I literally gave myself kidney stones after eating "healthy" which meant, unbeknownst to me at the time, practically everything I was eating was high in oxalates. So to say be mindful of their consumption is very good advice.
TRT related to Osteoarthritis? Is there life after a Osteoarthritis diagnosis?
- Thread starter Melody68
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Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
What you were taking sounds reasonable to continue, but I would have expected some improvement by now. DMSO is another must-do, but IMO the most important think is light activity in the problem areas and maintaining a strength routine everywhere else. This does a lot of things like getting blood flow to the joints and releasing various healing compounds in the body, as well as establishing the proper mindset. There is rarely one single thing that is a fix, but rather doing everything that might help and that you need to do anyway will become a fix. You will always have issues of some sort so you need to get used to working through them.
I thought LOW T was a risk for Osteoarthritis. I can tell you that nandrolone is practically magic for alleviating or lessening joint and arthritic pain.
It’s extremely rare that anyone “back pedals” once they go carnivore. The hefty majority of the time, once someone goes carnivore, and experiences the benefits, they stay carnivore. Out of all the well known carnivores, Dr. Paul Saladino is the only one that’s incorporated carbs back into his diet. None of the well respected doctors in the Carnivore space agree with him, that carbs are necessary for optimal health. And Joe Rogan does carnivore for one month out of each year. During carnivore month. Believe it’s January. He never claimed to be carnivore. He just tries to eat a carnivore based diet, since that’s what he enjoys/ feels best doing.lol ya oxalates arent an issue unless ur eating ALOT of RAW spinach daily(prob have to blend it cold to get enough for most people and not drink enough etc etc and mostly was an issue in pioneer days when certain leafy greens were all they could eat for weeks or chew or drank birch bark). anything that makes ur teeth feel weird has oxalates, otherwise ur fine. wouldn't worry about it as most veggies have very little and once cooked next to zero. earliest records we have of even prehuman remains shows veggies berries etc very much natural for us, infact.
its such a silly argument that "plant defences are bad" when SOOOOOOOO many plants WANT to be eaten and why there is delicious fruitto spread the seeds and surely plants dont want the animals they need to spread seed to die sooner... THINK.. just like some mushrooms are deadly poison but some smell sweet to attract animals to eat and spread spores. i can promise fungi have kept more people alive than have killed, so should we just throw the baby out with bath water? or are we not able to understand nuance? vegans are just as bad not understanding nuances.
veggies are very important as you see all the guys who promoted carnivore are back peddling as finally figured out u need phytonutrients and antioxidants to live optimally ESP if arent eating raw organ meats and contents of animals guts. even joe rogan eats fruits when on "carnivore". remember atkins had a heart attack pretty young.. the idea is just to keep your glucose spikes lower everyones mileage varies everyones absorption of b12 or vitamin C is different aswell.
so many lies in the carnivor community re meat amount in china causing long lifespan.. which of course is a lie as 1. the increase in meat in hong kong has only recently been a thing (ie not part of decades of people living the longest). somehow blogs sell this to people who cannot think. its like a drastic change in USA diet for past 15 years and blame that change for why everyone dies early and obese which ignores full lives not eating the new diet.
And no plants want u to eat them. It’s the opposite 99.99% of the time. They die when u eat them. No living thing, including plant species, would be alive today if they attracted things to come and eat them.
Fruits are different. U don’t kill the plant when u consume its fruit. It will simply grow more fruit. No need to put as many toxins in fruit, since like u said, ideally the plant wants u to consume its fruit, so that u can then spread the seeds, ideally in a pile of ur feces. And fruits were nothing like the fruits we have today, 99.99% of our evolution. Throughout our evolution they were much smaller versions of what we have today, much less sweet, and the ratio of seeds to flesh was much more skewed towards seeds, than fruit is today.
There is nothing in plants that we need to have optimal health, that we can’t get from animal foods, without all the negatives that come from consuming plants. Plus, animal foods have the correct forms of micronutrients that our bodies prefer, opposed to plants, that have forms of certain micronutrients that aren’t what are bodies prefer. One of the main examples being beta carotene in plant foods, va retinol in animal foods. Another one being vitamin K1 in plant foods, vs Vitamin K2 in animal foods. Just another example of the fact that we’re meant to consume animal foods, not plant foods, if optimal health is the goal
U are partially right tho, about oxalates. Cooking certain plants throughly does decrease its oxalate content quite a bit. So that can definitely help decrease the amount of oxalates consumed, when consuming certain plants
See, this is a perfect example of why I try to at least educate people on what’s actually healthy, vs what people think is healthy. Thanks for sharing this anecdote. Any foods in particular, that u think contributed the most to getting kidney stones?
