Question for guys doing high dose cypionate

[sh1973]

The one in 2016.

 

[RLW]

Good reply Vince. Just think about it, none of us, or 99.9% of us have never at any point in our lives had total t over 1000ng. I had to have a hormonal panel in my mid 20s for another reason other than TRT and my total level was 770ng early morning. This point in my life I wouldn't have changed a thing and libido was thru the roof. You don't see teenagers taking arimidex or donating blood. You seem like a sensible and knowledgable guy, but you have to admit, its absolutely asinine to have a 60y/o man with a t level of 1400ng and I have seen this countless times. We didn't need levels like this at 18y/o and sure as hell don't need them at 50-60y/o. I can't help but believe guys running these high number will eventually pay the price. Look at Dr Crisler, picture of good health, just had a massive heart attack. I don't know what he does as far as dosing and its none of my business, but 60y/o men don't have physiques like that with 600ng t levels. I totally agree with you, when you say that we as a community need to take a more cautious approach. Take the shbg theory for example, you always here you have to have high levels to overcome it to feel better. In my case and several others I've talked to over the years, this ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT WORK. I think we as a community and the good doctors that want to help guys like us will eventually figure out better ways to treat hormonal deficiencies, but we are not there now, not by a long shot.

While I agree that taking too high a dose is probably bad for you, the idea that 99% of guys have never been over 1000 is false. When Labcorp came up with their previous normal range which topped out at 1197 they did so by using data from thousands of guys in age from like 20yr to 80yrs old. They threw out the top 5% so right off the bat 5% of guys were over 1200. I assume there would have been a larger percent of guys between 1000 and 1200. I don't think there is any way to determine if that's healthy or not because there are so many other factors, but even with the standard rate of decline in testosterone levels with age there would be a reasonable percentage of guys around 1000 even in their 40's and 50's.

 

[Vince Carter]

That's a good point about lab ranges, they're representative of the population the lab is testing, they're not set by a DR, scientist or other authority to say this is good. Or bad.

 

[sh1973]

Very good points RLW. There are also studies out there testing of numerous men at various ages regarding free t concentrations and the majority of men age 20-30 are in the 10-14ng range. At 160mg per week 80x2 my free t was 35ng and total t was 1375ng at trough, thats just too damn much. I've asked every doctor I've had over the years on TRT, including 3 urologists, 2 endocrinologists, and 4 general physicians that have never measured anyone over 1000ng, even testing that was done for other disorders than hypogonadism. My current urologist which is 61y/o and been treating patients for 29 years states the vast majority of his patients over the years have had levels in the 400-650ng range. With that said I'm sure there are and have been men over the years with freakishly high t levels, but its certainly a small percentage. I'm by no means bashing TRT, honestly I feel like death off of it. I think it's great we can have a discussion like this on here without someone getting pissed or taking the post down. I just hope that more guys with experiences like mine can come on here to try to find a resolution to their problems without being criticized or having their post taken down.

 

[Nashtide]

While I agree that taking too high a dose is probably bad for you, the idea that 99% of guys have never been over 1000 is false. When Labcorp came up with their previous normal range which topped out at 1197 they did so by using data from thousands of guys in age from like 20yr to 80yrs old. They threw out the top 5% so right off the bat 5% of guys were over 1200. I assume there would have been a larger percent of guys between 1000 and 1200. I don't think there is any way to determine if that's healthy or not because there are so many other factors, but even with the standard rate of decline in testosterone levels with age there would be a reasonable percentage of guys around 1000 even in their 40's and 50's.

I also think we need to keep in mind that there is a difference between a guy with high natural T his whole life and a guy suffering from low T for years. The low T guy then starts TRT and goes from low to very high. Their bodies are not used to that much T and may not handle the sudden changes well health wise. Our bodies react differently to things they become adjusted to naturally and sudden changes.

 

[Saul]

Good Input Mr. Carter. I try to keep track in my head about the problems people have based on forum posts (mostly so I can avoid problems) and it does seem like most of the issues are E2 (too high or crashed, emotional issues), hypocrite (too high or too many donations), or gynecomastia (usually not occurring though) related. Seems that many of those could avoided with a prudent dose.

My only other comments is that when I read about some of the high levels (trough test levels at upper limiting - peak way over limit) from T mill doctors or event people who want to 'maximize' or feel better, I wonder if over time this is not going to work to the detriment of TRT. If health issues do develop, will TRT take the blame, even though the T levels were maintained (even under Dr. care) at too high a level or E2 levels were not monitored. Seems like TRT will get the blame, without consideration of peak being over the normal limits or E2 not kept in check.

 

[RLW]

I also think we need to keep in mind that there is a difference between a guy with high natural T his whole life and a guy suffering from low T for years. The low T guy then starts TRT and goes from low to very high. Their bodies are not used to that much T and may not handle the sudden changes well health wise. Our bodies react differently to things they become adjusted to naturally and sudden changes.

