Question for guys doing high dose cypionate

[HealthMan]

Too many TRT users worry too much about numbers and not how they feel. The higher the better thinking prevails most of the time. I think if patients were not allowed to see their labwork a lot of them would be surprised how well they feel on much lower dosages. It is all about balance and homeostasis. I always thought i would only feel good above 1000 TT (because when i started i was above 1000 TT and felt great). I am not sure where is my TT now but i drastically reduced my testosterone dosage and I am surprised on how well i feel. No difference at the gym. Energy is still great but different (energy is more natural now. At high TT levels it felt like my adrenaline was always high). Libido is better. I am sleeping wayyy better now. Erection quality is way better. And i was able to stop anastrozole. And hopefully control my HCT (big Question mark here).
I am also starting to believe that keeping peak and trough within physiological range should be able to control most of the TRT related side effects. Sure. All these are manageable. If your estradiol is high take an AI. If HCT is high donate blood. But why bother with these if you can feel good at lower dosages and less side/ no side effects?

 

[sh1973]

Great post Healthman, if you don't mind me asking where do you keep your levels and what dose are you using?

 

[HealthMan]

Great post Healthman, if you don't mind me asking where do you keep your levels and what dose are you using?

I dropped my dosage from 180mg a week to 110mg a week. I was having issues with iron/HCT. At 180mg i was close to 1000 TT and 33 FT. When i started TRT my TT was around 1200 and FT around 34 with 140mg of testosterone a week (however I was taking a lot more DHEA and Pregnenolone).
Since i changed my protocol i havent tested my hormones levels yet. But based on past lab results i guess my TT should be around 600-700 and FT 17-20.
I will get blood work done is 2 mths to check hematocrit and iron. I feel so good that i am not really curious about my TT levels. I really stopped chasing numbers and now i listen to my body.

 

[sh1973]

Sounds great, I'm glad you're feeling good, like you said that's all that matters.

 

[Kaliman911]

Curious about something. If Test Cyp takes 24-48 hrs to peak, and one injects E3.5D, would testing the day of your injection, in the a.m., before your afternoon injection, really give you a true trough? Given half life is 8 days for Test Cyp. I feel like I'm not really testing a deep trough and the peaks would not be too far from that either. Also considering SHBG, which is in the higher range for me. I do feel great, but as it has been mentioned here a lot, it is probably better to be at that “feel good state” with the minimum amount possible. So, I'm considering slightly lowering my dose to experiment.
By the way, I don't think there is any evidence that running slightly higher above the range for TT and fT is detrimental in the long run. Even looking at bodybuilders of the classic era like Arnold, Columbo, Lou Ferrigno, and even Sly and many others, which I'm pretty sure they were running Test levels way above ranges, and I don't see them struggling with health issues. I know Arnold had a heart incident, but how do you know for sure it was related to anabolics? Many people, including drug free athletes, have had heart issues for some reason or another. Anyway, just wondering.

 

[madman]

I'm a little confused. What exactly do you mean by toasting your organs or not healthy long term?? I completely agree that guys that cycle Test at very high doses >2000ng T and combine with anabolics are going to have detrimental problems with organs, enlarged liver, enlarged heart, etc.

However, if someone is on TRT and say their levels at trough are 1400ng, (assume this is a 200mg or 250mg dose) and the person feels fantastic, no Adex required, Labs are taken at least once per year (possibly twice or more) and indicate no issues (maybe high hematocrit, but that can be debatable as a real issue), no high blood pressure, PSA in check, all other levels within range from CBC. And this isn't a new protocol, say > 2 years.

What is so horrible about the above? If labs are good what damage is being done to internal organs or long term damage?

I've been on 250mg/ml Tcyp split into 2 doses now for over 2 years and feel absolutely fantastic. Labs are all good, no E2 symptoms, Hemocrit slightly high and I've donated, but considering holding off on next donation to see where levels go. I'm 43 and hope to live a long time, so what is so unhealthy on this protocol other than just saying high Free T levels aren't normal and your causing your body damage??

Feelinglost is a little over dramatic some times! Toasting organs not going to ever happen unless one was abusing the c-17 alpha alkylated orals (methyltestosterone,stanozolol (winstrol), oxandrolone (anavar), methandrostenolone (dianabol), oxymetholone (anadrol), fluoxymesterone (halotestin).

As far as being not healthy no one can say that having a total t trough slightly above the top end of the physiological range is going to cause long term health issues/side effects especially if some one is monitoring blood work and making sure all health markers are in a healthy range.

The purpose of the discussion is regarding trt which the goal is to improve/relieve the patients symptoms of low testosterone ( low energy/drive, low libido/ poor erectile health and function, negative mood (depression,anxiety,anger and irritability, poor concentration), increase in adipose and loss muscle/strength and overall well being.

