Dialed in on Testosterone Propionate, How to Switch to Cypionate

[Systemlord]

Cypionate is "gentler" for lack of a better word.

This is opposite to how my body responds. I need those big fluctuations over the course of hours rather than days.

I have two labs showing am and pm natural levels. My early morning TT 438 ng/dL, FT 8.4 ng/dL and late afternoon TT 103 ng/dL, FT 1.89.

This is with a 33-37 SHBG level.

 

[BadassBlues]

I'll bet it has something to do with daily injections, which can get old after a few years.

I assumed that, it does get old after a while. I go through cycles of multiple daily injections with peptides. It's nice to take a break from being a pincushion from time to time.

With that said, I am about to start a 10 day Epithalon course next week. This along with daily peptides. I keep Easy Touch in business...

 

[BadassBlues]

This is opposite to how my body responds. I need those big fluctuations over the course of hours rather than days.

I have two labs showing am and pm natural levels. My early morning TT 438 ng/dL, FT 8.4 ng/dL and late afternoon TT 103 ng/dL, FT 1.89.

Sorry buddy, I'm not understanding. Big fluctuations would be more in line with Propionate. Did I misunderstand you?

 

[Systemlord]

Sorry buddy, I'm not understanding. Big fluctuations would be more in line with Propionate. Did I misunderstand you?

I'm all natural. I was referring Jatenzo if someone needed TRT.

 

[BadassBlues]

I'm all natural. I was referring Jatenzo is someone needed TRT.

Ahhh... I have absolutely no experience with any oral forms.

 

[Jerajera]

interesting, the anxiety is most likely from e2. i had similar issues with hcg /prop in the past, but more at like 2k IU dosing. way i knew its e2 is that by taking anastrazole 0.25mg it all left within 6h or so. i learned that hcg doesn't do a whole lot above 3x500IU for me

Definitely E2, I agree. Never had an actual panic attack in my life until the Prop + hCG combo though, it was quite the experience.
I think if I can ever get my hands on some DHT, running Test P + DHT gel/cream might be an amazing protocol.

 

[Cataceous]

1) Madman is correct on many things, but not the effects of ester.
...

I think it's more a matter of semantics. It is true that esters slow the release of testosterone, and that once released from the esters the testosterone molecules are indistinguishable from others, regardless of source. I do not believe @madman is arguing that differing pharmacokinetics do not cause distinguishable macroscopic effects. Even with a single ester it is trivially obvious that the pharmacokinetics affect function. For example, compare injecting 200 mg of testosterone cypionate once every two weeks to injecting it daily in divided doses.

 

[lebroseixoife]

I'll bet it has something to do with being a daily pincushion for life.

There's always Kyzatrex.

Exactly. If I can do E7D or even E5D and get the same/similar results, then why not? Why would you have to do ED if it will work the other way? Well, gotta try and see once I get dialed in.

 

[Forty2]

Definitely E2, I agree. Never had an actual panic attack in my life until the Prop + hCG combo though, it was quite the experience.
I think if I can ever get my hands on some DHT, running Test P + DHT gel/cream might be an amazing protocol.

Have you tried trans-scrotal testosterone gel?
If so, how did it make you feel?

 

[Jerajera]

Have you tried trans-scrotal testosterone gel?
If so, how did it make you feel?

That's what I'm on right now, 4 clicks/day (200mg/day) in the morning. Best protocol I've ever been on for sure across the board; mental energy, libido, mental clarity, confidence, etc...

If I try to split the dose twice/day though I don't feel nearly as good; for me at least, having a significant trough makes a very big difference. Probably from less HPGA suppression, perhaps less downregulation of dopamine receptors, things along those lines. I've never felt good on super stable protocols.

I do need to supplement neurosteroids in order to have full cognitive function and energy on TRT regardless of protocol, and I'm still in the process of fine tuning that, but even just on once/day scrotal cream without anything else I feel better than on any other protocol by far.

 

[Forty2]

That's what I'm on right now, 4 clicks/day (200mg/day) in the morning. Best protocol I've ever been on for sure across the board; mental energy, libido, mental clarity, confidence, etc...

If I try to split the dose twice/day though I don't feel nearly as good; for me at least, having a significant trough makes a very big difference. Probably from less HPGA suppression, perhaps less downregulation of dopamine receptors, things along those lines. I've never felt good on super stable protocols.

