Shallow Testosterone IM versus SubQ Injections - Lab Results

[MarkM]

In no way is it fair to make the statement.....Total T and Free T dropped significantly on SubQ. Total T dropped 26.8% while Free T fell 47.2%. While the SubQ testosterone numbers are not terrible, they are much lower that the testosterone on shallow IM

The piss poor direct immunoassay is inaccurate.....plain and simple.

Again your TT dropped 277 ng/dL and SHBG barely budged.....highly doubtful your FT was cut in almost half.

Sick n tired of people on here claiming this and that yet they are not thorough with lab work.

Using accurate assays is critical.

Is it truly a fair assessment comparing results using inaccurate assays let alone 2 years strictly IM vs 9.5 weeks sub-q?

Would you have felt even better 3-4 months in?

Only time would tell.

Well, it was not my intent to run my study for 2 years, nor for three of four months. It was for 9 to 10 weeks and that is what I did. If you wish to run studies that you partake for 3 to 4 months or 2 years, go for it.

But, guess what? I ran this study for me, not you. I did it my way and whether you like it or not, I feel just fine about the steps I took to remove variables. As long as I am happy knowing what all the facts are then I'm good with that. I really don't care if you agree or not.

For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

 

[madman]

Well, it was not my intent to run my study for 2 years, nor for three of four months. It was for 9 to 10 weeks and that is what I did. If you wish to run studies that you partake for 3 to 4 months or 2 years, go for it.

But, guess what? I ran this study for me, not you. I did it my way and whether you like it or not, I feel just fine about the steps I took to remove variables. As long as I am happy knowing what all the facts are then I'm good with that. I really don't care if you agree or not.

For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

Well, it was not my intent to run my study for 2 years, nor for three of four months. It was for 9 to 10 weeks and that is what I did. If you wish to run studies that you partake for 3 to 4 months or 2 years, go for it.

2 years LOL.

Regarding how one truly feels when tweaking a protocol you very well know that 12 weeks has been stated numerous times over the years!


But, guess what? I ran this study for me, not you. I did it my way and whether you like it or not, I feel just fine about the steps I took to remove variables. As long as I am happy knowing what all the facts are then I'm good with that. I really don't care if you agree or not.

Like I said you put in the effort and I applaud you but the s**t kicker of the trial was comparing labs using inaccurate assays especially FT.

Yes, at least you had given it 9.5 weeks.....longer than most but would prefer to give a protocol 12 weeks to make a fair assessment let alone for one to claim success or failure on such.

You should have known better that when it comes to testing using accurate assays is critical yet you turned a blind eye as do many others.

No excuse as you have been on the forum long enough.


For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

Sad you feel that way and I apologize if I come across as harsh as you should very well know I am str8 to the point.

I am going to pick apart flaws I see that need to be pointed out to prevent people from making the same mistakes.

You used inaccurate assays plain and simple.

 

[tareload]

For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

You don't have to defend yourself. I am as picky as they come and you did a great job with the experiment from a PK standpoint. There are well-respected Doctors (well known on here) that use the direct RIA fT method and as has been pointed out nth number of times it's nothing more than a windsock at best. That doesn't stop them; they are set in their ways.

With the data you shared if one wants they can take your TT and SHBG (and albumin) and calculate your fT till the cows come home with whatever method they desire. I've still got a running bet with @madman that harmonized fT will come out closer to Vermeulen than tru-T but I don't know and he doesn't know either. Your TT method is just fine given your absolute numerical position in range (value) and you stayed consistent with the assay. I appreciate your time.

In fact, if you look at your bioavailable T values, that's where they came from... Vermeulen method:

Wasn't able to reconcile your free T %tiles with what you posted above. Clearly they aren't derived from direct fT numbers and TT .

 

[MarkM]

Well, it was not my intent to run my study for 2 years, nor for three of four months. It was for 9 to 10 weeks and that is what I did. If you wish to run studies that you partake for 3 to 4 months or 2 years, go for it.

2 years LOL.

Regarding how one truly feels when tweaking a protocol you very well know that 12 weeks has been stated numerous times over the years!


But, guess what? I ran this study for me, not you. I did it my way and whether you like it or not, I feel just fine about the steps I took to remove variables. As long as I am happy knowing what all the facts are then I'm good with that. I really don't care if you agree or not.

Like I said you put in the effort and I applaud you but the s**t kicker of the trial was comparing labs using inaccurate assays especially FT.

