TRT related to Osteoarthritis? Is there life after a Osteoarthritis diagnosis?

[Melody68]

Hello everyone, I'm 68 and have been on TRT about 7 months. I tried TRT with the main aims of fighting fatigue and numerous aches and pains that I've suffered from for a long time. Mostly sore joints, sore back etc.

About the time that I started TRT, my hands started hurting, and I have since been diagnosed as having OA (Osteoarthritis) by a rheumatologist. He says it's in my right knee also. I also had a problem a few months ago with my foot - everybody thought it was gout, but it wouldn't go away until they tried me on a course of corticosteroids. I ride my bike a lot, no problems, but a couple of days ago I went for a 2 mile walk, and got really sore feet 24 hours later. Maybe that's OA also?

My questions - First, I can't help but notice the coincidence with the hand and foot pain appearance and my timing starting TRT. Of course it could be a complete coincidence, but is there a cause/effect relationship between TRT and OA that anyone is aware of? I searched the site for OA and found some scientific journal entries, but I found them hard to understand.

Second, given that I've got OA, I'd love to hear from some other members here about how they might have helped themselves and how they're doing. Any pointers would definitely be greatly appreciated. Is there still cause for optimism after an OA diagnosis? Many thanks . . .

 

[granger]

trt affects immune system depending on the type of arthritis it can make it worse or better.

TRT raises IGF which can make unwanted bone spurs grow faster.

also possible with more energy using your joints more which can cause inflammation.

 

[Systemlord]

My questions - First, I can't help but notice the coincidence with the hand and foot pain appearance and my timing starting TRT. Of course it could be a complete coincidence, but is there a cause/effect relationship between TRT and OA that anyone is aware of?

When you had low testosterone your body wasn’t functioning normally, now it’s closer to normal that it has been in a long time and any disease you have it’s going to affect you differently. The same would be true if you had limes or heart disease which might make TRT more challenging because your body is fighting normalcy.

 

[Vince]

I'm 69. I feel my best when I eat non-starchy vegetables. Lots of them. You should give it a try. I think it would help reduce joint pain and support strong, stable joints.

 

[Gman86]

Just be careful adding in too many vegetables. Intaking too much oxalates can result in oxalate crystals forming in the body, resulting in things like bone and joint pain. Oxalate crystals are very hard and spiky compounds. I’ll attach a pic of what they look like under a microscope

In regards to ur issue, I wonder if TRT lowered ur cortisol levels at all. TRT has been known to reduce cortisol levels, and cortisol has natural anti-inflammatory effects. Hence why corticosteroids worked to reduce ur pain, temporarily. U could maybe try some progesterone. Prog can theoretically increase cortisol levels. Might help reduce ur pain. If lowered cortisol levels is ur issue, of course

 

[Systemlord]

Vegetables can absolutely increase inflammation, if I eat 6 cherry tomatoes, I get a visible inflammatory response. Tomatoes, vegetables have naturally occurring defense chemicals since they don't have teeth or claws to defend themselves from being eaten.

Animals know which plants to eat and which to stay away from, humans have lost this pure instinct, toddlers spit out the broccoli because they're in their pure natural state, but when the parent forces them to eat something their taste buds, brain is telling them to spit out due to the bad taste, sadly we don't listen to what our bodies are telling us.

We are the architect of our own destruction.

 

[Melody68]

Thanks everyone (thus far) for the responses. I spent some time reading entries on the net and most of them deal with the dangers to joints of having LOW T; not much on whether or how TRT may negatively affect joint health.

I've always had to be careful with work and exercise; too much repetitive motions and I'd have a sore joint the next day. Yes, I made it through life (most of it) skirting that issue, but I had hoped T would help me with it once and for all. Maybe I'm not taking enough of it; I'm at a low dose 60mg per week. I have my blood tested tomorrow, I'll share the results.

I'm 6'4 with long bones; my grandfather was over 6'7. I only saw a single pic of him - he died at age 38 of some unknown malaise - he was also tall and gaunt with long limbs. I've always speculated that he might have been a Marfan, which would explain a lot of things about him and me.

A while ago I was big on sweets, which I have since cut out, but I still eat a lot of bread. That will have to change, probably more so for the Mediterranean diet. I'm going to try that and hope for the best . . .

 

[Gman86]

Vegetables can absolutely increase inflammation, if I eat 6 cherry tomatoes, I get an visible inflammatory response. Tomatoes, vegetables have naturally occurring defense chemicals since they don't have teeth or claws to defend themselves from being eaten.

