TRT related to Osteoarthritis? Is there life after a Osteoarthritis diagnosis?

[Gman86]

Ahhh Gman, truly one of the nicest fellows on the website, always very polite. I get the impression you're a younger man (relative to my 68 at least)? You remind me of all the Youtube videos where a 25 year old films an active 75 year old bodybuilder, proudly displaying the message that "age is only a number!". I'd love to have him check back with me in 50 years (if only) and tell me again that "age is only a number". Digest a steak the same at 68 as at 38? Respectfully (I am Canadian . . .), I don't think so. And in my own case, as is much the case with my older friends, I find I need much less sleep than when I was young, usually about 6 hours a night . . .

First off, thanks for the kind words lol. But ya I’ll be 38 in a couple months. 86 is the year I was born. But I’m not discounting that the body definitely goes to sh*t and processes don’t work as well as we age, I definitely notice this just from being 37, compared to say 17, so I’m sure it’s only gonna get worse when I get to become say 67, 77, or 87. I’m sure at 67 I’ll be digesting all food not as good as I do now. Was just saying that when a person gets older, there’s nothing to suggest that they would digest something like ruminant meat, specifically, worse than other foods. Believe it or not, ruminant animal meat really is one of the easier whole food sources to digest. It might take longer to breakdown in the stomach, compared to some foods, but as far as the entire digestion process goes, ruminant animal meat is one of best foods to eat, as far as optimal digestion goes, and is digested by most people, at all ages, very easily, once consumed. Like I said, it’s the #1 food to consume if u have any digestive issues, and want to maintain optimal health. Obv there’s foods like raw honey, for example, that would be easier to digest. U just can’t maintain optimal health consuming just raw honey. Ruminant animal meat is ur best bang for ur buck, as far as digestibility and optimal health goes

And ya it’s very common, from what I’ve seen, for people to not sleep as many hours, as they get older. Was just saying that this isn’t ideal, as far as optimal health goes, and we still all require 7-9 hours of sleep, to have optimal health, no matter what age of adulthood we are in. It’s not like elderly people require less hours to stay in optimal health or anything. However, that would be pretty sweet. Would have more time each day to get stuff done/ enjoy life. Unfortunately that’s not how it works

 

[FunkOdyssey]

And ya it’s very common, from what I’ve seen, for people to not sleep as many hours, as they get older. Was just saying that this isn’t ideal, as far as optimal health goes, and we still all require 7-9 hours of sleep, to have optimal health, no matter what age of adulthood we are in. It’s not like elderly people require less hours to stay in optimal health or anything.

Since observing how powerfully GH supports depth and length of sleep, I wonder how much of reduced sleep with age relates to reduced GH levels? In other words, how much of it could be reversed if you supplemented GH? And then, would the restorative benefits of better and longer sleep outweigh the pro-aging effects of GH/IGF-1? Something to ponder.

 

[Melody68]

I don't doubt for a second that what you and Gman are suggesting can make good rational sense. But it's soooo exhausting to think and contemplate about, especially for the old dogs that can't (and don't even want to) learn the new tricks. Right now I'm giving myself HUGE kudos for having cut out all sugar, but of course there's always a price to pay for that, and every similar, sacrifice. My wife loves to bake pies, and I love to eat them. One of the nicest things in our routine was for her to call me to come out to the porch where she had a fresh cup of coffee and a warm slice of pie waiting for me. I really miss that, and no matter how hard I try, replacing that pie with a piece of meat isn't cutting it . . .

 

[FunkOdyssey]

My wife loves to bake pies, and I love to eat them. One of the nicest things in our routine was for her to call me to come out to the porch where she had a fresh cup of coffee and a warm slice of pie. I really miss that, and no matter how hard I try, replacing that pie with a piece of meat isn't cutting it . . .

I have a special weakness for pie also. I still eat pie occasionally, maybe once a month, even though I know I'll pay for it with a brief flare of joint pain. I think a sustainable approach to these restrictive diets has to allow for the occasional cheat meal or treat. As long as it's relatively rare, these won't do much damage and allow you to participate in social events and indulge a little without feeling imprisoned.