Yes, at least you had given it 9.5 weeks.....longer than most but would prefer to give a protocol 12 weeks to make a fair assessment let alone for one to claim success or failure on such.

You should have known better that when it comes to testing using accurate assays is critical yet you turned a blind eye as do many others.

No excuse as you have been on the forum long enough.


For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

Sad you feel that way and I apologize if I come across as harsh as you should very well know I am str8 to the point.

I am going to pick apart flaws I see that need to be pointed out to prevent people from making the same mistakes.

You used inaccurate assays plain and simple.

I've never read once that one should use 12 weeks when changing a protocol, but I haven't read every post on this site. You don't come across as harsh, you come across like an ass. Sorry if that comes across as harsh.

You took a well meaning post and turned it into a piss poor pissing contest. Thank you.

 

[MarkM]

You don't have to defend yourself. I am as picky as they come and you did a great job with the experiment from a PK standpoint. There are well-respected Doctors (well known on here) that use the direct RIA fT method and as has been pointed out nth number of times it's nothing more than a windsock at best. That doesn't stop them; they are set in their ways.

With the data you shared if one wants they can take your TT and SHBG (and albumin) and calculate your fT till the cows come home with whatever method they desire. I've still got a running bet with @madman that harmonized fT will come out closer to Vermeulen than tru-T but I don't know and he doesn't know either. Your TT method is just fine given your absolute numerical position in range (value) and you stayed consistent with the assay. I appreciate your time.

In fact, if you look at your bioavailable T values, that's where they came from... Vermeulen method:

View attachment 17393
View attachment 17394
Wasn't able to reconcile your free T %tiles with what you posted above. Clearly they aren't derived from direct fT numbers and TT .

The TT and Free T numbers were the lab numbers and I did the division to get the %tile. My albumin was 4.0 although I know this calculator uses 4.3. I just change it to the actual. Thanks

 

[tareload]

The TT and Free T numbers were the lab numbers and I did the division to get the %tile. My albumin was 4.0 although I know this calculator uses 4.3. I just change it to the actual. Thanks

Thanks for explaining your approach. Just so you understand how absurd the direct fT numbers are...

Take your June 7, 2021 column:

TT = 1055 ng/dl
direct fT = 31.6 pg/ml = 3.16 ng/dl

Making sure both measurements are with same units...

3.16/1055 = 0.300%

For second column...
1.67/778 = 0.215%

Typically the direct fT method gives a fT measurement that's 6-10x lower than more accurate ED/UF measurement or even estimate using Vermeulen calculated fT.

I see what you did though, you took the direct fT numbers and used units of ng/dl instead of pg/ml. But when you account for the actually factor of 10, you can see the direct fT method gives you a measurement that's correlated with fT but not actually fT (or what we think fT is ).

See here for a little more info:

Response from LabCorp About Their Incorrect Unit Usages For Their Free Testosterone - Direct - Test

I've been irked for a year by the apparent incorrect unit usage for the particular Free Testosterone test mentioned above. I periodically reach out to whatever relevant executive I can find. No luck for months until the below correspondence. In brief his explanation doesn't hold up in my view...

www.excelmale.com

 

[MarkM]

Thanks for explaining your approach. Just so you understand how absurd the direct fT numbers are...

Take your June 7, 2021 column:

TT = 1055 ng/dl
direct fT = 31.6 pg/ml = 3.16 ng/dl

Making sure both measurements are with same units...

3.16/1055 = 0.300%

For second column...
1.67/778 = 0.215%

Typically the direct fT method gives a fT measurement that's 6-10x lower than more accurate ED/UF measurement or even estimate using Vermeulen calculated fT.

I see what you did though, you took the direct fT numbers and used units of ng/dl instead of pg/ml. But when you account for the actually factor of 10, you can see the direct fT method gives you a measurement that's correlated with fT but not actually fT (or what we think fT is ).

See here for a little more info:

Response from LabCorp About Their Incorrect Unit Usages For Their Free Testosterone - Direct - Test

I've been irked for a year by the apparent incorrect unit usage for the particular Free Testosterone test mentioned above. I periodically reach out to whatever relevant executive I can find. No luck for months until the below correspondence. In brief his explanation doesn't hold up in my view...

www.excelmale.com

Thank you sir.

 

[tareload]

For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

And BTW, I'd appreciate it if you continue to share information (especially the careful way you did it) with the forum. I know it's a lot of work but I appreciate your time and thank you for your post.