I do need to supplement neurosteroids in order to have full cognitive function and energy on TRT regardless of protocol, and I'm still in the process of fine tuning that, but even just on once/day scrotal cream without anything else I feel better than on any other protocol by far.

What are your peak and trough levels of testosterone and DHT and how long after application do you feel your best?

 

[Pnw0031]

That's what I'm on right now, 4 clicks/day (200mg/day) in the morning. Best protocol I've ever been on for sure across the board; mental energy, libido, mental clarity, confidence, etc...

If I try to split the dose twice/day though I don't feel nearly as good; for me at least, having a significant trough makes a very big difference. Probably from less HPGA suppression, perhaps less downregulation of dopamine receptors, things along those lines. I've never felt good on super stable protocols.

I do need to supplement neurosteroids in order to have full cognitive function and energy on TRT regardless of protocol, and I'm still in the process of fine tuning that, but even just on once/day scrotal cream without anything else I feel better than on any other protocol by far.

What else are you taking on your protocol?

 

[Jerajera]

What are your peak and trough levels of testosterone and DHT and how long after application do you feel your best?

I haven't gotten labs on this protocol but I got labs on 3 clicks (150mg/day) of cream on the scrotum. Peak FT was 40-45ng/dL, trough 18ng/dL. Peak DHT ~500ng/dL, didn't test trough for DHT.

On 4 clicks, I'm expecting everything to be slightly higher (but definitely not 33% higher, maybe 15-20% at most because limited surface area, etc...) but don't really care to test anymore. All health parameters were great on 3 clicks, I don't expect that to change.

When I initially started this protocol I would feel a peak of libido and aggression 2-3 hours post application and around 8-9pm would start feeling a little more mellow (but still with good energy).
Over time though, I feel less and less of a difference throughout the day.

I also notice that after ~10 days without fail I'll start dropping a ton of water and start feeling a lot more masculine (ambition, drive, libido, etc...), which is when I assume DHT is starting to fully antagonize E2.
You do have to give protocols some time, even with short/no ester(s).

 

[Jerajera]

What else are you taking on your protocol?

That's it, some combo of Preg/DHEA. Best I felt was 5mg/day SR micronized Preg from Empower with 12.5mg/day topical DHEA from another compounding pharmacy.
On that protocol my cognitive function felt amazing. Memory, executive function, creativity, etc...

Empower doesn't make 5mg Pregnenolone caps anymore though for some reason, so I'm testing a few different things now, including topical Pregnenolone, oral DHEA, etc...

 

[Derek Yeeter]

If you wanted to calculate a smooth transition from cyp to prop, see the screenshot for an example of gradually tapering the prop dosage up every week as the cyp ester clears, in the effort to maintain your target blood concentration range

Keep in mind this example assumes an initial cyp protocol of 70mg twice weekly (140mg/week). You'd want to adjust these dosages in your calculations to match whatever your current protocol/target concentration is.

 

[Forty2]

I haven't gotten labs on this protocol but I got labs on 3 clicks (150mg/day) of cream on the scrotum. Peak FT was 40-45ng/dL, trough 18ng/dL. Peak DHT ~500ng/dL, didn't test trough for DHT.

On 4 clicks, I'm expecting everything to be slightly higher (but definitely not 33% higher, maybe 15-20% at most because limited surface area, etc...) but don't really care to test anymore. All health parameters were great on 3 clicks, I don't expect that to change.

When I initially started this protocol I would feel a peak of libido and aggression 2-3 hours post application and around 8-9pm would start feeling a little more mellow (but still with good energy).
Over time though, I feel less and less of a difference throughout the day.

I also notice that after ~10 days without fail I'll start dropping a ton of water and start feeling a lot more masculine (ambition, drive, libido, etc...), which is when I assume DHT is starting to fully antagonize E2.
You do have to give protocols some time, even with short/no ester(s).

Do you mean 40-45 nmol/lL peak and 18 nmol/L trough?

You mentioned that hCG made you feel worse.
I've seen that most guys using trans-scrotal cream are not taking hCG.
Personally, I felt better when I added hCG to test enanthate.
I wonder if I'd also feel good on cream plus hCG or is there something about the cream that makes most guys feel worse when they add hCG?