And coffee, that's my other weakness. I would guess 80% of carnivore adherents are still partaking of this decidedly non-carnivore fermented bean juice. I'm back on it myself. The combination of a hefty dose of test prop in the morning and a big cup of coffee feels something like this:

Up, up and away!

 

[Gman86]

Since observing how powerfully GH supports depth and length of sleep, I wonder how much of reduced sleep with age relates to reduced GH levels? In other words, how much of it could be reversed if you supplemented GH? And then, would the restorative benefits of better and longer sleep outweigh the pro-aging effects of GH/IGF-1? Something to ponder.

Since everything in this world, and most likely the universe, revolves around a balance system, I can pretty much guarantee that the answer is that a GH level thats just enough to support sleep, and all other beneficial effects that come from healthy GH levels, but not any higher, as to avoid the decrease in longevity/ lifespan that comes from GH, would be best case scenario for the population ur referring to. That level is going to be slightly different for everyone, and can any human figure out that perfect level for themselves, very unlikely lol. But I’m sure a lot of people can at least get close.

Obv there’s many factors in play, that can negatively affect sleep, as we age, but I would assume that decreased GH levels, as we age, would be a very common factor

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I don't doubt for a second that what you and Gman are suggesting can make good rational sense. But it's soooo exhausting to think and contemplate about, especially for the old dogs that can't (and don't even want to) learn the new tricks. Right now I'm giving myself HUGE kudos for having cut out all sugar, but of course there's always a price to pay for that, and every similar, sacrifice. My wife loves to bake pies, and I love to eat them. One of the nicest things in our routine was for her to call me to come out to the porch where she had a fresh cup of coffee and a warm slice of pie waiting for me. I really miss that, and no matter how hard I try, replacing that pie with a piece of meat isn't cutting it . . .

You might try using glycine as a sweetener. Besides being an essential supplement, it is very sweet-tasting. I use it as a sweetener on cranberries and it works fantastically well although I don't know how it would hold up if heated.

 

[Gman86]

I don't doubt for a second that what you and Gman are suggesting can make good rational sense. But it's soooo exhausting to think and contemplate about, especially for the old dogs that can't (and don't even want to) learn the new tricks. Right now I'm giving myself HUGE kudos for having cut out all sugar, but of course there's always a price to pay for that, and every similar, sacrifice. My wife loves to bake pies, and I love to eat them. One of the nicest things in our routine was for her to call me to come out to the porch where she had a fresh cup of coffee and a warm slice of pie waiting for me. I really miss that, and no matter how hard I try, replacing that pie with a piece of meat isn't cutting it . . .

That’s the thing, I know myself, and I’m sure this is the case for @FunkOdyssey as well, neither of us are telling everyone to do carnivore. I know I’m not, at least. I don’t even do carnivore. What kind of hypocrite would I be to tell everyone to do something I’m not even willing to do lol. All I care about, and I’m sure funk feels the same way, is educate people on what foods are actually healthy, and what foods aren’t. I just want people to be aware of what’s healthy and what’s not, in regards to diet, and then literally do whatever they want lol. It’s all about balance. The balance that works for me personally, is trying to eat as close to carnivore as I can, while consuming the carbs I like to have for gym performance. If I had to give general advice on the subject, I would just tell people to try and eat as close to carnivore as they can, while maintaining overall happiness the best they can. For some people, the happiness they get from consuming certain foods is a better balance than eating other foods that might be better for them health wise. Or sometimes it’s a nostalgia/ comfort thing, sometimes it’s a convenience thing, sometimes it’s a money thing, etc. Again, all comes down to the best balance for that person as an individual. I eat crap all the time. Had some pizza yesterday, along with some blueberry cheesecake. Then on Sunday I had pizza again, with some fried buffalo chicken wings. Life’s all about balance, and that balance is going to look different for everyone. I just want people to implement the balance that increases their overall happiness to the highest level possible. So again, I think people are misunderstanding guys like me and funk, thinking we’re telling everyone to go carnivore. That’s not the case at all lol. It’s simple tho. The closer to carnivore people eat, the healthier their going to be overall. That’s the message that I’m personally trying to get across

