Testosterone propionate supposedly the best ester?

[BadassBlues]

Yeah, I was shocked by the professionalism around the packaging and documentation provided. Really impressive for a UGL.

They sell two test propionate formulas with different concentrations. The standard 100 mg/mL formula contains both BB and BA. The 50 mg/mL formula contains only BA as preservative.

Can you DM me the source?

 

[Seagal]

How long were you on the Androgel and at what dosage?

About 1.5yrs, 2 pumps

 

[Mr_Fusion]

How long were you on the Androgel and at what dosage?

I was on the gel for nine months at three pumps. I'm feeling so much better on the injections and will never go back to the goo. Plus my hair stopped falling out!

 

[Iron Gator]

Esters are just timed release mechanisms. Once peak plasma concentration is reached and assuming dose is kept consistent, it should make zero difference. That is at least what the literature says.

Propionate has the benefit of getting plasma levels up more quickly because of the ester. It also gets out of the system more quickly.

I was watching a video with this guy last night and he mentioned propionate. I believe the amount he takes causes his levels to be well outside the accepted normal range.

But if the doses he takes aren’t hurting him in the long run then more power to him. There is a tipping point from healthy levels to unhealthy. I’m not at all sure what that is though. Probably different for everyone.

 

[camygod]

Esters are just timed release mechanisms. Once peak plasma concentration is reached and assuming dose is kept consistent, it should make zero difference. That is at least what the literature says.

Propionate has the benefit of getting plasma levels up more quickly because of the ester. It also gets out of the system more quickly.

I was watching a video with this guy last night and he mentioned propionate. I believe the amount he takes causes his levels to be well outside the accepted normal range.

But if the doses he takes aren’t hurting him in the long run then more power to him. There is a tipping point from healthy levels to unhealthy. I’m not at all sure what that is though. Probably different for everyone.

Crotex labs I just don't trust alot of what he says
But I appreciate the self experiments
It's.bullshit that he says 280mg isn't a cycle if your running doses that get you way about levels you would never be able to achieve naturally
3000ng/dl isn't trt
Doesn't mean it will necessarily be bad for him
But still
Don't know how he suddenly thinks he is some trt guru I find that shit hard to accept

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Esters are just timed release mechanisms. Once peak plasma concentration is reached and assuming dose is kept consistent, it should make zero difference. That is at least what the literature says.

All it takes is for you as an individual to run a single experiment, switching from a long ester to propionate or vice versa. This idea that the esters are all equivalent in their effects won't survive that experience.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Crotex labs I just don't trust alot of what he says
But I appreciate the self experiments
It's.bullshit that he says 280mg isn't a cycle if your running doses that get you way about levels you would never be able to achieve naturally
3000ng/dl isn't trt
Doesn't mean it will necessarily be bad for him
But still
Don't know how he suddenly thinks he is some trt guru I find that shit hard to accept

Well, how does anyone become a TRT guru? If he's experimenting on enough guys, over enough years, with a non-dogmatic and open-minded approach, he's going to eventually become one, after reaching a critical mass of unsanctioned clinical practice. In other words, he's faking it till he makes it (and he will eventually make it).

He disappointed me by responding with defensive snark in our one exchange in his YouTube comments, but still, you have to respect the hustle.

 

[camygod]

Well, how does anyone become a TRT guru? If he's experimenting on enough guys, over enough years, with a non-dogmatic and open-minded approach, he's going to eventually become one, after reaching a critical mass of unsanctioned clinical practice. In other words, he's faking it till he makes it (and he will eventually make it).

He disappointed me by responding with defensive snark in our one exchange in his YouTube comments, but still, you have to respect the hustle.

Your right in a way I guess
not that i completely agree but I respect your position and what you say

 

[Iron Gator]

All it takes is for you as an individual to run a single experiment, switching from a long ester to propionate or vice versa. This idea that the esters are all equivalent in their effects won't survive that experience.

