Deca (nandrolone) added to trt and wow!!

[DrFeelgood]

When on trt the most commonly prescribed injectable esterified T is enanthate or cypionate.

As we know when starting trt or increasing/decreasing dose .....T levels are in FLUX during the following weeks leading up to when blood levels have stabilized.....as it will take roughly 5-6 weeks due to the enanthate or cypionate ester.....let alone 2-3 months at the new levels for the body to truly adjust.

When adding nandrolone decanoate to a trt regime it will take longer for blood levels to stabilize due to the decanoate ester.

Testosterone enanthate: 7-carbon ester side-chain
Testosterone cypionate: 8-carbon ester side-chain
Nandrolone decanoate: 10-carbon ester side-chain
Testosterone undecanoate: 11-carbon ester side-chain

Testosterone undecanoate has the longest duration of action and blood levels take much longer to stabilize compared to the enanthate or cypionate ester.

He is only 5 weeks in.....some what pointless to test lipids or hemoglobin/hematocrit at such time.....I would give it 8-12 weeks before testing bloods to truly gauge whether said dose/injection frequency has any impact on possibly lowering ones HDL or increasing hemoglobin/hematocrit.

It has been shown that when using higher doses of nandrolone as in 200 mg/week it can lower HDL and it has been shown that lower doses of 100 mg/week can increase hemoglobin/hematocrit.....but it is not a given as it comes down to how the individual responds to testosterone/AAS.

Short term use as in 5 weeks is minimal.....will be much more interesting to see blood work at the 8-12 week mark.

Regarding increased hemoglobin/hematocrit which is common on trt.....levels will increase within the first 1-3 months and can take up to 9-12 months to reach peak levels.

Longer use of higher doses of nandrolone would most likely have the same impact.

Good stuff, madman thank you. I have trouble finding many downsides of nandrolone at therapeutic dosages. Many of the HRT doses are arguably not therapeutic - granted we all have symptoms of varying degrees, so that is expected. Yes, it is suppressive but many of us look to TRT as a long term plan. Yes, it will impact HDL but this is dose/person specific as much as diet and genetics.

The "study" that found nandrolone to be 11x more damaging to blood vessels?! I don't even see comparative dosages in that study.. were the doses equal to Test C/E/P? Please comment if someone has the doses or a respectable link to that study. What we do know is that nandrolone was not typically prescribed at the dosages we see for TRT - at least in a clinical setting and when it was more widely prescribed.

On the other hand, when researching long-term AAS use for performance or otherwise, one may find an interview with Louie Simmons of Westside Barbell who claims to have never cycled steroids and has been "on" since 1970. He specifically mentioned laurabolin as one of his preferred anabolics which is a slower-release ester (as in slower than deca). The interview was dated in 1998 but he's said as recently as 2016 that he's been on anabolics since 1970!

The Anabolic Doc, MD Thomas O'Connor, treats many (former and current) AAS users in the powerlifting/bodybuilding communities and he has started asking for study participants. Perhaps one day the rest of the medical community will regain their senses and begin studying some of these compounds.

 

[SilverSurfer]

SS, thanks for your contributions to this thread. Question: Did you experience any fluctuation in your HDL/LDL numbers after the first 5 weeks? I've read the HDL/LDL ratio is a primary factor in plaque buildup whereas total cholesterol is a sum of "good" + "bad" (debatable how "bad" LDL really is.. Tris are a different story).

We know that AAS cause a shift in HDL but impact is dose dependent. Any notable shift in your HDL so far?

If Nelson reads this, was your HDL always in normal range when you supplemented with Deca at 100 mg/wk?

My HDL went from 37 down to 35 with 40 - 60 as normal. I looked at my past 12 years of bloodwork and it’s always has been low to mid 30s.

 

[Sly]

I so want to try Deca. Joints so bad and don’t want to go on pain killers. Pretty sad when it’s easier to get OxyContin than Deca.

 

[Gman86]

I so want to try Deca. Joints so bad and don’t want to go on pain killers. Pretty sad when it’s easier to get OxyContin than Deca.

Ya I agree, it’s sad that most practitioners have these tools at their disposal, yet they choose not to use them due to the stigma of certain compounds.

seems like more doctors are becoming progressive and starting to implement nandrolone in their protocols though. Defy seems to be using it more than they used to, and hormone health and wellness also prescribes it. Dr Lichten is also a huge fan of it and prescribes it.

 

[Paul M]

I think nandrolones association with enhancing athletic performance and its widespread use in bodybuilding deters many doctors. The studies of nandralone hardly help. I was reading one yesterday where rats were given 10mg per 1kg of bodyweight 3 x weekly with an outcome that wasn't ideal. That would be for me 2500mg weekly. I'm currently on 80mg weekly which is 31 times lower dose. Bit of a difference.