 

[FunkOdyssey]

That’s the thing, I know myself, and I’m sure this is the case for @FunkOdyssey as well, neither of us are telling everyone to do carnivore. I know I’m not, at least. I don’t even do carnivore. What kind of hypocrite would I be to tell everyone to do something I’m not even willing to do lol. All I care about, and I’m sure funk feels the same way, is educate people on what foods are actually healthy, and what foods aren’t. I just want people to be aware of what’s healthy and what’s not, in regards to diet, and then literally do whatever they want lol. It’s all about balance. The balance that works for me personally, is trying to eat as close to carnivore as I can, while consuming the carbs I like to have for gym performance. If I had to give general advice on the subject, I would just tell people to try and eat as close to carnivore as they can, while maintaining overall happiness the best they can. For some people, the happiness they get from consuming certain foods is a better balance than eating other foods that might be better for them health wise. Or sometimes it’s a nostalgia/ comfort thing, sometimes it’s a convenience thing, sometimes it’s a money thing, etc. Again, all comes down to the best balance for that person as an individual. I eat crap all the time. Had some pizza yesterday, along with some blueberry cheesecake. Then on Sunday I had pizza again, with some fried buffalo chicken wings. Life’s all about balance, and that balance is going to look different for everyone. I just want people to implement the balance that increases their overall happiness to the highest level possible. So again, I think people are misunderstanding guys like me and funk, thinking we’re telling everyone to go carnivore. That’s not the case at all lol. It’s simple tho. The closer to carnivore people eat, the healthier their going to be overall. That’s the message that I’m personally trying to get across

100%. The thing I actually tell people to do is to become more intentional about eating and perform some experiments with their diets. Try different things and see how it makes you feel. Once people start experiencing the connections between what they eat and how they feel and perform, they've started down a path that leads to better health and well-being. Whatever you feel awesome eating, I'm in support of it, be it carnivore or vegan or anything in between. I have some strong opinions about which foods are healthier and what your outcomes on different diets are likely to be, but those are just my opinions.

The only thing I'm firmly against is eating the default food around you, feeling like crap most of the time, and living in ignorance of how your food choices are playing a major role in your feeling like crap. There are some interesting ethical implications here, because in this state, you are performing sub-optimally in all your various roles and responsibilities. Do you believe you have a duty to those who depend on you to show up as your best self?

 

[Gman86]

100%. The thing I actually tell people to do is to become more intentional about eating and perform some experiments with their diets. Try different things and see how it makes you feel. Once people start experiencing the connections between what they eat and how they feel and perform, they've started down a path that leads to better health and well-being. Whatever you feel awesome eating, I'm in support of it, be it carnivore or vegan or anything in between. I have some strong opinions about which foods are healthier and what your outcomes on different diets are likely to be, but those are just my opinions.

The only thing I'm firmly against is eating the default food around you, feeling like crap most of the time, and living in ignorance of how your food choices are playing a major role in your feeling like crap. There are some interesting ethical implications here, because in this state, you are performing sub-optimally in all your various roles and responsibilities. Do you believe you have a duty to those who depend on you to show up as your best self?

Well said, per usual. And I’m very very big on the last thing u said. I think it’s extremely important to take care of urself as much as possible, for many reasons, but one being that I think it’s important to give everyone u care about the best version of urself, as much as u can. Ur significant other, ur kids, friends, relatives, just everyone really. And a huge part of that tends to be how well we take care of our bodies and minds, whether we realize it or not.