Animals know which plants to eat and which to stay away from, human have lost this pure instinct, toddlers spit out the broccoli because they're in the pure natural state, but when the parent forces them to eat something their taste buds, brain is telling them to spit out due to the bad taste, sadly we don't listen to what our bodies are telling us.

We are the architect of our own destruction.

Preach brotha, preach lol. Everything u said was spot on. And I’m sure ur aware, but for those that are not, tomatoes are in the nightshade family, and nightshades contain solanine, a toxic alkaloid that can promote inflammation in moderate to large amounts. Not all people react to nightshades the same, but just something to be cognizant of

 

[Vince]

Just be careful adding in too many vegetables. Intaking too much oxalates can result in oxalate crystals forming in the body, resulting in things like bone and joint pain. Oxalate crystals are very hard and spiky compounds. I’ll attach a pic of what they look like under a microscope

In regards to ur issue, I wonder if TRT lowered ur cortisol levels at all. TRT has been known to reduce cortisol levels, and cortisol has natural anti-inflammatory effects. Hence why corticosteroids worked to reduce ur pain, temporarily. U could maybe try some progesterone. Prog can theoretically increase cortisol levels. Might help reduce ur pain. If lowered cortisol levels is ur issue, of course

Here are some ways to prevent kidney stones:

• Hydrate
  Drink 2–3 liters of fluids per day, depending on your activity level and how much you sweat. Water is best, but you can also drink citrus drinks like lemonade and orange juice, tea, and coffee. Diluting your urine with fluids prevents kidney stones from forming and growing.
• Limit salt
  Sodium causes your kidneys to excrete more calcium, which increases your chances of developing kidney stones. Try to limit your sodium intake to 2,300 milligrams per day. You can check food labels for sodium content, or ask about it when eating out. You can also try cooking from scratch and avoiding processed and fast foods, canned soups and vegetables, and lunch meats.
• Adjust your diet
  Consider eating less animal protein, like meat, eggs, fish, and shellfish, and avoiding foods that are high in oxalate, like spinach, walnuts, and chocolate. Eating animal protein increases the amount of acids your kidneys have to process, which can reduce the excretion of substances that help prevent kidney stones. You can also try getting enough calcium, but not too much, in the form of milk, cheese, or yogurt (about 1,000–1,200 milligrams per day).
• Maintain a healthy weight
  Being overweight or obese can put stress on your kidneys, so try to lose weight gradually and safely. Crash dieting can also increase your risk of kidney stones.
  
  
  
  
  NHS
  
  Preventing kidney stones - NHS
  Contents. ... The best way to prevent kidney stones is to make sure you drink plenty of water each day to avoid becoming dehydrated. To prevent stones returning...
  

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Thanks everyone (thus far) for the responses. I spent some time reading entries on the net and most of them deal with the dangers to joints of having LOW T; not much on whether or how TRT may negatively affect joint health.

I've always had to be careful with work and exercise; too much repetitive motions and I'd have a sore joint the next day. Yes, I made it through life (most of it) skirting that issue, but I had hoped T would help me with it once and for all. Maybe I'm not taking enough of it; I'm at a low dose 60mg per week. I have my blood tested tomorrow, I'll share the results.

I'm 6'4 with long bones; my grandfather was over 6'7. I only saw a single pic of him - he died at age 38 of some unknown malaise - he was also tall and gaunt with long limbs. I've always speculated that he might have been a Marfan, which would explain a lot of things about him and me.

A while ago I was big on sweets, which I have since cut out, but I still eat a lot of bread. That will have to change, probably more so for the Mediterranean diet. I'm going to try that and hope for the best . . .

A few ideas...
- I doubt if TRT is a big factor, although if your estrogen is low, then that could cause joint pain
- See the "fixes for joint issues" thread. A lot of Osteoarthritis is due to an immune response, basically a food sensitivity. In my case eliminating whey protein was a big improvement. Bread has to go for many reasons, but if you recover, you can eventually try adding back in sourdough and/or bread made from European wheat. An elimination diet is worth a try to try to identify the source of food issues.
- LARGE doses of Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM is a must. DMSO also. Some people benefit from Boron.
- You could try adding in Nandrolone to your TRT if you tolerate it well, however on the hormone front, I would start with something in the Growth Hormone family, likely secretagouges.
- Pentosan polysulfate doesn't get much publicity but has been shown to help.
- Check your gait and form for every movement.
- *** helps some people.
- No one likes to stretch but it really helps and it has to be done.

 

[Melody68]

Great suggestions so far, I'm going to try some of them.