Trt is replacement of physiological testosterone levels and whether that requires one needing to reach mid-normal physiological levels or high-normal physiological levels along with a healthy free t level and of course e2 in a healthy range to achieve relief of low t symptoms.

Ranges are in place for a reason as guidelines to differentiate between low/high levels.

Health young males on average produce 6-7 mg of testosterone daily and usually have total t levels in the 600-800 ng/dl range and that is at peak as due to the natural circadian rythm testosterone levels peak in the early am and slowly decline later in the day.

Point that needs to be stressed is most males will experience relief from low t symptoms having a total t trough above 500 ng/dl (along with a healthy free t) and others may need to be some what higher.

Highly doubtful anyone would need a trough above >900 ng/dl to notice improvements in low t symptoms.

The reason there is individual variability regarding t levels comes down to ones genetics and sensitivity of the AR (androgen receptor), polymorphism of the AR and CAG repeat length (short/long) and of course shbg will play a strong role.

As far as side effects regarding the cosmetic sides caused from testosterones metabolite dht (dihydrotestosterone)- oily skin/acne,MPH (male pattern hair loss), increase body/facial hair and effects on the prostate and estrogen- water retention,gyno,effects on prostate at trt doses these are common to a certain degree but ones genetics will have the final say as to whether one experiences them.

As some even on low doses of t with levels in the mid/normal physiological range will still experience side effects.

As far as hemoglobin/hematocrit there are many factors involved whether higher physiological peaks of t, e2, dht, new epo setpoint, decreased hepcidin some due to genetics and possibly polymorphism of the AR and whether one posses short or long CAG repeat lengths may still have issues with hemoglobin/hematocrit even at lower doses/physiological levels of testosterone.

As far as estradiol there are also many factors involved whether excess t especially supra-physiological peaks, ones body fat levels, liver health/function, diet/environmental factors ones genetics will always play a strong role as some will always have e2 issues regardless of testosterone dose/injection frequency as they are genetically high converters of t----->e2.

Sure one can donate blood to control hemoglobin/hematocrit but there is a fine line between running into issues with low ferritin/iron and one can use aromatase inhibitors if e2 can not be controlled and is problematic in causing one negative symptoms.

Trt should be about using the lowest amount of testosterone to see improvement/relief of low t symptoms plain and simple and if one searches the literature many men achieve relief from low t symptoms by having testosterone levels in the physiological range whether mid-normal or high/normal.

Supra-physiological ranges are in no way needed to experience relief from low t symptoms and if anything the sole purpose of using supra-physiological levels would be solely for gaining muscle/strength.

If one says they need to be above the top end of the physiological range to notice improvements in low t symptoms than testosterone is not the issue and one would need to address thyroid/adrenals or other underlying health issues.

 

[sh1973]

Very good post madman.

 

[Vince Carter]

madman to the rescue.

 

[Vince Carter]

Curious about something. If Test Cyp takes 24-48 hrs to peak, and one injects E3.5D, would testing the day of your injection, in the a.m., before your afternoon injection, really give you a trough?

SHBG is going to in most every case wipeout the half-life especially in a low SHBG guy.

 

[medvetz63]

That's a good point about lab ranges, they're representative of the population the lab is testing, they're not set by a DR, scientist or other authority to say this is good. Or bad.

But since synthetic testosterone has always been available since the 1940s and there has since that time always been a percentage of the populace that uses it to improve their physical performance for either professional or personal reasons is it not quite possible that those higher ranges that the labs use to set their upper and lower limits have been boosted up atificially from steroid users who get tested at the labs?
The labs don't know the personal history of the people who come to get tested and at every lab in any given developed country there has to be a steady flow of people whose testosterone levels are from injections, gels, pills, etc., and not natural production and I imagine that that has to have some sort of influence on the statistics that are used to decide what's considered the upper and lower "normal" ranges.

 

[FeelingLost]

But since synthetic testosterone has always been available since the 1940s and there has since that time always been a percentage of the populace that uses it to improve their physical performance for either professional or personal reasons is it not quite possible that those higher ranges that the labs use to set their upper and lower limits have been boosted up atificially from steroid users who get tested at the labs?
The labs don't know the personal history of the people who come to get tested and at every lab in any given developed country there has to be a steady flow of people whose testosterone levels are from injections, gels, pills, etc., and not natural production and I imagine that that has to have some sort of influence on the statistics that are used to decide what's considered the upper and lower "normal" ranges.

