worked for me in the past for that purpose.

I was taking ZMA for sleep and the zinc, but I am worried because there is no copper in the ZMA and I have seen some worrisome things about upper limit for daily zinc intake and I already run at 40 mg a day between my multi and ZMA. Would ~~30-40mg of zinc per day be helpful/safe to lower e2?

Any other things that can help? I have seen mentions of boron, b6, zinc to lower e2. I already have very low BF. I'm asking because I have had high e2 symptoms with no ai in the past, specifically just some decreased erection quality and maybe some insomnia/feeling hot.

My functional and restorative medicine doctor recommends Estro Block Pro to maintain healthy estradiol levels. Developed by Dr. Nick Delgrado, "Estro Block Pro (triple strength) is designed to support the clearing of toxic estrogens, while supporting the production of healthy estrogens. Estro Block Pro (vs. Estro Block) contains 50% more of Diindolylmethane (DIM),the correct balance ofIndole-3-Carbinol, Sunflower Lecithin Powder, and Phosphatidylcholine, as well as 3 new ingredients: Wasabi root powder, Chrysin, and D-Glucuranolactone and Vitamin E (as alpha tocopheryl succinate)."[1]

[1] http://www.delgadonaturals.com/estro-block-pro

 

[tripinginoregon]

Don't mean to sound dumb, but what is ai?

 

[cigpk]

The ratio of zinc to copper should be ~10:1. If you’re taking a MVI, check the amount of copper in it. For zinc 40mg, the intake of copper should be ~4mg. If the MVI has less copper than 4mg, then it should be supplemented accordingly. It’s my understanding that zinc is only effective in this respect for men with a zinc deficiency.

Yup. I dropped ZMA and now take OptiZinc from source naturals. 30 mg zinc, 3 mg copper.

MV has 11 mg zinc, 1 mg copper.