I've been reading more about the subject, and came across the thread where it was suggested that TRT can lead to stiffer tendons which are more prone to injury. Some members mentioned, somewhat to my shock, that they have suffered from tennis elbow and achilles heel issues which is EXACTLY what I've been dealing with. I started lifting light weights at the time I started TRT, back in December last year. Some time in late February, I felt it was finally safe to go to failure, for the first time, with some heavier dumbells. Yeah, the first and last time . . . next day I had the dreaded tennis elbow and I've been off to this day waiting for it to heal. The achilles heel has acted up too when I mentioned I had a sore foot.

This is a bit of a downer, because my TRT experience is still being assessed, and I don't want to choose to quit. Does the fact that TRT may cause tendon issues bother anyone else? Truth be told I noticed some nice changes in body composition even during the two light months that I was lifting the weights after starting TRT. I really think that if I was able to continue exercising then I would have built some good muscle. So I wouldn't want this to hold me back (ie can't wait to start lifting again).

I think Vince mentioned in that thread that he had tennis elbow (or achilles heel issues) and treated it with creatinine?

 

[Gman86]

Here are some ways to prevent kidney stones:

• Hydrate
  Drink 2–3 liters of fluids per day, depending on your activity level and how much you sweat. Water is best, but you can also drink citrus drinks like lemonade and orange juice, tea, and coffee. Diluting your urine with fluids prevents kidney stones from forming and growing.
• Limit salt
  Sodium causes your kidneys to excrete more calcium, which increases your chances of developing kidney stones. Try to limit your sodium intake to 2,300 milligrams per day. You can check food labels for sodium content, or ask about it when eating out. You can also try cooking from scratch and avoiding processed and fast foods, canned soups and vegetables, and lunch meats.
• Adjust your diet
  Consider eating less animal protein, like meat, eggs, fish, and shellfish, and avoiding foods that are high in oxalate, like spinach, walnuts, and chocolate. Eating animal protein increases the amount of acids your kidneys have to process, which can reduce the excretion of substances that help prevent kidney stones. You can also try getting enough calcium, but not too much, in the form of milk, cheese, or yogurt (about 1,000–1,200 milligrams per day).
• Maintain a healthy weight
  Being overweight or obese can put stress on your kidneys, so try to lose weight gradually and safely. Crash dieting can also increase your risk of kidney stones.
  
  View attachment 46573
  NHS
  
  Preventing kidney stones - NHS
  Contents. ... The best way to prevent kidney stones is to make sure you drink plenty of water each day to avoid becoming dehydrated. To prevent stones returning...

Or u can just avoid eating the foods that have moderate to high levels of oxalates, and not have to worry about ever getting kidney stones in the first place lol

And avoiding animal meat to avoid kidney stones is so silly. Animal meat has nothing to do with getting kidney stones. U’ll never find someone doing the lion diet that has kidney stones/ has had them while on the lion diet. And I challenge anyone to even find someone on the carnivore diet that has kidney stones/ has gotten them while on the carnivore diet. So the whole avoiding animal meat to avoid increased acid in ur blood for ur kidneys to filter out is nonsense. Sounds plausible/ like it somewhat makes sense when u don’t understand how the body processes animal meat though

 

[Vince]

Or u can just avoid eating the foods that have moderate to high levels of oxalates, and not have to worry about ever getting kidney stones in the first place lol

And avoiding animal meat to avoid kidney stones is so silly. Animal meat has nothing to do with getting kidney stones. U’ll never find someone doing the lion diet that has kidney stones/ has had them while on the lion diet. And I challenge anyone to even find someone on the carnivore diet that has kidney stones/ has gotten them while on the carnivore diet. So the whole avoiding animal meat to avoid increased acid in ur blood for ur kidneys to filter out is nonsense. Sounds plausible/ like it somewhat makes sense when u don’t understand how the body processes animal meat though

In all honesty, I've never had a kidney stone. Have you? I do know people who have had kidney stones and they definitely were not vegetarians or even into vegetables. More like McDonald type eaters.

Kidney Stones (Holistic) – Health Information Library | PeaceHealth

Find the source and stop the pain of kidney stones. Hard masses that grow from crystals forming in the kidneys, they typically cause severe back pain that may radiate to the groin area. According to research or other evidence, the following self-care steps may be helpful. Drink plenty of fluids...

www.peacehealth.org

 

[Dicky]

Great suggestions so far, I'm going to try some of them.