I agree 100%.

 

[RLW]

Very good points RLW. There are also studies out there testing of numerous men at various ages regarding free t concentrations and the majority of men age 20-30 are in the 10-14ng range. At 160mg per week 80x2 my free t was 35ng and total t was 1375ng at trough, thats just too damn much. I've asked every doctor I've had over the years on TRT, including 3 urologists, 2 endocrinologists, and 4 general physicians that have never measured anyone over 1000ng, even testing that was done for other disorders than hypogonadism. My current urologist which is 61y/o and been treating patients for 29 years states the vast majority of his patients over the years have had levels in the 400-650ng range. With that said I'm sure there are and have been men over the years with freakishly high t levels, but its certainly a small percentage. I'm by no means bashing TRT, honestly I feel like death off of it. I think it's great we can have a discussion like this on here without someone getting pissed or taking the post down. I just hope that more guys with experiences like mine can come on here to try to find a resolution to their problems without being criticized or having their post taken down.

I don't doubt at all that most doctors are seeing numbers in the range you listed. The only thing I can think of for the discrepancy between Labcorp findings and many doctors is that I imagine a young guy walking around with a test level of 1100 is never going in to see a doctor and thus it's usually not seen. I have seen guys post online that they had their levels checked prior to using steroids only to find out they are 1200 or higher.

Also, I agree this site is a great resource for TRT and bouncing ideas back and forth. Il

 

[Nashtide]

I don't doubt at all that most doctors are seeing numbers in the range you listed. The only thing I can think of for the discrepancy between Labcorp findings and many doctors is that I imagine a young guy walking around with a test level of 1100 is never going in to see a doctor and thus it's usually not seen. I have seen guys post online that they had their levels checked prior to using steroids only to find out they are 1200 or higher.

Also, I agree this site is a great resource for TRT and bouncing ideas back and forth. Il

When I first began TRT, a guy on one of these forums stated that the goal of TRT was to get your TT and FT in the high range. I thought...isn't the goal of TRT to feel better and not an arbitrary number on a lab test?

 

[sh1973]

Awesome post Saul. That’s one of my concerns as well as far as people abusing test and the fda cracking down on the folks that treat in a responsible manner.

 

[RLW]

When I first began TRT, a guy on one of these forums stated that the goal of TRT was to get your TT and FT in the high range. I thought...isn't the goal of TRT to feel better and not an arbitrary number on a lab test?

Feeling great is exactly the goal of TRT. I'm not advocating for having the highest test level possible, only stating that for some it is probably OK.

 

[Kaliman911]

This post is great and good new information learned. At 43, I’m one of those taking a larger dose of Test Cyp. 160mg weekly divided into two shots E3.5D and 400IU of HCG on days of injection. I have a highish SHBG. My TT at trough (taken day of injection before injecting) is at 1,000 and free T at 24. It is slightly outside the range. After 5 months, I haven’t had any side effects whatsoever. HCT and hmg are at mid range. But I’m not too concerned about it being a bit higher. Apparently there is no correlation between having higher HCT/Hmgb ONLY and cardiovascular events. Now, Polycethimia Vera is another thing. But that’s an increase of all components of the blood. Specially platelets, which are the ones that cause the issues. TRT does not cause Polycithemia Vera according to some studies. Anyway, that’s another sensitive subject that needs more research. Also, my E2 is elevated due to the high dose, but no side effects from it. Not taking an AI, not needed. I feel great and morning wood very often, don’t remember when was the last time I had morning woods before TRT . I think we are all different and respond very differently to what we put in our bodies. Genetics may play a big role on it. Lifestyle and other conditions may affect the protocol as well. It’s hard to say. But if it is not working for you, you may have to find other ways. Maybe a single dose every week or longer might work for you. I know that’s the old, bad protocol, but you said that every time you quit TRT you felt better later on. I don’t know, just saying. Keep trying gels until you find the right one. That delivery system seemed to work better for you. Good luck.

 

[Nashtide]

Feeling great is exactly the goal of TRT. I'm not advocating for having the highest test level possible, only stating that for some it is probably OK.

I wasn't suggesting you were advocating high T doses. I was just remembering the post on another site from a well respected poster. The point of any medication to me is to take the least amount necessary to do the job.

 

[HealthMan]

Worth reminding that most of us measure TT/FT at trough. Depending on injection frequency and SHBG your TT/FT are way higher on average. Probably this is why most of people on TRT have hematocrit issues and need to use anastrozole. At trough they are already way over physiological levels. Peak and average levels are even higher.
Debatable but if you were to keep your FT peak and trough within physiological levels you most likely would have no issues with hematocrit and estradiol.