Seagal
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the CarnivoreMale forum...
health.clevelandclinic.org
Higher dose of Vitamine C can contribute to stones. There is always a catch. *sigh*
Diet Do’s and Don’ts to Prevent Kidney Stones
Diet can play a key role in preventing kidney stones. Get seven doctor-approved tips for what to eat (and what to avoid) to help stop kidney stones from forming.
health.clevelandclinic.org
Higher dose of Vitamine C can contribute to stones. There is always a catch. *sigh*
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Belekas
nobody
OP, have you done your DNA test by any chance? I'd def recommend doing one and analysing raw DNA data. I'm absolutely sure you will uncover something usefull along the way. No doubts about that, at all. We all are different with different genetic mutations, polymorphisms, etc. So IMO it def pays to start decoding your genome going forward. I wish I have done it earlier though.
Hope you feel better soon.
Hope you feel better soon.
Vince
Super Moderator
I'm going on personal experience. The cleaner I eat, the better I feel and that includes good non-starchy vegetables. Also, my labs are much more improved when I enjoy! my good vegetables.No I haven’t. And I think as long as a person avoids processed foods, as much as possible, that’s the main thing. Imo, there’s zero point in eating veggies, unless u enjoy eating them. They’re just sources of plant toxins/ defense chemicals, as well as anti nutrients, and are going to be littered with pesticides, unless they’re organic. There’s nothing that we need, that plants offer, that we can’t get from animal foods, without all the things in plants that hurt our overall health. But eating veggies is still way better than consuming processed foods obv
But overall, if a person consumes mostly whole foods, and stays away from processed foods as much as they can, they’ll probably not have to worry too much about getting kidney stones, I would imagine. But it’s just a medical fact that consuming oxalates will increase ur chances of developing kidney stones. So the less oxalates u consume, the less chance u have of developing kidney stones. It’s just that simple. I want people to eat whatever makes them happy tho. Just want people to be aware of certain risks that come with eating certain foods. Once they know, I just want them to do literally whatever is going to increase their overall happiness as much as possible. For some people, the flavor and texture of veggies is enjoyable, and they like to still eat them, even if they know they’re doing more harm than good, by consuming them. Veggies also can help with weight loss, since they’re filling, without being too calorie dense. And obv losing weight, if a person is overweight for their frame, will improve overall health. So it all comes down to balance. The balance that makes a person happiest overall. I just try to spread the word about how consuming veggies/ plants isn’t a smart idea, if a person is consuming them strictly because they think they’re good for them health wise. I’ve eaten veggies in the past, when I didn’t want to, strictly because I thought they were vital for optimal health. So just want to save other people from having to go through the same thing. It’s funny, growing up I always wished it could be the opposite of what it was, in regards to what’s healthy and what’s not healthy. I wished that steak and butter and bacon were what’s healthy, not veggies. And now that I’m an adult, I realize that this is actually the case. Pretty sure that’s the only wish as a kid that actually came true. I also wished to be Spider-Man one day, but still waiting on that wish to come to fruition, unfortunately
Sounds like overall they improve ur happiness, eat away my friend lol. Best thing anyone can do, in regards to diet, is cut out processed junk. So if consuming more veggies leads to consuming less processed foods, that’s always a great thing, and will always improve a persons health/ happiness/ quality of life. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it
Spinach was ONE of the things I was eating so the warning to be MINDFUL of foods and beverage high in oxylate is relevant. That's not the same as saying avoid all vegetables.lol ya oxalates arent an issue unless ur eating ALOT of RAW spinach daily(prob have to blend it cold to get enough for most people and not drink enough etc etc and mostly was an issue in pioneer days when certain leafy greens were all they could eat for weeks or chew or drank birch bark). anything that makes ur teeth feel weird has oxalates, otherwise ur fine. wouldn't worry about it as most veggies have very little and once cooked next to zero. earliest records we have of even prehuman remains shows veggies berries etc very much natural for us, infact.
its such a silly argument that "plant defences are bad" when SOOOOOOOO many plants WANT to be eaten and why there is delicious fruit
veggies are very important as you see all the guys who promoted carnivore are back peddling as finally figured out u need phytonutrients and antioxidants to live optimally ESP if arent eating raw organ meats and contents of animals guts. even joe rogan eats fruits when on "carnivore". remember atkins had a heart attack pretty young.. the idea is just to keep your glucose spikes lower everyones mileage varies everyones absorption of b12 or vitamin C is different aswell.