 

[MarkM]

And BTW, I'd appreciate it if you continue to share information (especially the careful way you did it) with the forum. I know it's a lot of work but I appreciate your time and thank you for your post.

I sincerely appreciate your input and comment Thank you. You're the type others can learn from.

 

[S1W]

Well, it was not my intent to run my study for 2 years, nor for three of four months. It was for 9 to 10 weeks and that is what I did. If you wish to run studies that you partake for 3 to 4 months or 2 years, go for it.

But, guess what? I ran this study for me, not you. I did it my way and whether you like it or not, I feel just fine about the steps I took to remove variables. As long as I am happy knowing what all the facts are then I'm good with that. I really don't care if you agree or not.

For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

I appreciate your input here and I hope that you will stick around. I’m certain I’m not the only one.

I also understand your reaction/how you feel about the tone used in replies to your post - in this case, I’m certain that you’re not the only one.

 

[Gman86]

Well, it was not my intent to run my study for 2 years, nor for three of four months. It was for 9 to 10 weeks and that is what I did. If you wish to run studies that you partake for 3 to 4 months or 2 years, go for it.

But, guess what? I ran this study for me, not you. I did it my way and whether you like it or not, I feel just fine about the steps I took to remove variables. As long as I am happy knowing what all the facts are then I'm good with that. I really don't care if you agree or not.

For the record, in the future, I will no longer share information with this forum. instead of it being a sharing situation I feel like I have to defend myself which is bullshit.

Nah man, don’t get discouraged. U just haven’t been part of this forum long enough to realize how it works. But I’ll get u up to speed. Ur doing everything correct, except u made the mistake of engaging with madman. Anyone that’s been on this forum long enough knows to just ignore him. Don’t ever engage with him. All he’s gonna do is be negative about everything u do or say and argue with u until u come to ur senses and stop responding. He’s only good for posting studies. So by all means, read the studies he posts if u want, but going forward, just do what the rest of us do, ignore him and don’t reply to anything he says to u. U didn’t know, so it’s an honest mistake. The rest of us are well aware how to deal with him. But going forward just keep doing what ur doing, ur a great addition to this forum and the community, but just ignore madman anytime he says something to u. I know it’s not easy lol, but just don’t engage, and u’ll be good. Nothing good comes from talking to him. It’s just a waste of time, and I’d hate to see him discourage people like u from contributing. He’ll obv comment on this reply, but just ignore it, like I will.

 

[MarkM]

Nah man, don’t get discouraged. U just haven’t been part of this forum long enough to realize how it works. But I’ll get u up to speed. Ur doing everything correct, except u made the mistake of engaging with madman. Anyone that’s been on this forum long enough knows to just ignore him. Don’t ever engage with him. All he’s gonna do is be negative about everything u do or say and argue with u until u come to ur senses and stop responding. He’s only good for posting studies. So by all means, read the studies he posts if u want, but going forward, just do what the rest of us do, ignore him and don’t reply to anything he says to u. U didn’t know, so it’s an honest mistake. The rest of us are well aware how to deal with him. But going forward just keep doing what ur doing, ur a great addition to this forum and the community, but just ignore madman anytime he says something to u. I know it’s not easy lol, but just don’t engage, and u’ll be good. Nothing good comes from talking to him. It’s just a waste of time, and I’d hate to see him discourage people like u from contributing. He’ll obv comment on this reply, but just ignore it, like I will.

Thanks Gman. I actually joined in April 2018 and was fairly active but I got dialed in and got tired of reading the bashing from a mod every time I got on so I just stopped coming around. I wasn’t being bashed on but many others were. Recently I thought I’d pop back in but I’ve found that somethings never change.

Life is good, I feel healthy, I’m in good shape and I don’t have time for that crap. I can take criticism but not bashing. I’m not one to be belittled, it’s not in my nature.

Is there a delete account button around here? I can’t find one.

 

[madman]

I've never read once that one should use 12 weeks when changing a protocol, but I haven't read every post on this site. You don't come across as harsh, you come across like an ass. Sorry if that comes across as harsh.

You took a well meaning post and turned it into a piss poor pissing contest. Thank you.

I actually joined in April 2018 and was fairly active but I got dialed in and got tired of reading the bashing from a mod every time I got on so I just stopped coming around. I wasn’t being bashed on but many others were.

What against those bruh's spewing the bullshit getting put in their place?

You know the ones with that herd mentality that come and go!

Some of them still lurking on here.