 

[Jerajera]

Do you mean 40-45 nmol/lL peak and 18 nmol/L trough?

No, those are Free T numbers. Total T I think was 13-1400ng/dL for peak and maybe ~700ng/dL for trough, I don't really pay attention to Total T much.

I can tell you though that my SHBG is much lower on cream because my Total T to Free T ratio is very significantly lower.
This makes sense because DHT has the strongest binding affinity with SHBG, which you see also when using DHT derivatives (Primo, Masteron, Anavar, etc...).

You mentioned that hCG made you feel worse.

Initially it makes me feel great with amazing cognitive function, mood, libido, etc...eventually though I always aromatize way too much on it.

I've seen that most guys using trans-scrotal cream are not taking hCG.
Personally, I felt better when I added hCG to test enanthate.
I wonder if I'd also feel good on cream plus hCG or is there something about the cream that makes most guys feel worse when they add hCG?

I don't think there's anything about the cream that would make hCG feel worse; if anything I would expect the higher DHT levels to antagonize (some of) the extra E2 from hCG and to feel better than on injections + hCG.

I think cream (and shorter esters in general) lead to less suppression of the HPGA which in turn makes hCG less of a requirement.
That said, even on cream for me at least there's still a need for hCG and/or neurosteroid supplementation if I want to have full cognitive function.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I do need to supplement neurosteroids in order to have full cognitive function and energy on TRT

Yeah, I'm coming around to this, after observing some clear cognitive decline in myself with longer use of TRT. However, I'm skeptical that supplementing a couple things like preg or DHEA can counter the complete effects of HPTA shutdown and the 12+ disrupted hormones/neurosteroids.. I'm going to experiment with adding enclomiphene to my test prop and see if I can get some detectable LH and FSH going.

To my knowledge, very few people have tested this combination. Cataceous is doing something similar, but he has enanthate in the mix which raises the trough, whereas for this endeavor, we want the lowest trough of exogenous hormone possible . At Maximus, we've seen enclomiphene work well together with once daily scrotal cream to produce normal range LH and FSH, so I am hopeful due to the similar pharmacokinetics of IM prop.

 

[Pnw0031]

That's it, some combo of Preg/DHEA. Best I felt was 5mg/day SR micronized Preg from Empower with 12.5mg/day topical DHEA from another compounding pharmacy.
On that protocol my cognitive function felt amazing. Memory, executive function, creativity, etc...

Empower doesn't make 5mg Pregnenolone caps anymore though for some reason, so I'm testing a few different things now, including topical Pregnenolone, oral DHEA, etc...

I’ve been taking 5mg of topical dhea as well, didn’t realize that Empower was once again down scaling. Pregnenolone doesn’t sit well with me for some reason but that’s the fun and agony of dialing in!

 

[Cataceous]

Yeah, I'm coming around to this, after observing some clear cognitive decline in myself with longer use of TRT. However, I'm skeptical that supplementing a couple things like preg or DHEA can counter the complete effects of HPTA shutdown and the 12+ disrupted hormones/neurosteroids.. I'm going to experiment with adding enclomiphene to my test prop and see if I can get some detectable LH and FSH going.

To my knowledge, very few people have tested this combination. Cataceous is doing something similar, but he has enanthate in the mix which raises the trough, whereas for this endeavor, we want the lowest trough of exogenous hormone possible . At Maximus, we've seen enclomiphene work well together with once daily scrotal cream to produce normal range LH and FSH, so I am hopeful due to the similar pharmacokinetics of IM prop.

It might work in some healthy individuals, but it's more of a stretch for those suffering from secondary hypogonadism, who have a reduced natural set point for testosterone. A crude estimate based on an 18 hour half-life is that propionate still leads to a trough that's 40% of the peak. I expect that's too high for much HPTA recovery.

By the way, my concerns about enclomiphene have gotten the better of me and I am phasing it out. Inspired by Natesto, I am using three daily doses of a micronized testosterone suspension (1.5 mg, 1.5 mg, 0.75 mg ATM). I'm continuing with the peptides: gonadorelin, etc, recognizing that there could be some endogenous/exogenous conflicts there. I had mentioned that adding gonadorelin did correlate with improvements in cognition, which has some support in the literature: "A striking observation was that GnRH promoted adult neurogenesis despite aging."[R]