 

[sh1973]

Worth reminding that most of us measure TT/FT at though. Depending on injection frequency and SHBG your TT/FT are way higher on average. Probably this is why most of people on TRT have hematocrit issues and need to use anastrozole. At trough they are already way over physiological levels. Peak and average levels are even higher.
Debatable but if you were to keep your FT peak and trough within physiological levels you most likely would have no issues with hematocrit and estradiol.

That definitely makes sense healthman

 

[Vince Carter]

Absolutely makes sense to point out that these numbers we're looking at are troughs and how high the peaks, could be.

 

[Periandros]

I do 210 mg test cyp per week. Spilt in 2 doses. I do arimidex .5mgx2 per week and HCG 500x2 per week. My hematocrit and hemoglobin, and blood pressure all in normal range.

 

[Saul]

I do 210 mg test cyp per week. Spilt in 2 doses. I do arimidex .5mgx2 per week and HCG 500x2 per week. My hematocrit and hemoglobin, and blood pressure all in normal range.

Can you share your T and Free T values?

 

[Starplex]

I'm a little confused. What exactly do you mean by toasting your organs or not healthy long term?? I completely agree that guys that cycle Test at very high doses >2000ng T and combine with anabolics are going to have detrimental problems with organs, enlarged liver, enlarged heart, etc.

However, if someone is on TRT and say their levels at trough are 1400ng, (assume this is a 200mg or 250mg dose) and the person feels fantastic, no Adex required, Labs are taken at least once per year (possibly twice or more) and indicate no issues (maybe high hemocrit, but that can be debatable as a real issue), no high blood pressure, PSA in check, all other levels within range from CBC. And this isn't a new protocol, say > 2 years.

What is so horrible about the above? If labs are good what damage is being done to internal organs or long term damage?

I've been on 250mg/ml Tcyp split into 2 doses now for over 2 years and feel absolutely fantastic. Labs are all good, no E2 symptoms, Hemocrit slightly high and I've donated, but considering holding off on next donation to see where levels go. I'm 43 and hope to live a long time, so what is so unhealthy on this protocol other than just saying high Free T levels aren't normal and your causing your body damage??

 

[AbsoluteZ3R0]

I'm a little confused. What exactly do you mean by toasting your organs or not healthy long term?? I completely agree that guys that cycle Test at very high doses >2000ng T and combine with anabolics are going to have detrimental problems with organs, enlarged liver, enlarged heart, etc.

However, if someone is on TRT and say their levels at trough are 1400ng, (assume this is a 200mg or 250mg dose) and the person feels fantastic, no Adex required, Labs are taken at least once per year (possibly twice or more) and indicate no issues (maybe high hemocrit, but that can be debatable as a real issue), no high blood pressure, PSA in check, all other levels within range from CBC. And this isn't a new protocol, say > 2 years.

What is so horrible about the above? If labs are good what damage is being done to internal organs or long term damage?

I've been on 250mg/ml Tcyp split into 2 doses now for over 2 years and feel absolutely fantastic. Labs are all good, no E2 symptoms, Hemocrit slightly high and I've donated, but considering holding off on next donation to see where levels go. I'm 43 and hope to live a long time, so what is so unhealthy on this protocol other than just saying high Free T levels aren't normal and your causing your body damage??

I haven't taken a stance on this, because it's a lot like saying "I drink 4 shots of whiskey every day and I'm perfectly healthy." It's true that some people may have fantastic health and longevity while drinking beyond the daily recommended limit (two drinks a day for men), but that certainly doesn't mean it's healthy. I'm not saying that staying at 250mg year-round is the same as excess drinking, but a similar principle applies, which is that certain doses are known to be safe, while significantly higher doses are known to be problematic. Do keep in mind that 250mg a week is an entry level steroid cycle. Generally speaking, anything above 200 is going to have pronounced anabolic effects, which is usually what clinicians try to avoid, although even a low replacement dose will have some anabolic effects.

On the other hand, I'm inclined to agree with you, because there are certain benefits to possessing "super-human" qualities, and if you're paying a low price (or no price) to possess them, then more power to you. Have you ever tried a lower dose? It is possible that you may actually feel better on less, but you'd have to experiment to find out. I think it's likely that supraphysiological doses of testosterone interact unpredictably with other hormones, perhaps in a deleterious way, but as always, the poison is in the dose. 250mg is not extreme by any means, but it's definitely not testosterone "replacement," in the strictest sense of the word. You're sporting double, or two and a half times the testosterone of an average, healthy twenty year old male.

I don't think you'd know if your heart was enlarged unless you had an echocardiogram done, but if ten years down the line you have one done and everything is fine, then perhaps you really can tolerate that dose indefinitely. It will vary from person to person, but as a general rule, moderation is key.