Support natural T instead of replacing?

[sammmy]

You may want to try Nettle Root Extract (root not leaves). I've used the one by Solaray and it was acting like antidepressant and stimulant, but was not able to sleep well on it. Clomiphene has the exact same effect on me.

Nettle Root extract is believed to increase free testosterone by displacing it from being bound to SHBG, but it is a complex natural mixture and probably has many more targets in the body.

 

[Tintin]

You may want to try Nettle Root Extract (root not leaves). I've used the one by Solaray and it was acting like antidepressant and stimulant, but was not able to sleep well on it. Clomiphene has the exact same effect on me.

Nettle Root extract is believed to increase free testosterone by displacing it from being bound to SHBG, but it is a complex natural mixture and probably has many more targets in the body.

Oh, that reminds me, I did have a side effect on enclomiphene. I started having a more challenging time peeing. I was recommended nettle root extract, and it did alleviate the problem. I discontinued it after stopping enclomiphene, but based on what you said I will start taking it again and check it's potential to raise my free testosterone. Another supplement that was recommended to me is calcium-d-glucarate, which supposedly rids the body of excess estrogen.

 

[CKO]

I'm on trt now, but highly considering coming off and trying enclomiphene again.

 

[Systemlord]

As I understand, if the ingested testosterone is methylated, it's hard on the liver. Are you experiencing any side effects?

Jatenzo bypasses the liver on the first pass, the clinical trials show no liver toxicity.

No side effects other than a minor elevation in hematocrit and hemoglobin, but both are dropping as I get my vitamin D levels higher.

Low vitamin D = dehydration -> increases hemoglobin and hematocrit.

My ALT levels were checked recently and are 19.

That's incredibly brave of you to keep trying even after such adversity.

Four and a half years of trying different formulations of TRT, I never gave up, as bad off as I was I couldn't afford to because I was fighting for my life.

 

[ghce]

It's an interesting perspective. I had the idea to cycle on and off nasal testosterone after watching this video where Leo and Lucy discuss supplementing with testosterone during difficult life circumstances:

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YouTube search on Natesto lead me to this video:

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I have gained almost 40 pounds since December 2021. My total T was around 350 when I was leaner, and interestingly, my free T was comparable to that of my personal trainer at the time, even though his total T was around 1000 naturally. Getting leaner has an enormous impact on my well-being and my sexual health. Right now, though, I struggle mightily to lose weight. It's really slow going, and my motivation and focus are poor. Fortunately, I'm not depressed, and I'm probably much better off than other men. Nevertheless, since men report an almost immediate effect on Natesto, I thought I could take it for a month to get myself going and establish a regular training routine. My hope is it will help me lose weight faster and make effort feel better. It might also preserve muscle as I lose fat. Then I don't mind stopping for a month to let my hormone system reset or possibly support it in other ways indirectly with supplements. It's possible that the risk is not worth the reward, but to me, it seems a month of use is an acceptable risk.

I was recommended enclomiphene citrate because it generally has fewer side effects compared to clomiphene, and I tried it a couple of months ago. 12.5 mg per day. The timing was bad, though, because I had peak stress. Unfortunately, my LH, free testosterone, T3, adrenaline, and noradrenaline shot outside the normal ranges. That was after just two weeks of use. It did give me insight into the difference in how I feel with higher testosterone, even despite stress hormones being higher than normal. I hammered out work on the computer and wanted more. It felt easy. I started having morning erections again. I felt more resilient. I also learned that my testies have the potential to produce enough testosterone to make me feel good. So, if I can have some of that without the increase in stress hormones, I welcome it. I may consider also using enclomiphene in a cyclic manner as well as I didn't experience any side effects aside from those coming from increased adrenaline and noradrenaline. For example, 6 mg first 2-3 days of the week for four weeks, then two weeks off. It has a long tail, and again I would give my system a break. I would also dial caffeine intake way down while taking the enclomiphene citrate. And definitely do weekly or bi-weekly blood tests.

Unfortunately I cant get Enclomiphene but Clomid seems to do the trick.