so many lies in the carnivor community re meat amount in china causing long lifespan.. which of course is a lie as 1. the increase in meat in hong kong has only recently been a thing (ie not part of decades of people living the longest). somehow blogs sell this to people who cannot think. its like a drastic change in USA diet for past 15 years and blame that change for why everyone dies early and obese which ignores full lives not eating the new diet.
what was the analysis levels of oxalates u had in ur stone/urine? just curious. also, often healthy foods are high in calcium
calcium is #1 cause of stones. of course it is wise to keep those plants that make ur teeth feel ruff to a min and be mindful not to eat RAW oxalate rich foods. that being said EVERYONE is different, everyones water source is different.. many people get gout from eating too much meat aswell, so important to keep balance in all things!Damn, I agreed with everything u said up until the part about meat and gout lol. Meat is an extremely broad term. Ya, people that eat processed cold cuts will absolutely have a high chance of getting gout. Will u ever see someone with gout while consuming all their calories from ruminant animal meat, I highly doubt it. Ruminant animal meat doesn’t lead to people getting gout. Again, I challenge u to find a person that’s on carnivore that has gout, let alone someone on the lion diet. Real world results tell us that whole unprocessed meat sources from animals fed their natural diets has nothing to do with gout. Any studies u see where people had gout, and consumed meat, also ate a ton of other things that can contribute to gout. So that right there makes any study showing meat causes gout null and void. At the end of the day u have to go by what happens in reality/ what real world results people experience. Not just parrot what u’ve heard or read other people saywhat was the analysis levels of oxalates u had in ur stone/urine? just curious. also, often healthy foods are high in calcium
Again, I stand by studies/ clinical trials where the participants got to eat any meat they wanted/ any foods they wanted, in regards to gout, being a poor source of information/ data to extrapolate from, but in these clinical trials, they lowered their carbs and increased their protein intake, and it improved the participants gout. Not sure how u explain this, when meat/ protein sources supposedly cause gout
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Oh 60mg/week. Yes my low E2 theory makes a lot of sense then. That's a super low dose and men get their E2 from testosterone. You may not be providing your body enough testosterone to make E2 from. @Gman86 is saying the same thing. Let us know what your labs say.
BTW, I hope your doctor ordered the sensitive version of estradiol. The regular estradiol lab can pick up some interference with other compounds in your body. So the sensitive version is preferred.
how to get gout of course genetics play a big part.
"Eating foods high in purines, which break down into uric acid, can increase the risk. These foods include red meat, organ meats, game meats, "
i mean its science, nitrogen(protein) sources often make u have more uric acid as have more purine among simply having more nitrogen. there isnt any magic in this or ifs and buts.
cant discount crucifer veggies either, but studies do show there is something with veggie based purine perhaps enzymes or total level ingested that doesnt seem to cause gout.
Purine-rich foods, dairy and protein intake, and the risk of gout in men - PubMed
Higher levels of meat and seafood consumption are associated with an increased risk of gout, whereas a higher level of consumption of dairy products is associated with a decreased risk. Moderate intake of purine-rich vegetables or protein is not associated with an increased risk of gout.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Dietary factors and risk of gout and hyperuricemia: a meta-analysis and systematic review - PubMed
The risk of hyperuricemia and gout is positively correlated with the intake of red meat, seafoods, alcohol or fructose, and negatively with dairy products or soy foods. High-purine vegetables showed no association with hyperuricemia, but negative association with gout. Coffee intake is...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Purine-rich foods, protein intake, and the prevalence of hyperuricemia: the Shanghai Men's Health Study - PubMed
Our data suggest a direct association between seafood consumption and hyperuricemia and an inverse association between consumption of soy food and hyperuricemia among middle-aged, Chinese men.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
this has been well documented over many decades and just because u havent heard joe rogan or 10 people who know on carnivor havn't gotten gout doesnt mean its not happening alot more in that demo.
of course there is many factors and not everyone will get gout even if they drink smoke eat only purine rich foods and overweight. but what we do know is DRs tell people to change diet and this often prevents gout from returning.. genetics is a big part, but to say there is NO increase in risk is silly and likely was parroted to you by some carnivor blog.
i mean we know ketosis is horrible for kidneys and of particular danger for diabetic people and older people. kidneys having to get rid of extra nitrogen is hard on them be it ketones or uric acid, this is why some people get kidney stones of uric acid but no gout.