I really don't care if you agree or not.

Nor do some others but I am not going to get bent out of shape over it let alone
stomp off the forum.

You gonna fold that quick for getting called out on your thread!

Comparing labs using inaccurate assays especially FT.

Far from what one would consider a fair comparison.....no?

*Total T and Free T dropped significantly on SubQ. Total T dropped 26.8% while Free T fell 47.2%. While the SubQ testosterone numbers are not terrible, they are much lower that the testosterone on shallow IM

Funny how quick one flips.

At least now I know what side of the lane you reside in.

 

[MarkM]

Your so full of yourself it’s not funny. I’ll just ignore you going forward. This is just a damn forum, not anything more, It, especially you, aren't worth it or deserve my time and effort.

 

[madman]

Nah man, don’t get discouraged. U just haven’t been part of this forum long enough to realize how it works. But I’ll get u up to speed. Ur doing everything correct, except u made the mistake of engaging with madman. Anyone that’s been on this forum long enough knows to just ignore him. Don’t ever engage with him. All he’s gonna do is be negative about everything u do or say and argue with u until u come to ur senses and stop responding. He’s only good for posting studies. So by all means, read the studies he posts if u want, but going forward, just do what the rest of us do, ignore him and don’t reply to anything he says to u. U didn’t know, so it’s an honest mistake. The rest of us are well aware how to deal with him. But going forward just keep doing what ur doing, ur a great addition to this forum and the community, but just ignore madman anytime he says something to u. I know it’s not easy lol, but just don’t engage, and u’ll be good. Nothing good comes from talking to him. It’s just a waste of time, and I’d hate to see him discourage people like u from contributing. He’ll obv comment on this reply, but just ignore it, like I will.

Told you from the get-go.....I see right thru u BRUH!

That's what happens when you spend all your time lurking on those bro-forums you know the ones filled with those blast/cruisers and all that he said she said bullshit.

We know who u roll with, playing both sides of the field.....LMFAO!

 

[tareload]

Is there a delete account button around here?

You could do a lot worse. This really is the best forum I've come across with the most educated members.

Lots of amazing contributions on here. And as long as you guys all agree with me you are welcome to stay as long as you'd like (I kid ) .

Thank you @Nelson Vergel for this venue.

For example, try posting a link to another forum on TNation. Not going to fly. The mods are pretty relaxed and tons of info on here. Thank you Mods as well. I appreciate it.

 

[tareload]

bro-forums you know the ones filled with those blast/cruisers

Wow, in my dreams. I can't even run highish normal in range without apparent impact on my heart (diastolic dysfunction). If guys would only better appreciate what they may be getting themselves into following these "optimization /TOT" protocols after a few years....

I appreciate the awareness you and @Cataceous bring to this issue.

Remember guys, supraphysiologic doesn't necessarily mean running above reference range.

NB.

 

[madman]

Your so full of yourself it’s not funny. I’ll just ignore you going forward. This is just a damn forum, not anything more, It, especially you, aren't worth it or deserve my time and effort.

It, especially you, aren't worth it or deserve my time and effort.

Grown-ass man whining for getting called out.

This is just a damn forum, not anything more,

Exactly!

Everyone bring your A-game and keep your head up high.

 

[Gman86]

Your so full of yourself it’s not funny. I’ll just ignore you going forward. This is just a damn forum, not anything more, It, especially you, aren't worth it or deserve my time and effort.

Ya other than madman there was Vince Carter who was another negative nancy that rarely had anything nice to say and was discouraging to deal with. Luckily he was booted from the forum. How madman hasn’t gotten kicked out for the things he says to people is beyond me. But again, I know it’s not easy, but just ignore madman, and whoever else tries to just be negative and bash anything someone posts, and simply don’t engage with them. Everyone here is mostly great and just trying to learn, teach and support the other members. I really enjoy having u a part of the forum and ur anecdotes and ur willingness to experiment. Don’t let a couple bad eggs ruin ur experience and discourage u from contributing and helping others here, including myself. I’ve learned a lot from ur experiments/ anecdotes, and hope u stick around

 

[Willyt]

How do I feel? I feel pretty good but not as good as I felt on the shallow IM injections. I don't feel like I have quite the energy I had on shallow IM. I've never had an acne problem but I did notice some small acne on my chest and back that I did not have on the shallow IM. I didn't like that.

Getting back to the original post, did you notice any effect on your libido when you switched to subq considering the significant drop in TT/FT?