 

[Gman86]

I think nandrolones association with enhancing athletic performance and its widespread use in bodybuilding deters many doctors. The studies of nandralone hardly help. I was reading one yesterday where rats were given 10mg per 1kg of bodyweight 3 x weekly with an outcome that wasn't ideal. That would be for me 2500mg weekly. I'm currently on 80mg weekly which is 31 times lower dose. Bit of a difference.

Thank you. Really not sure why some guys can’t grasp the fact that bodybuilding doses of deca and therapeutic doses of deca, might as well not even be the same compound. The results are COMPLETEY different. If high doses effect the cardiovascular system in a negative way, that tells us literally zero about what it will do to the cardiovascular system at therapeutic doses. But for some reason, they think that you will get the same results when lowering the dose, just less of that specific effect.

 

[eyeheartny]

I think nandrolones association with enhancing athletic performance and its widespread use in bodybuilding deters many doctors. The studies of nandralone hardly help. I was reading one yesterday where rats were given 10mg per 1kg of bodyweight 3 x weekly with an outcome that wasn't ideal. That would be for me 2500mg weekly. I'm currently on 80mg weekly which is 31 times lower dose. Bit of a difference.

Just as a heads up, it's not a 1:1 conversion from animal doses to human. There's a concept called HED (human equivalent dose) that you should read up on. Here's an FDA link. HED is calculated by the following formula: HED = animal dose in mg/kg x (animal weight in kg/human weight in kg) ^0.33. The FDA provides a baseline at a 60kg human with the following values:

So for the 10mg/kg study you mention, the HED for a 60kg person is 1.6mg/kg or 288mg weekly (assuming a 3x/week dose as you mention). For me at 97kgs, I get a HED of 1.89mg/kg or 549mg/week. So your dose is definitely lower, but not 31 times lower.

 

[Paul M]

Whichever way you work it out, the rat was being injected with 30mg per week of nandrolone (assuming it weighed around 1kg). A massive dose for a rat in my eyes and not even comparable to the highest bodybuilding doses of nandrolone.
Unless of course animals and rodents are not affected as much by these drugs and require higher doses to reach the same effect a human would encounter.

 

[eyeheartny]

Whichever way you work it out, the rat was being injected with 30mg per week of nandrolone (assuming it weighed around 1kg). A massive dose for a rat in my eyes and not even comparable to the highest bodybuilding doses of nandrolone.
Unless of course animals and rodents are not affected as much by these drugs and require higher doses to reach the same effect a human would encounter.

I don’t disagree with the principle of what you’re saying. And I’m not advocating against nandrolone! I have some coming to me next week from Empower and I am eager to see how my experience is with it. My whole point here is to add to the knowledge of this forum with a data point that is helpful and extends our collective understanding of how to interpret studies. I do think it is relevant to understand how scientists calculate dosage equivalents. If you’re not open to that, whatever. But it’s simply not accurate to say that the rats at 10mg/Kg were dosed higher than bodybuilding doses. At a 90kg person, the dosages were well within bodybuilding ranges.

 

[SilverSurfer]

I think nandrolones association with enhancing athletic performance and its widespread use in bodybuilding deters many doctors. The studies of nandralone hardly help. I was reading one yesterday where rats were given 10mg per 1kg of bodyweight 3 x weekly with an outcome that wasn't ideal. That would be for me 2500mg weekly. I'm currently on 80mg weekly which is 31 times lower dose. Bit of a difference.

Given the opioid epidemic I think most doctors are loathe to RX DEA scheduled medications that have a history of abuse. The scheduling system in the USA makes no sense whatsoever when it comes to addiction profiles.

 

[eyeheartny]

Given the opioid epidemic I think most doctors are loathe to RX DEA scheduled medications that have a history of abuse. The scheduling system in the USA makes no sense whatsoever when it comes to addiction profiles.

I had a similar conversation with my wife last night when I was telling her about Defy prescribing nandrolone to me. I told her I was both surprised and delighted and she asked why I was surprised. I explained that testosterone and related anabolic androgenic compounds are treated similarly to opioids when they are not remotely comparable in terms of risk, harm, etc. Considering we can buy enough Tylenol to easily to blow our livers out at the grocery store, the crackdown over anabolics is absurd. Considering also how dangerous benzodiazepines are, it’s ridiculous that those are available in every pharmacy in the country but getting AAS is so tough. But anyway.

The original purpose of my post was to see how others are doing on nandrolone. Would love to hear experiences both good and bad.

 

[Gman86]

I don’t disagree with the principle of what you’re saying. And I’m not advocating against nandrolone! I have some coming to me next week from Empower and I am eager to see how my experience is with it. My whole point here is to add to the knowledge of this forum with a data point that is helpful and extends our collective understanding of how to interpret studies. I do think it is relevant to understand how scientists calculate dosage equivalents. If you’re not open to that, whatever. But it’s simply not accurate to say that the rats at 10mg/Kg were dosed higher than bodybuilding doses. At a 90kg person, the dosages were well within bodybuilding ranges.