The only difference between me and u, is the fact that I can’t pretend that vegetables and veganism / vegetarianism is a smart/ healthy choice, when it comes to diet. I just can’t do it lol. I just know that vegetables/ plants goal is to kill/ harm anything that wants to eat/ kill it, so I can’t pretend that people are doing a smart thing by consuming these things on a regular basis. But I do always support whatever makes people happy, so in a round about way, I do support veganism/ vegetarianism, if eating those ways is what makes the person happy

 

[FunkOdyssey]

The only difference between me and u, is the fact that I can’t pretend that vegetables and veganism / vegetarianism is a smart/ healthy choice, when it comes to diet. I just can’t do it lol. I just know that vegetables/ plants goal is to kill/ harm anything that wants to eat/ kill it, so I can’t pretend that people are doing a smart thing by consuming these things on a regular basis.

I don't pretend it's smart, but there's a problem: I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for everyone in the world to eat 2-3 lbs of beef daily, and if they tried to, it would become far more expensive than it already is. So, if someone with a strong constitution and a strong microbiome is able to detoxify all the plant foods and feel good eating mostly plants, I say good for them. They can save some money doing that, and I can eat their share of the meat.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Well said, per usual. And I’m very very big on the last thing u said. I think it’s extremely important to take care of urself as much as possible, for many reasons, but one being that I think it’s important to give everyone u care about the best version of urself, as much as u can. Ur significant other, ur kids, friends, relatives, just everyone really. And a huge part of that tends to be how well we take care of our bodies and minds, whether we realize it or not.

The only difference between me and u, is the fact that I can’t pretend that vegetables and veganism / vegetarianism is a smart/ healthy choice, when it comes to diet. I just can’t do it lol. I just know that vegetables/ plants goal is to kill/ harm anything that wants to eat/ kill it, so I can’t pretend that people are doing a smart thing by consuming these things on a regular basis. But I do always support whatever makes people happy, so in a round about way, I do support veganism/ vegetarianism, if eating those ways is what makes the person happy

My understanding regarding what plants "want" is that they want their seeds to be spread around with a helping of fertilizer added, but what they don't want is for their seeds to be digested and hence destroyed. Eating grains therefore should be viewed with suspicion, but eating the fruits or starches of plants is likely fine in many cases. Many plants rely on their seeds being eaten by animals and pooped out whole in order to spread and be "replanted". Birds and elephants are two examples. Some people seem to be sensitive to almost any plant matter and in those cases would need to adjust accordingly.

 

[Gman86]

I don't pretend it's smart, but there's a problem: I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for everyone in the world to eat 2-3 lbs of beef daily, and if they tried to, it would become far more expensive than it already is. So, if someone with a strong constitution and a strong microbiome is able to detoxify all the plant foods and feel good eating mostly plants, I say good for them. They can save some money doing that, and I can eat their share of the meat.

That’s funny, I do selfishly think of that quite often lol. The fact that I’m half glad that a lot of the population in the world doesn’t realize how healthy animal products are yet, especially ruminant animal meat, and still think grains and nuts and seeds and veggies, etc, are actually healthy for u, and most people end up consuming said foods, and either avoid ruminant animal meat, or don’t consume much of it, keeping the prices of it decent, for guys like u and me who eat it at every meal. Again, selfish thinking, I know, but I’m just being honest lol. Literally pros and cons to everything in life

 

[Gman86]

My understanding regarding what plants "want" is that they want their seeds to be spread around with a helping of fertilizer added, but what they don't want is for their seeds to be digested and hence destroyed. Eating grains therefore should be viewed with suspicion, but eating the fruits or starches of plants is likely fine in many cases. Many plants rely on their seeds being eaten by animals and pooped out whole in order to spread and be "replanted". Birds and elephants are two examples. Some people seem to be sensitive to almost any plant matter and in those cases would need to adjust accordingly.

Exactly. Plants want their seeds to be spread, ideally in feces, aka fertilizer, like u mentioned. So it is definitely ideal if an animal consumes the seeds, and sh*t’s them out, for lack of a better word lol, and the seeds have some nice fertilizer to grow in.