I've been reading more about the subject, and came across the thread where it was suggested that TRT can lead to stiffer tendons which are more prone to injury. Some members mentioned, somewhat to my shock, that they have suffered from tennis elbow and achilles heel issues which is EXACTLY what I've been dealing with. I starting lifting light weights at the time I started TRT, back in December last year. Some time in late February, I felt it was finally safe to go to failure, for the first time, with some heavier dumbells. Yeah, the first and last time . . . next day I had the dreaded tennis elbow and I've been off to this day waiting for it to heal. The achilles heel has acted up too when I mention a sore foot.

This is a bit of a downer, because my TRT experience is still being assessed, and I don't want to choose to quit. Does the fact that TRT may cause tendon issues bother anyone else? Truth be told I noticed some nice changes in body composition even during the two light months that I was lifting the weights after starting TRT. I really think that if I was able to continue exercising then I would have built some nice muscle. So I wouldn't want this to hold me back (ie can't wait to start lifting again).

I think Vince mentioned in that thread that he had tennis elbow (or achilles heel issues) and treated it with creatinine?

What is your E2 level like? When my E2 gets too low, I notice pain in my knees, fingers and thumb pads. I have to use a lot of testosterone to get my E2 up to 20. Once above 20 those aches go away

 

[granger]

lol ya oxalates arent an issue unless ur eating ALOT of RAW spinach daily(prob have to blend it cold to get enough for most people and not drink enough etc etc and mostly was an issue in pioneer days when certain leafy greens were all they could eat for weeks or chew or drank birch bark). anything that makes ur teeth feel weird has oxalates, otherwise ur fine. wouldn't worry about it as most veggies have very little and once cooked next to zero. earliest records we have of even prehuman remains shows veggies berries etc very much natural for us, infact.

its such a silly argument that "plant defences are bad" when SOOOOOOOO many plants WANT to be eaten and why there is delicious fruit to spread the seeds and surely plants dont want the animals they need to spread seed to die sooner... THINK.. just like some mushrooms are deadly poison but some smell sweet to attract animals to eat and spread spores. i can promise fungi have kept more people alive than have killed, so should we just throw the baby out with bath water? or are we not able to understand nuance? vegans are just as bad not understanding nuances.

veggies are very important as you see all the guys who promoted carnivore are back peddling as finally figured out u need phytonutrients and antioxidants to live optimally ESP if arent eating raw organ meats and contents of animals guts. even joe rogan eats fruits when on "carnivore". remember atkins had a heart attack pretty young.. the idea is just to keep your glucose spikes lower everyones mileage varies everyones absorption of b12 or vitamin C is different aswell.

so many lies in the carnivor community re meat amount in china causing long lifespan.. which of course is a lie as 1. the increase in meat in hong kong has only recently been a thing (ie not part of decades of people living the longest). somehow blogs sell this to people who cannot think. its like a drastic change in USA diet for past 15 years and blame that change for why everyone dies early and obese which ignores full lives not eating the new diet.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Great suggestions so far, I'm going to try some of them.

I've been reading more about the subject, and came across the thread where it was suggested that TRT can lead to stiffer tendons which are more prone to injury. Some members mentioned, somewhat to my shock, that they have suffered from tennis elbow and achilles heel issues which is EXACTLY what I've been dealing with. I starting lifting light weights at the time I started TRT, back in December last year. Some time in late February, I felt it was finally safe to go to failure, for the first time, with some heavier dumbells. Yeah, the first and last time . . . next day I had the dreaded tennis elbow and I've been off to this day waiting for it to heal. The achilles heel has acted up too when I mention a sore foot.

This is a bit of a downer, because my TRT experience is still being assessed, and I don't want to choose to quit. Does the fact that TRT may cause tendon issues bother anyone else? Truth be told I noticed some nice changes in body composition even during the two light months that I was lifting the weights after starting TRT. I really think that if I was able to continue exercising then I would have built some nice muscle. So I wouldn't want this to hold me back (ie can't wait to start lifting again).

I think Vince mentioned in that thread that he had tennis elbow (or achilles heel issues) and treated it with creatinine?

I'm a strong believer that TRT is a net benefit to tendons, however tendons do not grow as fast as muscles so it is important to progress at a moderate pace. I think you are likely dealing with two issues; 1) Older people have to deal with random things in the body causing trouble. That is just a well-known issue and why I recommended what I did, but you just have to fight through it. 2) There is no reason to go to failure and lots of reasons not to. I have not done a set to true failure since about 2010 and overall I am stronger now than I was then. Focus on consistent volume with gradual increases, and always do something for every body part several times per week.