Ketosis is horrible for kidneys? Where are u getting this stuff? Throughout most of human evolution we followed heard animals, killed them, and ate them nose to tail. We would sometimes eat a little bit of fruit, when in season (throughout most of human evolution fruit was much smaller and much less sweet), and honey, when we would come across it, and some plants, if we were desperate for food. So between plants having very few carbs, and fruit back then having very few carbs, we were in a state of ketosis most of our evolution. Ketosis is the healthiest state for our bodies, and the most natural state. Would make no sense for our natural state as humans to negatively affect any part of our bodies.how to get gout of course genetics play a big part.
"Eating foods high in purines, which break down into uric acid, can increase the risk. These foods include red meat, organ meats, game meats, "
i mean its science, nitrogen(protein) sources often make u have more uric acid as have more purine among simply having more nitrogen. there isnt any magic in this or ifs and buts.
cant discount crucifer veggies either, but studies do show there is something with veggie based purine perhaps enzymes or total level ingested that doesnt seem to cause gout.
Purine-rich foods, dairy and protein intake, and the risk of gout in men - PubMed
Higher levels of meat and seafood consumption are associated with an increased risk of gout, whereas a higher level of consumption of dairy products is associated with a decreased risk. Moderate intake of purine-rich vegetables or protein is not associated with an increased risk of gout.
Dietary factors and risk of gout and hyperuricemia: a meta-analysis and systematic review - PubMed
The risk of hyperuricemia and gout is positively correlated with the intake of red meat, seafoods, alcohol or fructose, and negatively with dairy products or soy foods. High-purine vegetables showed no association with hyperuricemia, but negative association with gout. Coffee intake is...
Purine-rich foods, protein intake, and the prevalence of hyperuricemia: the Shanghai Men's Health Study - PubMed
Our data suggest a direct association between seafood consumption and hyperuricemia and an inverse association between consumption of soy food and hyperuricemia among middle-aged, Chinese men.
this has been well documented over many decades and just because u havent heard joe rogan or 10 people who know on carnivor havn't gotten gout doesnt mean its not happening alot more in that demo.
of course there is many factors and not everyone will get gout even if they drink smoke eat only purine rich foods and overweight. but what we do know is DRs tell people to change diet and this often prevents gout from returning.. genetics is a big part, but to say there is NO increase in risk is silly and likely was parroted to you by some carnivor blog.
i mean we know ketosis is horrible for kidneys and of particular danger for diabetic people and older people. kidneys having to get rid of extra nitrogen is hard on them be it ketones or uric acid, this is why some people get kidney stones of uric acid but no gout.
And ketosis is bad for diabetics?!? This is comical. Being in ketosis is the best thing for anyone suffering from diabetes, and is the best way for someone to reverse/ resolve their type 2 diabetes. Like what are u even talking about lol
Anyways, I don’t want to derail the thread anymore than we already have, and clearly we are in two different universes, as far as diet and the human body goes, so let’s just agree to disagree
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Belekas
nobody
Spot on. I have so much to say but I'm keeping quite as don't want to get involved as these discussions never go anywhere. There is just too many nuances to parrot one way of eating or another. Do whatever you think is best for you but always use critical thinking, always. And never ever forget that a lot of critical thinking cognitive biases exists as well. And yet nobody knows whats its best for you and your genetics, epigenetics, etc.
Just my couple of cents.
"I have so much to say but I'm keeping quiet as don't want to get involved as these discussions never go anywhere."
Yes, I tend to agree with your statement, although my feelings vary. Very few people will objectively consider the facts and then change their predispositional beliefs. Most of the time nothing is gained when you enter into a debate/argument - both parties simply waste energy and end up walking away thinking "man, that guy's an a--hole". But, to be fair, on a forum like this there are undecided third parties who are tuning in, and perhaps their beliefs can be influenced one way or another . . . so yes, vigorous debate can be beneficial.
Belekas
nobody
I agree with you as well and wish everyone nothing but great health and success. Humans have evolved to survive eating meat, also humans have evolved to survive eating plants as well. Two different spectrums. Humans are amazing, yet I understand that everyone is unique and different, and that is exactly what I ment with my previous post and why I don't get involved. I save my energy for something better and even without this forum or other forums, there is more then enough information to learn everything you will ever need to know about one topic or another.
OP, sorry for derailing a bit, so I rest my case.
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