Hopefully you stick around here. You have a great way of looking at things, and a great knowledge level, and can really contribute a lot to this forum. Can’t wait to see how you feel on your upcoming protocol.

 

[Paul M]

I don’t disagree with the principle of what you’re saying. And I’m not advocating against nandrolone! I have some coming to me next week from Empower and I am eager to see how my experience is with it. My whole point here is to add to the knowledge of this forum with a data point that is helpful and extends our collective understanding of how to interpret studies. I do think it is relevant to understand how scientists calculate dosage equivalents. If you’re not open to that, whatever. But it’s simply not accurate to say that the rats at 10mg/Kg were dosed higher than bodybuilding doses. At a 90kg person, the dosages were well within bodybuilding ranges.

What you have unearthed is indeed enlightening for the forum. Everyone as far as I am concerned was under the impression that these labs animals were being given massive doses not in keeping with equivalent human doses. I just take anything the scientific community do with a pinch of salt as many of these studies aren't as black and white as they seem to be, considering they are usually funded by groups with their own agenda.

 

[Paul M]

Anyway, enjoy the nandrolone. It has had a massive impact on my well-being. I feel 20 years younger at 80mg weekly.

 

[Gman86]

Anyway, enjoy the nandrolone. It has had a massive impact on my well-being. I feel 20 years younger at 80mg weekly.

Im sure you’ve already posted this info, but do you mind recapping quickly? How long have you been using deca, what’s your testosterone dose, and did you have to lower your testosterone dose when adding the deca? Thanks

 

[Paul M]

Currently on 50mg of Enanthate E4D and added the 80mg of nandrolone around 10 months ago. I inject the 80mg of nandrolone E8D. I was on 50mg of Enanthate E3.5D prior to adding the nandrolone. Also take 300IU of HCG E4D.

 

[Gman86]

Currently on 50mg of Enanthate E4D and added the 80mg of nandrolone around 10 months ago. I inject the 80mg of nandrolone E8D. I was on 50mg of Enanthate E3.5D prior to adding the nandrolone. Also take 300IU of HCG E4D.

Awesome, thanks. Any labs on this current protocol?

 

[Paul M]

Labs are due in next week. Will post them here.

 

[eyeheartny]

Anyway, enjoy the nandrolone. It has had a massive impact on my well-being. I feel 20 years younger at 80mg weekly.

That is so great to hear. I’ll be sure to post about my experience and hope you’ll keep us updated on yours as well.

Incidentally, I came across a study I’ll post later about nandrolone improving glucose tolerance in a human trial. Interestingly, testosterone did not have any effect on glucose tolerance. The effects nandrolone had were not at all trivial. I don’t have an issue with glucose tolerance myself but I will be curious to see if the kind of food I can eat and maintain/improve my body composition will change. Maybe more carbs?

What you have unearthed is indeed enlightening for the forum. Everyone as far as I am concerned was under the impression that these labs animals were being given massive doses not in keeping with equivalent human doses. I just take anything the scientific community do with a pinch of salt as many of these studies aren't as black and white as they seem to be, considering they are usually funded by groups with their own agenda.

Totally agree that research often has an agenda. And at the same time, as we educate ourselves we gain some independence from those same forces that seek to push an agenda. As an example, I was discussing some of these animal studies on a different forum and a user indicated that the testosterone dosages were not that high by bodybuilding standards. When I did the HED calculation it was the equivalent of 1 gram per week of T for someone of my size. I don’t even want to imagine what I’d feel like on a gram of testosterone per week.

 

[Gman86]

That is so great to hear. I’ll be sure to post about my experience and hope you’ll keep us updated on yours as well.

Incidentally, I came across a study I’ll post later about nandrolone improving glucose tolerance in a human trial. Interestingly, testosterone did not have any effect on glucose tolerance. The effects nandrolone had were not at all trivial. I don’t have an issue with glucose tolerance myself but I will be curious to see if the kind of food I can eat and maintain/improve my body composition will change. Maybe more carbs?



Totally agree that research often has an agenda. And at the same time, as we educate ourselves we gain some independence from those same forces that seek to push an agenda. As an example, I was discussing some of these animal studies on a different forum and a user indicated that the testosterone dosages were not that high by bodybuilding standards. When I did the HED calculation it was the equivalent of 1 gram per week of T for someone of my size. I don’t even want to imagine what I’d feel like on a gram of testosterone per week.

Interesting. I’ve heard many stories of guys completely getting off of their type 2 diabetes medications and insulin by going on TRT. I thought it improves insulin sensitivity? So you’re saying straight testosterone has no positive effects on glucose metabolism, but nandrolone does?