 

[Melody68]

What is your E2 level like? When my E2 gets too low, I notice pain in my knees, fingers and thumb pads. I have to use a lot of testosterone to get my E2 up to 20. Once above 20 those aches go away

I've never had E2 measured, but by coincidence I'm having a blood test tomorrow which will include it. I'll watch for your suggestion and post results when I get them. I'm only taking 60mg/week, but might up it after the test.

 

[Melody68]

I'm a strong believer that TRT is a net benefit to tendons, however tendons do not grow as fast as muscles so it is important to progress at a moderate pace. I think you are likely dealing with two issues; 1) Older people have to deal with random things in the body causing trouble. That is just a well-known issue and why I recommended what I did, but you just have to fight through it. 2) There is no reason to go to failure and lots of reasons not to. I have not done a set to true failure since about 2010 and overall I am stronger now than I was then. Focus on consistent volume with gradual increases, and always do something for every body part several times per week.

Yes, I agree, it is unwise for somebody like me to go to failure when exercising, obviously I wouldn't do it again. And you're also correct that stretches are vital, and hated (I sure don't like them).

I just finished a six week course of Glucosomine/Chondreitin/MSM that I got at Costco. Didn't seem to do anything for me, and I hated taking the three big pills everyday. Maybe I need to take it longer to see results?

 

[Gman86]

In all honesty, I've never had a kidney stone. Have you? I do know people who have had kidney stones and they definitely were not vegetarians or even into vegetables. More like McDonald type eaters.

Kidney Stones (Holistic) – Health Information Library | PeaceHealth

Find the source and stop the pain of kidney stones. Hard masses that grow from crystals forming in the kidneys, they typically cause severe back pain that may radiate to the groin area. According to research or other evidence, the following self-care steps may be helpful. Drink plenty of fluids...

www.peacehealth.org

No I haven’t. And I think as long as a person avoids processed foods, as much as possible, that’s the main thing. Imo, there’s zero point in eating veggies, unless u enjoy eating them. They’re just sources of plant toxins/ defense chemicals, as well as anti nutrients, and are going to be littered with pesticides, unless they’re organic. There’s nothing that we need, that plants offer, that we can’t get from animal foods, without all the things in plants that hurt our overall health. But eating veggies is still way better than consuming processed foods obv

But overall, if a person consumes mostly whole foods, and stays away from processed foods as much as they can, they’ll probably not have to worry too much about getting kidney stones, I would imagine. But it’s just a medical fact that consuming oxalates will increase ur chances of developing kidney stones. So the less oxalates u consume, the less chance u have of developing kidney stones. It’s just that simple. I want people to eat whatever makes them happy tho. Just want people to be aware of certain risks that come with eating certain foods. Once they know, I just want them to do literally whatever is going to increase their overall happiness as much as possible. For some people, the flavor and texture of veggies is enjoyable, and they like to still eat them, even if they know they’re doing more harm than good, by consuming them. Veggies also can help with weight loss, since they’re filling, without being too calorie dense. And obv losing weight, if a person is overweight for their frame, will improve overall health. So it all comes down to balance. The balance that makes a person happiest overall. I just try to spread the word about how consuming veggies/ plants isn’t a smart idea, if a person is consuming them strictly because they think they’re good for them health wise. I’ve eaten veggies in the past, when I didn’t want to, strictly because I thought they were vital for optimal health. So just want to save other people from having to go through the same thing. It’s funny, growing up I always wished it could be the opposite of what it was, in regards to what’s healthy and what’s not healthy. I wished that steak and butter and bacon were what’s healthy, not veggies. And now that I’m an adult, I realize that this is actually the case. Pretty sure that’s the only wish as a kid that actually came true. I also wished to be Spider-Man one day, but still waiting on that wish to come to fruition, unfortunately

 

[Gman86]

I've never had E2 measured, but by coincidence I'm having a blood test tomorrow which will include it. I'll watch for your suggestion and post results when I get them. I'm only taking 60mg/week, but might up it after the test.

Ya ur dose might be too low. If ur on cypionate, ur only getting about 40mg/ week, of actually testosterone in ur system, after factoring in the cypionate ester. Ur E2 could definitely be too low on this dose.

Obv TRT isn’t the same as guys on steroids, but just thinking about how I never hear guys on steroids, say like 500mg of test per week, or more, complaining about the pains ur are, if they didn’t have them prior to going on cycle. Which makes me think that ur issue might be from something like not enough estrogen, rather than the testosterone shutting down something in ur body, and resulting in the pains ur referring to. If ur pain was from something the exogenous test was shutting down, I feel like we would hear about guys on very high test cycles complaining about pains like this left and right