I respectfully disagree. No T measurement during a trial or study will be T alone. It is really easy to see who is cheating.
Can you tell from these numbers I take tes?


ans key: LH FSH

 

[RLW]

But since synthetic testosterone has always been available since the 1940s and there has since that time always been a percentage of the populace that uses it to improve their physical performance for either professional or personal reasons is it not quite possible that those higher ranges that the labs use to set their upper and lower limits have been boosted up atificially from steroid users who get tested at the labs?
The labs don't know the personal history of the people who come to get tested and at every lab in any given developed country there has to be a steady flow of people whose testosterone levels are from injections, gels, pills, etc., and not natural production and I imagine that that has to have some sort of influence on the statistics that are used to decide what's considered the upper and lower "normal" ranges.

What percentage of the population would you assume uses testosterone to improve physical appearance and athletic performance? I would have to imagine it is less than 5% of guys and they threw out the top 5%. In addition to that many of the guys who actually check their labs while doing steroids also check them when they come off which would result in low numbers.

If it's entirely random just from people going to the lab you have to assume that more people are getting their labs done because they don't feel quite as awesome as they think they should compared to the number of guys using testosterone. I don't personally know anyone who has had their testosterone checked when they are young and feeling good.

Whats really interesting is that according to some studies men's testosterone on average has gone down significantly in comparison to 40 or 50 years ago.

 

[Vince Carter]

I respectfully disagree. No T measurement during a trial or study will be T alone. It is really easy to see who is cheating.
Can you tell from these numbers I take tes?


ans key: LH FSH

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard as you're also showing all of that you can't select the proper testing to begin with so I wouldn't trumpet it around that you're on test and are still pulling LH/FSH because those are known to be zero any way so there's no reason to pay for and pull those, and then the obvious wrong E test. So it's a great try but you might try harder next time you want to look "smart" in front of people trying to convince them you know what's up.

 

[Vince Carter]

But since synthetic testosterone has always been available since the 1940s and there has since that time always been a percentage of the populace that uses it to improve their physical performance for either professional or personal reasons is it not quite possible that those higher ranges that the labs use to set their upper and lower limits have been boosted up atificially from steroid users who get tested at the labs?
The labs don't know the personal history of the people who come to get tested and at every lab in any given developed country there has to be a steady flow of people whose testosterone levels are from injections, gels, pills, etc., and not natural production and I imagine that that has to have some sort of influence on the statistics that are used to decide what's considered the upper and lower "normal" ranges.

Fair hypothesis to where the upper limits are coming from, probably no one "natural" is pulling an 1197, though enough guys to have established that through testing are in the population being tested. Just as in the lower limit recently being lowered from 300 I think to the 200's, more and more guys presenting as low T/Hypogonadal are possibly responsible for the change though it counters by making the threshold lower for treatment.

 

[sh1973]

I absolutely agree Vince, I’d put a wager down that someone natural being at 1197ng is about as likely as being struck by lightning. I don’t believe it for a second and there’s ZERO proof of it anywhere

 

[FeelingLost]

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard as you're also showing all of that you can't select the proper testing to begin with so I wouldn't trumpet it around that you're on test and are still pulling LH/FSH because those are known to be zero any way so there's no reason to pay for and pull those, and then the obvious wrong E test. So it's a great try but you might try harder next time you want to look "smart" in front of people trying to convince them you know what's up.

Would you stop trolling me Vince Carter. I have already filed one complaint to the mods for your trolling.

This blood test was back when my PCP tryed to do TRT. I had no say in what tests were run. I've been with Defy for over 8 months.

The example above was to show LH and FSH were 0 which is what you get when you are on T that's all. Now leave me the hell alone I am not interested in anything you have to say.

 

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

I absolutely agree Vince, I’d put a wager down that someone natural being at 1197ng is about as likely as being struck by lightning. I don’t believe it for a second and there’s ZERO proof of it anywhere

Unless the guys at Lab Corp were morons, I doubt they would test these levels without including LH/FSH. Anyone who's LH/FSH are in tact would not be on trt.

 

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

What percentage of the population would you assume uses testosterone to improve physical appearance and athletic performance? I would have to imagine it is less than 5% of guys and they threw out the top 5%. In addition to that many of the guys who actually check their labs while doing steroids also check them when they come off which would result in low numbers.

If it's entirely random just from people going to the lab you have to assume that more people are getting their labs done because they don't feel quite as awesome as they think they should compared to the number of guys using testosterone. I don't personally know anyone who has had their testosterone checked when they are young and feeling good.

Whats really interesting is that according to some studies men's testosterone on average has gone down significantly in comparison to 40 or 50 years ago.

They actually throw out the top 2.5%, not the top 5.

 

[rfhowell68]

50yrs old
Currently
240mg cyp. weekly
0.5 mg anastrozole weekly
I also take meds for high bp.
Donate dubble red every 4 months
Total T 380 Free T 11

 

[Vince Carter]

50yrs old
Currently
240mg cyp. weekly
0.5 mg anastrozole weekly
I also take meds for high bp.
Donate dubble red every 4 months
Total T 380 Free T 11

What.....?