I have been on and off it for long periods of time ( up to a year at a time) but after lots of experimentation and logical reasoning what I am doing now seems to work very well with none of the sides that Clomid usually entails.

I am cycling Clomid, initailly I took clomid EOD at 25mg for 3 weeks this put my T level at a very comfortable point with good LH and FSH and ensuing huge Testes.

I stopped Clomid for 4 weeks then resumed for 1 week EOD 25mg.

The results have been amazing with a return of nocturnal erections for both the 3 week period of clomid and the 4 week period with no clomid and then again with the 1 week resume.
The quality of Nocturnal erection has seen a steady improvement over the entire period.

During the Clomid treatments I have hammered down E2 with twice weekly doses of an AI 0.25 mg.
Mood has been fantastic! unlike normal Clomid and TRT protocols where I was either in an anxious state or full on road rage personality.

Another interesting side affect has been a huge reduction in appetite ( thank god!).
pre Hypogonadism I was 87.5 KG but successive years on TRT has seen me balloon to 110 KG.
There is a lot of extra muscle mass but fat also, jury is still out as to whether this lack of appetite will translate to significant weight loss, fingers crossed.

And yet another plus has been a return of libido which was absent under standard Clomid protocols and as the years have gone by also on TRT.

 

[Tintin]

Unfortunately I cant get Enclomiphene but Clomid seems to do the trick.

I have been on and off it for long periods of time ( up to a year at a time) but after lots of experimentation and logical reasoning what I am doing now seems to work very well with none of the sides that Clomid usually entails.

I am cycling Clomid, initailly I took clomid EOD at 25mg for 3 weeks this put my T level at a very comfortable point with good LH and FSH and ensuing huge Testes.

I stopped Clomid for 4 weeks then resumed for 1 week EOD 25mg.

The results have been amazing with a return of nocturnal erections for both the 3 week period of clomid and the 4 week period with no clomid and then again with the 1 week resume.
The quality of Nocturnal erection has seen a steady improvement over the entire period.

During the Clomid treatments I have hammered down E2 with twice weekly doses of an AI 0.25 mg.
Mood has been fantastic! unlike normal Clomid and TRT protocols where I was either in an anxious state or full on road rage personality.

Another interesting side affect has been a huge reduction in appetite ( thank god!).
pre Hypogonadism I was 87.5 KG but successive years on TRT has seen me balloon to 110 KG.
There is a lot of extra muscle mass but fat also, jury is still out as to whether this lack of appetite will translate to significant weight loss, fingers crossed.

And yet another plus has been a return of libido which was absent under standard Clomid protocols and as the years have gone by also on TRT.

This is very useful. What do you do after the 1 week resume to close the cycle? What AI did you use? You confirm the point another poster made about not taking enclomiphene daily.

I'd add to what you say to stay away from stimulants as much as possible while on enclomiphene, especially if like me, you have generous adrenals. If you're a coffee drinker, I'd reduce to quarter caff or whatever is enough to avoid headaches and other discomfort. Also, I wouldn't start Clomid again during peak stress.

An idea I had is to buy a set of these Maximize Fertility, Relieve Scrotal Pain for when I'm on enclomiphene. Reason is that Leydig cells are temperature sensitive and work better at cooler temperatures. That will allow using less enclomiphene to produce the same amount of T, hopefully keeping LH inside the reference interval. It matters for long-term use of enclomiphene because of the effect LH has on the thyroid.

Precisely because enclomiphene raises LH production high, which has a strong effect on the thyroid, and because it can raise stress hormones, I'm going to cycle between enclomiphene and nasal testosterone gel. A poster mentioned earlier in this thread a generic nasal testosterone gel from Empower Pharmacy, and I asked them if there's an agent in the gel that improves transdermal transport. They replied:


'Here are some key features that our gel formulation base has.

• Can be used in male and female patients
• Non-alcohol base that has shown to deliver more testosterone through the skin than hydro-alcoholic solutions
• Alleviates drying of the skin that might occur with other bases
• Quickly absorbed smooth texture that doesn’t leave a greasy residue
• Formulated without alcohol, parabens or mineral oil'

I take that to mean, no, it doesn't have a transdermal boosting agent. It's a quality gel with pure testosterone it in. It's useful to know when finding a compounding pharmacy outside the US.