What plants don’t want, is to be picked out of the ground and killed. U pick a vegetable out of the ground, like broccoli, kale, beets, carrots, etc, ur literally killing that plant. That’s the last thing that plant wants. Therefore, it does the only thing a living thing can do, that doesn’t have the ability to physically defend itself or run away, it defends itself via plant defense chemicals/ plant toxins/ anti nutrients, etc, to deter things from eating/ killing it. And their seeds are like their babies, and that’s what they want to defend the most, since that’s what it takes to pass on its dna, and keep its specifies alive. All living things are evolutionarily setup, for whatever reason, to not only keep themselves alive, but more importantly keep their species alive, and they do this through reproduction, obv. Many animals will sacrifice themselves for their babies. Plants seem to hold their seeds (aka babies) in a very high regard, as well. So a lot of plant toxins/ defense chemicals/ anti nutrients end up being in the seeds of plants. They seem to be what a plant wants to protect the most. But plants, aka veggies, obv also have tons of plant toxins/ defense chemicals/ anti nutrients in them as well, since again, they don’t want to die, aka get picked out of the ground. So as far as food goes, u absolutely do not want to be consuming plants/ veggies/ seeds of a plant on a regular basis

Now fruit, on the other hand, the plant wants u to consume. That’s why a lot of fruits are very bright and attractive colors, especially as they ripen. U pick a fruit, and the plant, as a whole, still lives. Ur not killing the plant. So there doesn’t need to be as many plant toxins/ defense chemicals/ anti nutrients in fruits. The only reason there is still some, in low levels, is because the plant doesn’t want anything to eat their fruit before it is ripe. I assume this is because the plant wants the seeds to be fully matured, by the time something picks the fruit and consumes it. So what happens is, as a fruit ripens, the base of the fruit that it’s growing out of reabsorbs the plant toxins/ defense chemicals/ anti nutrients. So u always want to consume fruits that are fully ripened, if possible. And on a side note to that, just remember, the best way to consume fruit, if possible, is straight from the source, as it fully ripens. It’s not the same thing if someone picks a fruit before it ripens, and then lets the fruit ripen while on its own and not attached to anything anymore, and then gives/ sells it to someone when it’s fully ripened. If a fruit is picked before it’s ripe, it still has whatever plant toxins/ defense chemicals/ anti nutrients that it had to begin with, and those plant toxins/ defense chemicals/ anti nutrients don’t have anywhere to go, so they stay in the fruit, even if u wait until it’s fully ripe to consume it. So that’s just something to keep in mind. Obv not all of us have the luxury of having fruit to pick at our disposal, but just remember that it’s not the same thing picking a ripe fruit, vs buying an unripened fruit, and then letting it sit and ripen before consuming it.

But hopefully that helps with clear up any confusion

 

[riscchip]

Hello everyone, I'm 68 and have been on TRT about 7 months. I tried TRT with the main aims of fighting fatigue and numerous aches and pains that I've suffered from for a long time. Mostly sore joints, sore back etc.

About the time that I started TRT, my hands started hurting, and I have since been diagnosed as having OA (Osteoarthritis) by a rheumatologist. He says it's in my right knee also. I also had a problem a few months ago with my foot - everybody thought it was gout, but it wouldn't go away until they tried me on a course of corticosteroids. I ride my bike a lot, no problems, but a couple of days ago I went for a 2 mile walk, and got really sore feet 24 hours later. Maybe that's OA also?

My questions - First, I can't help but notice the coincidence with the hand and foot pain appearance and my timing starting TRT. Of course it could be a complete coincidence, but is there a cause/effect relationship between TRT and OA that anyone is aware of? I searched the site for OA and found some scientific journal entries, but I found them hard to understand.

Second, given that I've got OA, I'd love to hear from some other members here about how they might have helped themselves and how they're doing. Any pointers would definitely be greatly appreciated. Is there still cause for optimism after an OA diagnosis? Many thanks . . .

Try Super beets. The first knuckle in my index finger is always in pain and I cannot make a fist. After taking beets for awhile it goes away. If I stop taking them it returns. Tested it twice.