I was speaking from years of direct experience with testosterone esters; cypionate, enanthate, propionate.also other compounds in cycles. I found no magic in propionate.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I was speaking from years of direct experience with testosterone esters; cypionate, enanthate, propionate.also other compounds in cycles. I found no magic in propionate.

What kind of dosages are we talking about here? Have you made any comparisons in the TRT range? If we're talking like 500 mg+ weekly, I wouldn't be surprised if ester differences disappear in the context of levels that remain massively supraphysiologic at all times.

I'm sorry if you haven't experienced it - the magic is real my friend!

 

[Gman86]

All it takes is for you as an individual to run a single experiment, switching from a long ester to propionate or vice versa. This idea that the esters are all equivalent in their effects won't survive that experience.

Well said. Plus literature absolutely doesn’t say that once peak concentrations in the blood are achieved, all esters of test have the same effects. Test attached to very quick esters show less suppression on downstream hormones/ have less of a negative impact on fertility. Here’s a few vids where they talk about the differences they notice with prop. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what the literature says. All that matters is what people experience in the real world, and in the real world, u can find numerous anecdotes where guys switched to test prop, and felt significantly better, compared to longer ester forms of test. All those anecdotes easily prove that all forms of test do no react the exact same way, when used at the same dose and injection frequency, once the blood levels reach peak concentration

 

[Gman86]

I was speaking from years of direct experience with testosterone esters; cypionate, enanthate, propionate.also other compounds in cycles. I found no magic in propionate.

Ya I don’t think I’ve personally noticed any differences either, over the years using it here and there

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Test attached to very quick esters show less suppression on downstream hormones/ have less of a negative impact on fertility.

This is very likely one of the mechanisms for the observed benefits. @Jerajera has measured significantly higher DHEA levels while on prop than cypionate as an example. Also, simply giving your brain and tissues a break from constant supraphysiologic levels is likely helpful, allowing neurons to rest and recharge, maintain sensitivity to the increased dopamine instead of downregulating everything, etc.

 

[Forty2]

Yeah, I was shocked by the professionalism around the packaging and documentation provided. Really impressive for a UGL.

They sell two test propionate formulas with different concentrations. The standard 100 mg/mL formula contains both BB and BA. The 50 mg/mL formula contains only BA as preservative.

Do you know what % BB the 100mg/mL formula contains?

 

[Jerajera]

@Jerajera has measured significantly higher DHEA levels while on prop than cypionate as an example

Yup, and same with cream actually, my DHEA-S levels came back to 95% of pre-TRT baseline. On Cyptionate my DHEA-S drops to 60% lower than pre-TRT.

My thytoid values are also much better. TSH drops from 2.5-3 to ~1 and Free T3 goes up from ~3 to ~4.

Those effects have been systematic over ~40 blood tests over 4-5 years.

Anecdotally my girlfriend has also mentioned (without any knowledge of my protocol changes) that my balls are bigger and fuller on Prop and cream protocols, and I notice it too. Loads are also larger, libido significantly higher and erection quality teenage levels.

Energy in the gym and in general is also much, much higher.

Unfortunately for me at least (and a few others I know or whose experiences I've read about), Prop aromatizes way more than longer esters and high E2 is a disaster in my case, leading to significant water retention -> high blood pressure -> constant headaches, spicy nipples -> gyno, unstable moods (mania or/and depression), crazy anxiety (panic attacks), etc...

After experimenting with a lot of different modalities and protocols over the years, I'm convinced I need to both minimize HPTA suppression, either by limiting suppressive factors (using short esters instead of long ones, for ex) or supplementing hormones shut down by exogenous T (hCG, Preg/DHEA supplementation), and control E2.

The latter is absolutely a requirement. Some men don't aromatize much and won't need to control E2. Those men typically cannot wrap their heads around the possibility that other men don't have the same optimal T->E2 conversion rate they do and will gaslight those other men into thinking they're crazy for wanting to lower their E2 from 3x the range into something better for them.