This is the cycle I'm going to try based on what I have learned so far:

Month 1:

• Natesto three times per day. I'd use generic nasal testosterone gel, though, to keep costs down.
• 500 mg calcium-d-glucarate twice per week (Monday and Thursday). To control estrogen.
• 250 stinging nettle root extract daily. For prostate health.

Month 2:

• 12.5 mg enclomiphene citrate every other day. Potentially every third day as I respond strongly to enclomiphene. I'll figure out the right amount with blood tests. One after two weeks, one after a month.
• 500 mg calcium-d-glucarate twice per week (Monday and Thursday). To control estrogen.
• 250 stinging nettle root extract daily. For prostate health.

Month 3:

• 500 mg calcium-d-glucarate twice per week (Monday and Thursday). To control estrogen.
• 250 stinging nettle root extract daily. For prostate health.

The idea in month 3 is to ride the enclomiphene tail as you suggested, and let the body reset. Also, any slight suppression from the nasal testosterone, the enclomiphene will help reverse. At the end of month three, I would start back on month 1. I look forward to testing this out. If it works for the long term with manageable sides, I can see myself repeating this cycle indefinitely. Because the benefits I saw were real:

• I could function just fine on days with not enough sleep
• Night-time peeing stopped (Normally I get up 2-3 times per night. I must be deficient in a hormone that controls peeing)
• Reduced evening hunger (I'm usually ravenously hungry in the evening)
• Pain from injuries disappeared (I have a small injury in my elbow from training when I was too exhausted, and one in my back from long driving golf)
• Natural boner action returned
• Higher libido
• Doing work felt like a breeze

 

[ghce]

After the 1 week clomid resume I will cease for 4 weeks again though I might look at increasing that up to 6 weeks as nocturnal erections had not lessened and mood was excellent so I am thinking I need to explore the parameters a bit further to see if there are other benefits to be had with increasing the non treatment period.
One of the primary reasons other than that TRT is failing is for fertility and the shrunken testes on TRT does my head in especially when the scrotum just feels like a lifeless sack.
I wish Enclomiphene were available here in my country as I might be able to rig a better performing protocol but the clomid does seem to work when used less and for short periods only.

 

[Tintin]

After the 1 week clomid resume I will cease for 4 weeks again though I might look at increasing that up to 6 weeks as nocturnal erections had not lessened and mood was excellent so I am thinking I need to explore the parameters a bit further to see if there are other benefits to be had with increasing the non treatment period.
One of the primary reasons other than that TRT is failing is for fertility and the shrunken testes on TRT does my head in especially when the scrotum just feels like a lifeless sack.
I wish Enclomiphene were available here in my country as I might be able to rig a better performing protocol but the clomid does seem to work when used less and for short periods only.

I used enclomiphene citrate from Enclomiphene Citrate - Receptor Chem - Buy UK EU USA | 99% Pure. They stealth ship internationally, and I received it with no issues. This is not a recommendation, just what I did. After ordering, it took some time for them to ship, but they shipped immediately after I nudged them in with a mail. Next time I will nudge them without waiting first. The product is in liquid form, which gives more dosing flexibility. It's bitter, but I mixed it in a shot glass with lemon juice, which made it go down easy enough. I plan to continue using their product.

 

[Forty2]

Oh, that reminds me, I did have a side effect on enclomiphene. I started having a more challenging time peeing. I was recommended nettle root extract, and it did alleviate the problem. I discontinued it after stopping enclomiphene, but based on what you said I will start taking it again and check it's potential to raise my free testosterone. Another supplement that was recommended to me is calcium-d-glucarate, which supposedly rids the body of excess estrogen.

I got more muscle and joint pain on enclomiphene and also more brain fog. Did you not experience those side effects?
Also, 25mg/day only raised my LH from 1 to 4 even though TT went to top of range and FT above top of range. I wonder why my LH did not go any higher?