The protocol I'm currently trying is a baseline of Primo to control E2 (10mg/day for now) and a short ester (either Prop or Phenylprop) I'll replace the Test E I'm currently using with once the Primo reaches steady state and is doing its work antagonizing E2.

I'm very hopeful the combination of less HPTA suppression with a short ester of Test and the E2 control and mood/libido/cognition benefits from the DHT derivative can be fine tuned into a very good protocol.

After that I might try to add back Pregnenolone and/or DHEA, which I get amazing benefits from initially until E2 skyrockets and I get bloated, anxious but lethargic (great combo), etc...

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Do you know what % BB the 100mg/mL formula contains?

No, unfortunately they don't publish that information. I would guess it is within the standard 10-20% range that compounding pharmacies use.

 

[camygod]

Yup, and same with cream actually, my DHEA-S levels came back to 95% of pre-TRT baseline. On Cyptionate my DHEA-S drops to 60% lower than pre-TRT.

My thytoid values are also much better. TSH drops from 2.5-3 to ~1 and Free T3 goes up from ~3 to ~4.

Those effects have been systematic over ~40 blood tests over 4-5 years.

Anecdotally my girlfriend has also mentioned (without any knowledge of my protocol changes) that my balls are bigger and fuller on Prop and cream protocols, and I notice it too. Loads are also larger, libido significantly higher and erection quality teenage levels.

Energy in the gym and in general is also much, much higher.

Unfortunately for me at least (and a few others I know or whose experiences I've read about), Prop aromatizes way more than longer esters and high E2 is a disaster in my case, leading to significant water retention -> high blood pressure -> constant headaches, spicy nipples -> gyno, unstable moods (mania or/and depression), crazy anxiety (panic attacks), etc...

After experimenting with a lot of different modalities and protocols over the years, I'm convinced I need to both minimize HPTA suppression, either by limiting suppressive factors (using short esters instead of long ones, for ex) or supplementing hormones shut down by exogenous T (hCG, Preg/DHEA supplementation), and control E2.

The latter is absolutely a requirement. Some men don't aromatize much and won't need to control E2. Those men typically cannot wrap their heads around the possibility that other men don't have the same optimal T->E2 conversion rate they do and will gaslight those other men into thinking they're crazy for wanting to lower their E2 from 3x the range into something better for them.

The protocol I'm currently trying is a baseline of Primo to control E2 (10mg/day for now) and a short ester (either Prop or Phenylprop) I'll replace the Test E I'm currently using with once the Primo reaches steady state and is doing its work antagonizing E2.

I'm very hopeful the combination of less HPTA suppression with a short ester of Test, as well as the E2 control and mood/libido/cognition benefits from the DHT derivative can be fine tuned into a very good protocol.

After that I might try to add back Pregnenolone and/or DHEA, which I get amazing benefits from initially until E2 skyrockets and I get bloated, anxious but lethargic (great combo), etc...

What does of prop do you plan to use ?
And good luck hope it works out for you

 

[Jerajera]

What does of prop do you plan to use ?
And good luck hope it works out for you

Thanks man, I'll update this thread and others of course if I see any sustained success with it.

I think I'll start with 12-15mg/day. Prop has been too stimulating for me historically and anxiety driving, but I think this might be due to E2 skyrocketing and I might be fine with the Primo in there keeping E2 down.

It might also just be that my levels vary too much and I don't do well past a certain degree of variation. According to my labs when I tested both peak and trough levels on 15mg/day Prop, my Free T levels varied by 50 or even 55%.

I think I remember @Cataceous mentioning at the time that the largest diurnal variation typically seen in young men was around 40%, with a mean around 25% (could be wrong here), so ~50% is significantly beyond natural variation and Test Phenylprop might be closer to natural variation.

Of course aiming for the same degree of variation in T levels as that of a young man only makes sense if we assume no HPTA suppression. If there is HPTA suppression, then even if you can fine tune some Test E to Test P ratio to an optimal degree of variation, you will still get HPTA suppression and suffer negative side effects accordingly in the long term.