 

[Tintin]

I got more muscle and joint pain on enclomiphene and also more brain fog. Did you not experience those side effects?
Also, 25mg/day only raised my LH from 1 to 4 even though TT went to top of range and FT above top of range. I wonder why my LH did not go any higher?

I did not experience those side effects. Do you think maybe you had an allergic reaction to either the enclomiphene, or some other component in the product you were using? I'm just guessing, of course, but the sore joints and brain fog reminded me of what I can feel like eating wheat, milk, or seed oils when I'm very stressed. They are not allergies, but rather food sensitivities when I'm overly stressed.

What does TT and FT mean?

 

[ghce]

I did not experience those side effects. Do you think maybe you had an allergic reaction to either the enclomiphene, or some other component in the product you were using? I'm just guessing, of course, but the sore joints and brain fog reminded me of what I can feel like eating wheat, milk, or seed oils when I'm very stressed. They are not allergies, but rather food sensitivities when I'm overly stressed.

What does TT and FT mean?

Total Testosterone and Free Testosterone

 

[HarryCat2]

Once daily application of low dose testosterone cream (3mg) has also been shown not to suppress LH and FSH. The study claims an improvement in aging male symptom (AMS) scores even at such a low dose.

The efficacy and safety of short-acting testosterone ointment (Glowmin) for late-onset hypogonadism in accordance with testosterone circadian rhythm

 

[Tintin]

Total Testosterone and Free Testosterone

Sounds to me like your testes produce testosterone efficiently. In comparison, my LH went to 9.9 mIU/ml to bring my free testosterone to 701. That was on 12.5 mg daily for two weeks. Unfortunately, my noradrenalin went to 704 pg/ml, which is above the recommended range. Could that have happened to you as well, and that's what gave you brain fog? Did you experience any anxiety?

 

[Tintin]

Once daily application of low dose testosterone cream (3mg) has also been shown not to suppress LH and FSH. The study claims an improvement in aging male symptom (AMS) scores even at such a low dose.

The efficacy and safety of short-acting testosterone ointment (Glowmin) for late-onset hypogonadism in accordance with testosterone circadian rhythm

Oh, that's very interesting. I will definitely check out that study.

 

[Forty2]

I did not experience those side effects. Do you think maybe you had an allergic reaction to either the enclomiphene, or some other component in the product you were using? I'm just guessing, of course, but the sore joints and brain fog reminded me of what I can feel like eating wheat, milk, or seed oils when I'm very stressed. They are not allergies, but rather food sensitivities when I'm overly stressed.

What does TT and FT mean?

TT is total testosterone and FT is free testosterone.
I don't have any allergies.

 

[JmarkH]

Tintin: Why are you trying "cycles?" What are your goals? If it's to feel better and maximize health, why not find what works and stick with it? If you've not had specific side effects, don't assume you will get them.

 

[Tintin]

Tintin: Why are you trying "cycles?" What are your goals? If it's to feel better and maximize health, why not find what works and stick with it? If you've not had specific side effects, don't assume you will get them.

My goals are precisely what you say; to raise my testosterone, feel better, and maximize my health. As you can understand from the thread, I want to increase my testosterone levels without shutting down the HPTA.

The reason I'm thinking about cycling is that I don't think my nose will tolerate the testosterone gel for extended periods of time. My nasal cavity is already fairly narrow, and if it becomes inflamed, it could seriously affect my sleep. Time will tell if it works for a month. If not, I will have to try narrowing the nasal test window from a month to a couple of weeks or even a week if necessary.

Based on what I have learned in this thread so far, I have the following tools at my disposal:

- Enclomiphene citrate
- Nasal testosterone gel
- Low-dose testosterone cream (as HarryCat2 pointed out previously)

In line with what you are suggesting, another way to do this is:

Monday:

Nasal testosterone (one application in the morning)
12.5 mg enclomiphene citrate
500 mg calcium-d-glucarate
250 mg stinging nettle root extract

Tuesday:

Nasal testosterone (one application in the morning)
250 mg stinging nettle root extract

Wednesday:
Low-dose testosterone cream (One application in the morning. You have to put it on the scrotum, which I find slightly inconvenient, but it serves the purpose of giving the nose rest)
12.5 mg enclomiphene citrate
250 mg stinging nettle root extract