In that sense, Prop might be better if tolerable despite a greater than natural degree of variation in T levels since it'll lead to less HPTA suppression.

Just to be clear, there is always some degree of suppression. The important thing, which seems to elude many people, is that suppression is not a binary thing, it's a matter of degree, and the difference between 90% and 60% suppression (numbers pulled out of my ass more or less, although there is a study out there with numbers I think fairly close to that) might be completely life changing.

And of course as @FunkOdyssey alluded to, less downregulation/desensitization of Dopamine receptors and others might also be what contributes to feeling better in some ways on shorter esters, not just less HPTA suppression. This is all extremely complex.

TLDR; long story short I'll probably start with Prop around 12-15mg/day with Primo at 10mg/day and adjust accordingly. If I can't fine tune Prop I'll give Phenylprop a try and then start thinking about adding Preg/DHEA/hCG/Kisspeptin.

 

[madman]

Thanks man, I'll update this thread and others of course if I see any sustained success with it.

I think I'll start with 12-15mg/day. Prop has been too stimulating for me historically and anxiety driving, but I think this might be due to E2 skyrocketing and I might be fine with the Primo in there keeping E2 down.

It might also just be that my levels vary too much and I don't do well past a certain degree of variation. According to my labs when I tested both peak and trough levels on 15mg/day Prop, my Free T levels varied by 50 or even 55%.

I think I remember @Cataceous mentioning at the time that the largest diurnal variation typically seen in young men was around 40%, with a mean around 25% (could be wrong here), so ~50% is significantly beyond natural variation and Test Phenylprop might be closer to natural variation.

Of course aiming for the same degree of variation in T levels as that of a young man only makes sense if we assume no HPTA suppression. If there is HPTA suppression, then even if you can fine tune some Test E to Test P ratio to an optimal degree of variation, you will still get HPTA suppression and suffer negative side effects accordingly in the long term.

In that sense, Prop might be better if tolerable despite a greater than natural degree of variation in T levels since it'll lead to less HPTA suppression.

Just to be clear, there is always some degree of suppression. The important thing, which seems to elude many people, is that suppression is not a binary thing, it's a matter of degree, and the difference between 90% and 60% suppression (numbers pulled out of my ass more or less, although there is a study out there with numbers I think fairly close to that) might be completely life changing.

And of course as @FunkOdyssey alluded to, less downregulation/desensitization of Dopamine receptors and others might also be what contributes to feeling better in some ways on shorter esters, not just less HPTA suppression. This is all extremely complex.

TLDR; long story short I'll probably start with Prop around 12-15mg/day with Primo at 10mg/day and adjust accordingly. If I can't fine tune Prop I'll give Phenylprop a try and then start thinking about adding Preg/DHEA/hCG/Kisspeptin.

Need to be more specific here when speaking in terms of less suppression, impact on fertility let alone dopamine!

Again this is thrown out the window with daily prop if you are one who pushes your peak TT/FT and more importantly trough up too high.

Many jumping on the TP bandwagon especially those idiots with that more T is better mentality are running around with absurdly high peak FT levels let alone high/absurdly high troughs!

This will result in a strong suppression of the hpta.

Again look up the PK/half-life TP vs oral TU vs Natesto!

Oral TU is dosed twice-daily (2 peaks/troughs).

There is still a strong suppression of the hpta when using Jatenzo.

When using daily short-acting TP the T levels achieved peak vs trough let alone the time period over those 24 hrs T levels are elevated whether mid-range/high/absurdly high will still result in a strong suppression of the hpta.

Again many are running way too high a peak land more importantly trough FT level when using a daily TP protocol!

You have guys injecting 25-30 mg TP daily which is a whopping f**king dose!

If anything the main advantage when using TP would be the daily peak/trough!

This may have a positive impact on energy, mood, libido and sleep for some.

The OP of this thread is one of the few that is using a low daily dose of TP without pushing his peak absurdly high let alone trough FT too high!

Keep in mind he had his first set of labs done 12 hrs post-injection so he clearly missed testing at peak!

Natural Test Shut Down

Howdy, Basic question--I tried the search feature but could not find definitive information on the following. The specific question: Is there a dosing of Testosterone Enanthate (in mg per week) below which you can expect to preserve what is left of natural testosterone production? Does the...

www.excelmale.com

T Propionate protocol

Well only 8mg of straight Prop peaked me at 1200 TT ! since Tprop would quickly taper off question is how long after injection. TBH the blood levels are way overvalued by most in T community. most of the action happens at the receptor you can't measure that. i completely ignore all those...

www.excelmale.com

Androgen modulation of mesoprefrontal dopamine systems and the effects of these actions on the adult male brain

Again would tread lightly on how high you run your trough/steady-state FT level! This can easily backfire in the long-run for many especially when it comes to mood, libido and erectile function! Too high a FT level can be just as bad in many ways as having too low a FT level. Libido starts in...

www.excelmale.com

*dopamine circuits are powerfully regulated by androgens

*androgens as potent modulators of prefrontal cortical operations and of closely related, functionally critical measures of prefrontal dopamine level or tone

*androgens dynamically control meso prefrontal dopamine systems and impact prefrontal states of hypo- and hyper-dopaminergia

*dopamine-dependent prefrontal operations appear to universally follow inverted U shaped functions

* androgens maintain a lifelong capacity to bidirectionally modulate prefrontal dopamine tone

*By targeting enzymes and signaling molecules associated with androgenic metabolites of testosterone (Fig 1), these studies more directly implicate androgens in modulating prefrontal function. They also show that both supranormal androgen stimulation and androgen deficiency negatively affects prefrontal operations (Fig 2A). This inverted U- shaped function is similar to that described for functional meso prefrontal dopamine settings (Cools R and D'Esposito M, 2011; Cools R et al.,2019; Floresco SB, 2013; Floresco SB and Magyar O, 2006)

*The data also demonstrate an inverted U-shaped function that describes these dopamine effects. According to this function, prefrontal dopamine levels— often referred to as prefrontal dopamine tone- that are either higher or lower than a functionally optimal set point are detrimental to behavior and circuit function (Fig 2B).

 

[madman]

*My dosage on test propionate has been 10mg per day (IM), along with 75iu of HCG per day (SQ) before bed


Even then he sure as hell is not hypogonadal 25 hrs post f**king injection!

70 mg T + 525 IU hCG/week!

His 1 hr post true trough FT is still descent as he is hitting a robust trough TT 571 ng/dL with normal SHBG!




OP of this thread!

My blood results on test propionate

For the last 3 months, I have been taking testosterone propionate for TRT. Prior to that, I was taking testosterone phenylpropionate at 10mg per day, along with 75iu of HCG per day. For the record, I would say I feel better on test propionate then test phenylpropionate. Libido has gotten a tad...

www.excelmale.com

For the last 3 months, I have been taking testosterone propionate for TRT. Prior to that, I was taking testosterone phenylpropionate at 10mg per day, along with 75iu of HCG per day. For the record, I would say I feel better on test propionate then test phenylpropionate. Libido has gotten a tad bit better. My dosage on test propionate has been 10mg per day (IM), along with 75iu of HCG per day (SQ) before bed. I had 2 test done over a 25 hour period. My doctor did not want to include SHBG on the first test. Here are my results. Any thoughts ?




12 hours after injection

Estradiol 29 pg/mL
Testosterone total 790 ng/dL
Testosterone free 17.6 ng/dL

25 hours after injection

Estradiol 26 pg/mL
Testosterone total 571 ng/dL
Testosterone free 12 ng/dL
SHBG 31.4 nmol/L
Albumin 4.7 g/dL