Thursday:
Low-dose testosterone cream (one application in the morning)
500 mg calcium-d-glucarate
250 mg stinging nettle root extract

Friday:

Nasal testosterone (one application in the morning)
12.5 mg enclomiphene citrate
500 mg calcium-d-glucarate
250 mg stinging nettle root extract

Saturday:

Nasal testosterone (one application in the morning)
250 mg stinging nettle root extract

Sunday:

Low-dose testosterone cream (One application in the morning)
12.5 mg enclomiphene citrate
250 mg stinging nettle root extract

--
I would dial in the doses with blood tests but basically switch between nasal testosterone and scrotal test cream every two days and a dose of enclomiphene citrate every second day. With the right doses, this program could potentially work indefinitely.

 

[sammmy]

Once daily application of low dose testosterone cream (3mg) has also been shown not to suppress LH and FSH. The study claims an improvement in aging male symptom (AMS) scores even at such a low dose.

The efficacy and safety of short-acting testosterone ointment (Glowmin) for late-onset hypogonadism in accordance with testosterone circadian rhythm

The problem is, this is a modified study from 2008 by the same main author and it hasn't gained any traction by now: Testosterone Ointment (Glowmin) and Its Clinical Efficacy in Late-Onset Hypogonadism Patients

A few points:

• both studies are on already hypogonadal men, there may be more suppression on men with normal testosterone because there is more to suppress.
• the 2008 study used 3mg T twice daily, the 2018 study used 3mg T only once daily. The authors report that the twice daily application did decrease LH.
• patient improvement was measured by Aging Male Symptoms questionnaire which includes 15 questions many of which PSYCHOLOGICAL. There was no placebo control in both studies to evaluate if the improvement is just a psychological placebo effect.
• I don't have access to the full pdfs of the first study but if the authors are also the manufacturers of the cream, there will be an obvious bias to publish favorable results.

 

[sammmy]

The Glowmin ointment does not contain water and has the typical hydrogenated castor oil that is also used in the oral T formulations:

https://search.jsm-db.info/sp_en/detail.php?txtID=4956124000001

Per 100g of the ointment contains the following active ingredients:

・Active Ingredients　Per 100g composition　Nature
・Testosterone　1 g　Male hormone

Excipients: vaseline, stearyl alcohol, glyceryl monostearate, polyoxyethylene hydrogenated castor oil 60, propylene glycol, methyl paraoxybenzoate, propyl paraoxybenzoate.

I find it a bit questionable that the ointment is recommended for premature ejaculation. I thought a testosterone boost would make premature ejaculation worse:

• Indication
  
  The neurasthenic symptoms of the sexual organs by the lack of male hormone secretion.
  premature ejaculation, impotence, sexual desire lack, a sexual feeling decline, oneirogmus, testicles omission symptom, congenital testicles growth failure.
  The hiding testicles which a gonadal hormone of pituitary gland does not work for.
  Woman private parts alopecia, secretion restraint of the mother's milk.
  ((Definition of terms))
  (Erectile disturbance) means weakening of erectile function.
  (Impotence) means erectile dysfunction.
  (Oneirogmus)means a symptom to ejaculate while erection is insufficient.
  (Hiding testicles) means the symptoms that the testicles stop in abdomen.

 

[WhatSayYou89]

Most guys don't have issues even after several years and even decades. For the record on TRT you're not 100 percent shutdown as far as LH and FSH are concerned, that takes many decades.

Something I’ve always wondered does the testosterone level determine how much you’re shutdown?

For example, if your test levels stays over 1000 even at trough then your body is most likely gonna say, well were all set here we don’t need to do anything.

But if you’re let’s say on more average ranges of let’s say 700 peak 500 trough. Does your body start to pump the LH more to kick the numbers up?

On that 2nd part I would assume it wouldn’t make much of a difference because if so then your body would have already stepped on the gas before getting on trt when seeing your levels at the pre trt numbers of 250 or whatever.

So as long as your levels are over what your body has determined as your testosterone limit then maybe it’s not going to produce more LH for that testes?